SDI vs PADI standards

[luvdiving]

I teach PADI. I know another instructor that has switched from PADI to SDI. He said that the certification cards and manuals are cheaper and that the training is easier (on him) because the students are using computers from day one. I'm concerned that his students may not be as prepared as they could be. It's not that I'm pro-PADI as much as I'm pro-students learning.

What is the lowdown on SDI?

Thanks, Ken

PS. Thanks for a great board!

[JoelW]

I stopped into one of my favorite charities today and one of the guys had a stack of SDI OW packets out. Seeing as they are a PADI shop I asked what the differences were between the two. The answer I received is that SDI doesn't do tables, primarily computers, and the OW dives more closely resemble training dives as opposed to go out to a platform and perform skills. Other than that the skills trained are very similar.

I asked about the computer part and was told that most people are diving them anyway and if a new diver is on a trip most likely they are being led around by a divemaster on a set profile. My question was what about going out on a dive boat where the divemaster doesn't get into the water and the pairs are more or less on their own. Didn't get an answer to that one as another customer came in.

JoelW

[DeepSeaDan]

Terrific...another conduit to the burgeoning philosophy that "scuba is easy & oh so simple!!"..."Just follow the magic computer as it guides you on your merry way!!"

yeeesh.

I'm with you Ken. I teach for N.A.U.I. as I like their policy of providing excellent standards while allowing Instructors flexibility in their teaching.

In 1974 my basic course was 14 weeks.Today,competition & industry pressures have reduced basic training time to an average of 6 weeks, with some outfits trumpeting "LEARN TO SCUBA IN ONE WEEKEND!!" Where will it end?

My vote is for more basic training, not less. Computers are tremendous tools & have a significant role in the modern diver's underwater play. I feel they should be introduced in the basic class & then greatly expanded upon in the advanced course. Novices should stay in the shallows & gain experience before venturing to deeper depths where computers prove their worth.

The time-honoured, tried-tested & true philosophy of apprenticeship is, in my opinion, sacrosanct. Master the basics; build a strong foundation in the primary skills before venturing farther afield.

In this era of "instant gratification" we must guard against the minimization of risk inherent in diving. The corporate march for profit is relentless ( Ie: opening scuba up to 10 yearolds! ). As Instructors, as a community of divers, we must stand against the forces which work to erode our standards of training. If we do not, governmental regulation of scuba diving will...do we really want that?

Sorry bout' the sermon, but this subject drives me preachy!

Best fishes,
D.S.D.

[turnerjd]

Deap Sea Dan

I am with you there!

Jon T

[indscuba]

One of our local dive shops is changing to SDI also. The question I asked was what about the divers who do not want or can not afford a dive computer, do they know how to work the dive tables, is their certification still valid, is the computer they learned with just the one dive store sells at the highest profit or would any computer do even if they do not know how to use it.

[Tom]

I'm certified with SDI. Since I have never taken a PADI course, I can't compare it directly. But yes, we started with computers right away. We did a couple of tables in the class to be familiar with them, but certainly not to the expert level. It would be hard for me to stay proficient. I don't live in an area where I can dive a couple weekends a month. I don't have the opportunity to use the tables on a regular basis.

I agree with what Joel said from my experience


"most people are diving them anyway and if a
new diver is on a trip most likely they are
being led around by a divemaster on a set profile."

I know I'm not an expert. I know I'm not experienced enough to know every little thing. I consider myself still in training and go with a dive master I trust, one who is familiar with the area I am diving in. I do this by choice.

I feel my computer can catch things that tables won't, or because of my experience, it will catch things that my use of the tables won't. If I leave my "plan" slightly, such as laying on the bottom at 43 feet because it's high tide, and I planned on 40 feet. Or ducking down in a hole an extra 5 feet for a few minutes to watch an interesting critter. This would be caught by my computer but could make for a complicated calculation on tables - if you even bother to consider it at all.

It's hard to be an expert on 3 or 4 trips a year with 6 or 8 dives per trip. I need to use the expertise of my divemaster and the information from my computer. Then add a rough table calculation to be sure the numbers are reasonable. I think the SDI training and my common sense (realizing I don't know it all - but trying to learn) was right for me.

Tom

[cottim]

I started my course (CMAS P1) in July 2000. It took me ages to finish and we had to learn how to use tables very well. I then bought a computer and use for checking time and ascent speed. Most of our diving is planned by the DM with whom we dive. So ... no need to plan.
But I believe that, in need, I can plan a dive with the tables.
No way a computer can replace planning, if you are a careful diver.
I don't think the companies are changing from PADI to SDI because of tables and computers. When I asked about it to a friend that represents TDI in Portugal he said SDI was les expensive that PADI.
The bucks are the reason, I'm sure!
Sorry for the long 2 cents!

[raffles]

Just a couple of points as I haven't seen the SDI syllabus nor had anyone using that card with me.

I learnt to dive with tables and my Instuctor made sure that not only did I understand them that when I went on higher up the ladder because of a solid grounding in tables I could also plan a Diving weekend that took diving of gassing and logistics into account.

I have been using a computer myself but if customers don't have their own then we dive slate profiles and stay above 60' because the computer on MY ARM is MY PROFILE and if something unfortunate occurs then it's only good for me.

Finally what happens if the computer is lost stolen broken or left behind do you cancel Diving or take risks. Chambers are boring scary places to spend any length of time
Raffles

[Mario S Caner]

Ken,
I teach for PADI and SDI/TDI. The differences on paper has pretty much already been outlined in the above. The materials are less expensive, much easier for the student to follow with it's tables, diagrams and illustrations. The table requirement is covered in the diving history portion of the class and if the instructor beleives the student has complete mastery of all required skills in the confined water training, he/she is not required to have the student redomonstrate it in the open water environment.

Now having said all that, I cover tables more than the requirement, which is allowed. I give the students the same rundown I learned as a NAUI diver, then as a PADI diver, instructor etc. I teach them how to use the tables, and more importantly where the tables came from. Let them run through all of the questions and answers, go through the same type of test questions. Let them learn and make mistakes, then I whip out the computers and teach them all about the proper use of them.

I feel comfortable with the amount of instruction I provide. We don't move on until everyone in the class is comfortable. The bottom line is one that we've talked about many times on these boards. It's the instructor that makes the difference, not the agency. Talk to local divers, ask them who they went through their o/w training with, and you can't go wrong!

[cottim]

IMHO Mario has a point here.
It ends up being an instructor problem.
A good instructor will always worry with his/her students and teach whatever necessary to have the person well prepared.

[greg somers]

As an Diveleader myself I have done Naui and Padi and am further training with an SSI establishment. For thourough training you cannot go past naui as it is a non-for-profit organisation and the others are all profit making businesses. I had a similiar discussion with a master instructor and one of the most advanced divers in the southern hemisphere and his opinion was that the money is in the certification and that most organisations teach their clients only to a certain level and then tell them to go for further training. Not that that is a bad concept, but the stuff they are prescribing for further courses are taught at standard Naui o/w level. I do not agree with the Padi doctrine of avoiding overteaching. When I do my Padi instructor crossover I have been told not to teach all that I think is relevant but only what is proscribed and that takes away from the freedom of the instructor to teach to a higher standard where as Naui states that you cannot teach lower than their minimum standard but you are welcome to teach above the standard and the others do not allow that.
We get alot of overseas divers in N.Z. and some of them have had up to 100 dives but they struggle to do even the basics well. The standards definately need to be raised. Any system that does not teach thourough table awareness is putting their students at risk. Computers need to be customised to the individual and they are all set at different tolerances. They are a tool but cannot be relied upon in place of good instruction. Sure,teach their usage but give them the basics. As for tables the most accurate in my opinion are the SSI as they still take account of the Doppler scale where as the others have changed away from the scale somewhat. Well that's my opinion. The gasman

[luvdiving]

One question I have been asked many times by prospective students is, "where is an SDI certification going to be accepted?"
What's the scoop?

Thanks, Ken

[GetWet]

Does anybody use the PADI "Wheel" dive table? Is it still available?

[Mario S Caner]

Ken, I don't see why SDI certifications won't get honored just like any other agencies C-card. The best person to ask however is probably Brian Carney at TDI / SDI.

Get Wet, The PADI wheel is still available and taught. The cost is close to $50 US which make most people spend a few extra bucks and buy a computer instead.

[Iguana Don]

I believed I predicted this some time ago.

Sooner or later our U.S. C-Cards will not be valid anywhere but here. Does anyone see a problem here except me. Or am I just being paranoid?

France has already nullified the PADI C-Card, The UK is considering it. I Think it's time to wake up, we have not progressed in this area, we are going backwards. As I have said before we are sending undertrained people into the water. you say PADI certifies 70% of all divers, then 70% of all divers are undertrained to world standards. I know this is a radical statement, but take a look around and see what's happening.

ID

[Rick Murchison]

The only places who will even contemplate not honoring certain C-cards are those places that rerely see those C-cards from paying customers anyway.
Don't sweat it.
Rick

[DiverDave]

GetWet:

The PADI wheel is still around. It is required learning for the divemaster and instructor exams, and I'm pretty sure its part of of the multilevel specialty.

Open Water divers can be taught either the wheel or the standard table. As the wheel is so much more expensive nearly everywhere uses the table to keep course costs down.

[turnerjd]

Originally posted by Iguana Don

France has already nullified the PADI C-Card, The UK is considering it. I Think it's time to wake up, we have not progressed in this area, we are going backwards. As I have said before we are sending undertrained people into the water. you say PADI certifies 70% of all divers, then 70% of all divers are undertrained to world standards. I know this is a radical statement, but take a look around and see what's happening.

ID

The UK authorities have been thinking about this, however, the way round this at the moment for most dive operators is not accepting OW qualified divers in some places they insist on a minimum of AOW for any diving and some places are thinking about restricting to Rescue and above.

This is a bit similar to the big wreck debate we are having, they are trying a voluentary code of practice at the moment, to avoid any legislation.

Unfortunately, ID, with 70% of divers being 'underqualified PADI' it really means that the world standard is dropping. For people like me, this is more worrying, in that to do the sort of diving I do you will have to go out and strait off pay big money for OW, AOW, and possibly rescue, before you can go out and dive just for the fun of it. It will eventually lead to a reduction in the number of people doing deep dark cold european diving, and doing almost exclusively warm water holiday diving. As less poeple do this sort of diving, fewer places will stock suitable kit, and kit prices will rise slowly and surely.

Last w/end at the dive show it was noticible, that all the GOOD deals were on warm water equipment, there were no really good deals on good quality cold water diving gear that I could find. Is this the future of things?

Certainly PADI's certification numbers bear this out, they do 70% of the OW certs here, but this drops to 20-30% for AOW / Rescue, and then to 10% for higher levels. These people just aren't diving here, they are 'vacation divers', and take their dive custom elsewhere.

Such changes are life, but I do see the overall quality of diver theory knowledge, and rescue skills being eroded here. Rescue skills are the most important ones, BSAC introduce Rescue skills in their OW equivalent, and you have to perform them at all Q levels. Padi introduce them at Rescue level, you then have to do one senario for the DM course, and another for the IDC. This is only 3 assessed rescues! BSAC has 2 in its open water course, and every level up has at least 2. This is regular practice, which people don't get with the PADI system (unless you are continually rescuing people!).

Sad but true, mebe its time for a 'TIR' (Teach It Right) agency!

Jon T

[Aegir]

Jon i couldnt agree more. For what is labelled a relatively dangerous sport there should definately be rescue medic/skills included right from the beginning of peoples dive training. Especially since new divers are the ones most likely to have accidents. I believe it will change in time , but why not change it now? We will probably have to wait until a party of new divers drown somewhere before they decide to think ahead. It is crazy IMO. :yelling:

[turnerjd]

Aegir,

The leicester coroner, and their chief constable have been making noises quite vigorously due to the disproportionate number of PADI accidents at stoney cove. At the moment no-one is really listening to them, however, from what the HSE has being saying about diving over the last few years (remember they changes the rules so that recreational diver training is covered by the diveers at work commercial rules) would mead me to sugest they are well aware of the situation, but haven't got the political clout to do such an outright political move.

Jon T

[Maggie]

Jon

I agree with you entirely but do you not also think that those people who have completed Rescue training should also have to update their skills on a regular basis (ie yearly or 2 yearly) along with medic first aid in order to keep their qualifications. It is only too easy to forget skills when you dont use them on a regular basis and also protocols change with time.

[turnerjd]

Maggie,

Above I suggested a 'TIR' (teach it right) agency being formed with far more time being spent on things like this. If I had my way, O2 therapy would be required knowledge for EVERY diver, and first aid certificates renewed every 2 years or so, and rescue skills reviewed, and re-assessed either yearly, or 2 yearly.

I have absolutely no desire to dive with some-one that last practised rescue skills on their rescue course 5, or worse, 10 years previously, and who hasn't done any first aid training since then.

Standards are too low at the moment, and too many divers aren't prepared to take any responsibility for themselves, and are too dependent upon someone like a divemaster. What do they do when the divemaster decides that the best place for him is surface supervision? do they then hope that another paying customer down there on the same dive site with them will rescue them?

Personally I would like to think that I had received enough training to deal with most occurences, but sadly, most of my rescue training wasn't performed by the 'main' training agencies around, as they have very little in any of their courses.

Jon T

[Maggie]

Jon

Okay, I agree with you. I should have said all divers and not just rescue divers. Even at rescue level the amount of first aid and rescue training you receive is poor. I am glad that some one agrees with me. I have to admit that I have been concerned about it but was not too sure whether because of my past experience I was being hypercritical. I have spent the past 30 years working as a Sister in Theatre, Intensive Care and in Accident and Emergency. I've also completed Advanced Cardiac and Advanced Trauma Resuscitation Courses. (I've now retired.) I'm glad to hear that you are going to do the IDC. With the amount of knowledge and enthusiasm you appear to have this can only be a big plus for the scuba world.

[turnerjd]

Originally posted by Maggie
I'm glad to hear that you are going to do the IDC. With the amount of knowledge and enthusiasm you appear to have this can only be a big plus for the scuba world.

Yes, and a big minus for my everyday job! (I'm sure I will spend FAR too much time on diving, as I know that I am already a bit too close to the limit!

Jon T

[DiverDave]

Jon,

I certainly agree with that O2 Admin should be a course all divers have to take. PADI Medic First Aid certificates are only valid for two years and then renewable via a refresher course. The same applies to the DAN Oxygen Provider course. Interestingly the Padi O2 Admin speciality has no expiry date. This certinly seems to be an oversight that should be corrected.

As for Rescue skills per se, some sort of regular practise is certainly a very good idea. I think that everyone should keep those skills sharp and it isn't difficult to do. After a fun dive, it costs nothing for one of a buddy pair to play dead and the other to practise all the skills of bringing the person to the surface and back to the boat with rescue breathing. Remember to tell the boat skipper/divemaster that you are going to do this as it can cause concern!!

If everyone practices it makes diving safer for us all.

[turnerjd]

Originally posted by DiverDave
PADI Medic First Aid certificates are only valid for two years and then renewable via a refresher course. The same applies to the DAN Oxygen Provider course. Interestingly the Padi O2 Admin speciality has no expiry date. This certinly seems to be an oversight that should be corrected.


Dave,

As a DM, I had to have a valid first aid certificate (IF I remember correctly) to register. Since I registered I have only had to pay PADI to remain current.

Personally, I think that this is wrong, and that to remain current I should be required to have a valid 1st aid certificate. Similarly, I think that Rescue divers should have some form of requirement to have a valid first aid certificate. As for not having to have a compulsory O2 admin course for DM or IDC people, this is not good enough. You can be a PADI instructor having only seen an O2 kit in your rescue diver course!

Jon T

[DiverDave]

Jon,

MFA or equivalent is mandatory for PADI Rescue Diver cert. MFA does lapse after two years, but you keep the rescue cert. DM and instructors must have in date MFA at time of passing, but I'm not sure that an instructor has to have an in date MFA for renewal.

Your comments on lack of O2 skills is spot on. I recommend to all rescue students that they take the O2 course in addition. There are some problems about O2 in some countries as it may be classified as a prescription drug. However this is not the case for most countries and there is no excuse for people not to learn the skills. The O2 course is not even a regular specialty but a "distinctive" one for PADI. This is a serious oversight as the course does not get the attention it deserves.

Dave

[SubMariner]

You're right about requirement of a "current" or "in status" MFA being required for DM, AI, & Instructor.

At the DM level it must be renewed every 2 years by re-taking the course. At the AI and above level, if the person has taught or assisted in teaching any MFA courses during that time, then they are still "in status". Otherwise they have to re-take the MFA course from a Course Director (who is an MFA Instructor Trainer) in order to retain their MFA Instructor status.

~SubMariner~

[scywin]

As one of those "undertrained vacation divers" being discussed here, I'd like to toss in my two cents. The chorus for requiring higher levels of training is hard to argue with. How do you argue against training and safety? However, if you actually succeeded in imposing some of the requirements discussed here, I am not sure whether I would be able to stick with the sport. Do you really want to reduce the number of divers like me?

I do think safety is important. I also happen to be a pilot, and if you want to see a well managed risk sport, check out flying. The key to safety in flying is not to impose absurdly high standards on everyone, but to get training appropriate to what you are doing and to use judgement appropriate to a "risk" activity. I have no problem scratching a flight or a dive if I don't think I can handle the conditions.

One thing that is commonly available to pilots is extensive data on accidents. Both accidents and fatalities have been declining for years due to a lot of emphasis in this area. While, I see stories about scuba accidents, I never see real data, e.g. numbers of accidents, whether accidents are going up or down over time, most common causes of accidents, etc.

Without data of this type, it is hard to make a case that existing training is good enough, not good enough, needs to be changed, etc.

Does anybody know of a source for such data?

Thanks.

[turnerjd]

Accident reports,

In the UK we have the HSE annual diving report, which covers diving at work (comercial divers, and recreational instructors), and the BSAC accident reports.

I will try and find some links for you. However as I am not an alerican I have no idea about US stats.

As for all this extra training we are mooting, there is nothing really hard or time consuming here, all that would be necessary (IMO) is after a dive once a year just showing that you had maintained your rescue skills, and possibly spending 1 weekend every 2 years doing a propper diving first aid course which included the O2 basics. Not exactly hard, or expensive.

Jon T

[scywin]

I would appreciate the links. My point is that if accidents are declining under the present regime, then there is little need to change, while if accidents are climbing the change may argue for training of a particular type. Without real data, it is difficult to make a case either way.

To return to my flying example, the stats show that one of the primary causes of accidents is non-instrument rated pilots flying into conditions that require instrument skills. As a result, all pilots now receive at least a minimal amount of instrument training. This is the sort of thinking needed here.

[turnerjd]

I haven't found the links yet, but your example of flying is a good one.

Doing a PADI course in good (warm water) conditions is like being able to fly VFR.

The diving I do (Cold, Poor Vis, often <30m) is the diving equivalent of needing an IR.

My point is that the PADI OW is a basic certificate that gives people a false sense of security. There should be a seperate clasification for doing the type of diving that I and many other europeans do here, and I suspect a lot of people in the north of the USA do as well.

Like they have the different colour stickers to go on the card for the reviews done in different conditions, there should be differences between people trained in perfect conditions, and those that had to use a drysuit and deal with crap vis.

Part of the problem is that some divers haven't learn enought to realise that they don't know enought!

Jon T

[scywin]

I am located in NJ and have done most of my training locally, but dive for pleasure in the Caribbean. I understand exactly what you mean. The conditions and the training required are completely different.

However, my sense is that most divers understand this, and I do not hear of many accidents. If the stats say I am just unaware, then training might be the solution. If the stats show a low and declining accident rate, I would suggest the current training requirements are working well.

The thing I would avoid doing is imposing broad requirements based on a few anecdotes.

[DiverDave]

Jon,

You are very right that conditions you learn in are very important. But it can go in the reverse direction too.
I did my OW in the English Channel in the middle of winter. Next diving was AOW in Australia and it scared the living daylights out of me. 30+m of vis and some serious attacks of vertigo.

People should definately find out about new conditions in a controlled way with divers experienced in them.
The shop I teach for offers an introduction to UK diving weekend that covers SMBs, Drysuits, and bad vis.

[raffles]

I have read all the comments and for the most part I agree with everyone, however as a full time Instructor there are a couple of areas that I think are worth Highlighting.

I have worked in the recreational area now for over ten years and can say that 95% of the students that I have trained are not at all interested in Diving in the same way that we are. If the current training standards were changed to make it increasingly difficult to just dive occasionally, then the whole sport would see a downturn in popularity that would have a trickle down effect everywhere. Fewer dive shops, fewer Boats, less equipment at Higher prices etc.

The answer is not tightening up and imposing rules but in the Instuction of these students. I teach in the Carribean but I stress, as I was taught to, that Open Water is an "entry level cert" not a "you can dive anywhere cert." if the customer comes from Britain I try and get them an address to go to for further training if they want to dive in cold water. This is all stuff that was stressed on my IDC. It is also there in the PADI manuals. If people choose to ignore it then the next area to look at is on site supervision.

If accidents are happening with more frequency at Stoney Cove then something is wrong with their supervision or the accidents were unavoidable ones, which sometimes happens.

DM's, AI's and Instructors are all responsible for divers in their care, OW divers should not be diving without help in conditions outside their training and experience. Again this should be stressed during their training. At all levels of training looking out for others is or should be a strong theme. PADI allow the introduction of basic rescue skills at the OW level "time and conditions" permitting. Unfortunately some Instructors are unable to get around to it. There is plenty of time that can be used for additional "reinforcement" and fun games during SI's between dives and also in the pool so look to the Instructors for improvement

Raffles

[vr]

Originally posted by scywin
My point is that if accidents are declining under the present regime, then there is little need to change, while if accidents are climbing the change may argue for training of a particular type. Without real data, it is difficult to make a case either way.
The fallacy of that philosophy is that it presumes that the accident rate is the sole determination of the importance of training standards.

There are things the accident rate can't tell us, like all the near accidents, the dumbing down of dives that so many have noted. The climbing rate of divers in decompression chambers is a more revealing statistic than the accident rate.

Ask yourself (and for everyone reading this) what is the cause of the dumbing down of divers. Then look at declining standards in entry level training for the past quarter century, especially at the largest certification agency in the world, one that claims to certify 55% of divers worlwide and 70% in North America.

Coincidence? I don't think so. Try to discuss it objectively and most people will say "it's the instructor, not the agency". Clearly, that is an incomplete and inaccurate answer.

Now we have an agency, SDI, that is going lower than PADI. Mention the tables but teach with a dive computer. Divers don't need to think, all they need to do is come up when the light turns red on their computer. If they can perform skills in a swimming pool, there's no need to test them on a real dive, with fish, depth, currents and an openness lacking in a swimming pool.

The shift is that these new standards are easier for the instructor not better for the students, as has been true of many other PADI standards. Putting aside their marketing claims and propaganda about making it better for students and the industry, the truth can be found in their pursuit of money.

You only need to look at them allowing 10 year olds to be certified even though any medical evidence shows that this is a bad idea, to see the truth and their real motives.

[vr]

Originally posted by turnerjd

Part of the problem is that some divers haven't learned enough to realise that they don't know enough!
Jon T
True of many instructors also.

[Walter]

I'm very glad to see so many people advocating more education. There are some misunderstamdings. PADI does require some rescue training at the OW level both in the pool and in open water. This training is very limited and, IMHO, should be increased, but it is there. The other misunderstanding is equating all US agencies with PADI. Rescue requirements for NAUI and YMCA are more complete in the OW course.

As for increasing standards, it does not have to result in making it more difficult to become certified. It does require more time, but that time can be fun and it can be easy. The only people who won't benefit are those who teach a quick weekend class. In all honesty, I'd love to see those weekend classes disappear forever. They do a disservice to students tricked into taking them.

WWW™

[gjenks]

thank you for your great discussion, I really enjoy this board. I am taking classes to become a diver after a 25 year wait. I am taking these course through a SSI agency and the instuctor requires the table work as you all know but stongly suggest the use of a computor, with more training. This makes sense. Thank you.

[turnerjd]

Originally posted by scywin
My point is that if accidents are declining under the present regime, then there is little need to change, while if accidents are climbing the change may argue for training of a particular type. Without real data, it is difficult to make a case either way.

We don't just need to look at the numbers of accidents, it is also necessary to look at the type of diving being done. Over the last 5 years in europe, with the rise of PADI there has been a decrease in the ammount of decompression diving, but an increase in the number of chamber rides. This must say something.

Originally posted by vr
The fallacy of that philosophy is that it presumes that the accident rate is the sole determination of the importance of training standards.

There are things the accident rate can't tell us, like all the near accidents, the dumbing down of dives that so many have noted. The climbing rate of divers in decompression chambers is a more revealing statistic than the accident rate.

<snip>

Now we have an agency, SDI, that is going lower than PADI. Mention the tables but teach with a dive computer. Divers don't need to think, all they need to do is come up when the light turns red on their computer. If they can perform skills in a swimming pool, there's no need to test them on a real dive, with fish, depth, currents and an openness lacking in a swimming pool.

The shift is that these new standards are easier for the instructor not better for the students, as has been true of many other PADI standards. Putting aside their marketing claims and propaganda about making it better for students and the industry, the truth can be found in their pursuit of money.

You only need to look at them allowing 10 year olds to be certified even though any medical evidence shows that this is a bad idea, to see the truth and their real motives.

From what I have heared about SDI I am starting to get seriously worried that if it starts teaching anywhere other than nice warm tropical water, there will be an even greater rise in accidents.

We all know that diving is potentially dangerous, but everyone here is taking the time to learn more. If you give some-one a computer and tell them to follow it blindly, they are lacking any real idea as to what is going on with decompression theory, and what the computers numbers and controlls mean.

Teaching diving properly has never been a particularly economic proposition I suspect. In order to make it more economic, agencys like PADI have had to remove a lot of the instructor load so that they can get a suitable course duration : cost ratio. ie, to make enough money the course has to last a certain maxiumum time, so that the next class can then be put through their course.

I noticed in the PADI instructor manual, that the recommended minimum course duration is 31 hours. The only way round this is to use the CD-ROM for 'home study' so that the instructor load is much less. They then use some exceptionally questionable educational theory to support this 'home study'. If 'home study' as they now recomend with the CD-ROM was so good, why don't all the universities put all their courses on CD-ROM and get the students to sit at home all day on their computer, hell it would make their lives far easier if they didn't have to deal with the students wouldn't it?

I have spoken to many PADI DM's and above, and they all know the standard PADI lines. It is a bit like in the old communist Russia. Even if you didn't believe, all you had to do was repeat the party line like a good model citizen, and you were relatively safe. There is a culture within places like PADI of repeat the party line and you will be fine. There is no culture of questioning why the PADI answer is correct, and a lot of the time, their reasons are more spin than substance.

As for getting 10 year olds diving, there is not much I can say. The last PADI propaganda (ie the Undersea journal) was almost dedicated to getting youngsters to dive. Their comercial reasons for this are barely hidden. Why encourage youngsters, unless the aim is to get their parents in spending big ammounts of money on them, everybody knows how difficult it can be to say no when kids really want something. The rate at which kids grow, they represent a big moneymaking potential as they will have to have new suits, BCD's etc... as they grow. This is just a little bit too far on the money grubbing side for me.

I say that we need to seriously think about how our sport is progressing, and how we would like it to progress in the future. If necessary, do something about it.

Jon T

[raffles]

Jon T

A little one sided on the organisation bashing, ALL the agencies world wide that are in the "business" of providing divng certification have revised there standards "downwards" over the last 10 years, making the oceans more accessible to more people.

This has lead to a change in attitudes to ocean conservation that just wasn't present amongst the "old guard" purists.

All divers have a responsibility to themselves and others to ensure that they don't attempt things they have not been trained to do or understand as do Instructors, Professionals and SENIOR DIVERS to ensure that people with less experience get the experience they need in a safe well organised manner.

Thanks. Raffles.

[Walter]

ALL agencies have not lowered their standards.

WWW™

[greg somers]

When I did the naui basic scuba in '85 it was an excellent and challenging course.I just recently completed a dive leadership course with naui again and it involved taking non divers thru the basic OW again and there was definately about 20 - 25 % less material and teaching requirements,particularly in the theory and practical assessment and this was thru the same shop I did my original course with.Comparing my old material which I still have and the new course material,I have definately seen a difference.Even the course providers admit that there has been a level of 'dumbing down' for an increase of numbers into the sport.It would appear that other agencies have aswell,including Padi where some of my courses done with them are now much more lenient in standards.I have to agree with raff on this one.Peace love and mong beans babezzz....Gasman.

[turnerjd]

Originally posted by raffles
ALL the agencies world wide that are in the "business" of providing divng certification have revised there standards "downwards" over the last 10 years, making the oceans more accessible to more people.


Not from where I sit. FFESSM in france, and BSAC in the UK haven't dumbed down yet, and I hope they never do.

Jon T

[friscuba]

Hi there,

I'm an instructor with both agencies. From what I can see there isn't a huge amount of differences between the two in skill requirements to become certified. SDI has taken to computer instruction vs. the tables, but does require some table history be taught and most instructors I know are basically doing the normal table training anyway.

Now for a few opinions on a couple of comments I've noticed in this thread.

re: certification acceptance- A year or two ago many operators weren't familiar with SDI. Now most are. At DEMA this year the SDI/TDI booth was very busy, nowhere near as busy or as sizable as PADI's booth, but more noticeably busy than some of the other major organizations. My suspicion is that any op not recognizing SDI's certs is either ill informed or has their nose up in the air.

re: tables not being taught- I work on a dive boat in Hawaii and I suspect it is a safe bet that more than 80% of the certified divers on the boat couldn't figure out their pressure group letter at the end of the 2nd dive, no matter what agency they trained with. In most cases the one's who can are DM's or above or just recently certified. You'll probably be seeing more agencies going pretty much to computer training in the next few years.

That being said, don't give up on your PADI instructorship just yet. PADI has much bigger name recognition and you will find far more non divers interested in it's programs because of that. Also SDI is making the switch to instruction at authorized SDI diveshops and you won't be able to teach independantly without being affiliated with a SDI shop. Apparently you are still able to teach TDI classes independantly at this time, if you are interested in technical programs.

Both agencies have their positives and it is up to the instructor to follow established guidelines and not scrimp on the training so as to produce good divers.

later

Steve

[Bob]

Great, Just what the dive community needs, a training agency that throws a dive computer at a OW student and says keep it in the green! What a swell idea. I'm sure that when those same students are on a dive and their DC battery fails, they will end the dive and dive no more. Or when suiting up the diver finds that he's left his DC at home, I'm sure he won't even think about diving that day will he? Since dive tables aren't as important as a DC to SDI, I wonder will SDI divers be required to have a timepiece? They have a dive computer you know! Is it any wonder that we all see new divers diving irresponsibly and taking risks that shouldn't be taken? The bottom line, more training, instead of less.
Bob

[tomcat]

Wait a minute? Are timespieces on the required equipment list? Just kidding Bob.

Personally I think there are always two sides to a coin and opposing forces to every tension. In this case, economics vs safety. As diving becomes popular and accessible, it will attract new entrants into the industry who will continually lower prices and possibly standards in order to compete.

For standards to remain at an "acceptable" level, the only way in which to do so IMHO, would be like how any industry is regulated. Some government body (with influence on the legal system) with absolutely no commercial interest in the industry, should be the absolute authority on standards.

Not-for-profit organisations may argue that they do not have "commercial" interests per se. I agree to some extent but not-for-profit is not the same as not-for-revenue. These organisations need to sustain themselves in order to continue operating and that means attracting customers, in competition with all other companies in the same industry.

Until there is a truly neutral authority on diving standards and safety, one agency's word is as good as another's to the average holiday maker who takes up an OW course over the weekend.

If there are divers in this forum who are in a position to influence the creation of such a body and care enough to do so, that may be the only chance for diving education to be adequate for everyone.

tomcat

[turnerjd]

Tomcat,

Legal regulation is not a nice way to go. If you have regulations, there are always people doing the absolute minimum necessary, without being ilegal.

It was suggested in one of the other threads that we try and sort out a new agency, one that is comercially orientated, but including major differences like compulsory 'mentoring' or having new divers with 'L plates'.

Providing the industry with a comercial alternative, where the industry is forcing the standards higher, rather than relying on government intervention is surely a better method of improving standards. If everyone hear puts in their ideas as to what they would like to see change in diver training, we can come up with something good.

Jon T

[tomcat]

turnerjd

you have a point there and in a perfect world, i woiuld agree with you.

but how would this new agency be able to enforce its standards on the other agencies? PADI is currently the king of the hill and it is going to take substanstial pressure to get them to budge.

ultimately, consumers choose who they want to go to. more stringent standards typically mean more work and there will be many occasions when neither instructors nor trainess will appreciate the benefits of these higher standards and stick with good ol padi, naui, sdi and what have you.

therefore, i don't see how the creation of a new agency will make diving education more robust in general, across all certification agencies. i'm sure i must have missed out some other parts of the argument though.

tomcat

[Bob]

Hi Tomcat,
I think that you and I are in agreement on this discussion. I'm not "agency elitist", like some people are. I don't necessarily think that one training agency is better or worse than the other. I'm a PADI diver, and sure, I see things that PADI could do better.
I've said that to say this. I'm a flight instructor, single and multi engine. When I feel a student pilot is ready to go for his check ride, I make a appointment with a FAA examiner or FAA designated examiner. The test is two fold, ground and flight skills. If the student pilot completes these tests satisfactorily, he becomes a pilot.
Wouldn't it be better to have a impartial dive examiner test students to make sure they have been taught the proper skills and that they are able to successfully demonstrate those same skills? If the student is found to be competent, the examiner would then issue a temporary card. Makes sense to me. Of course it would add to the overall cost, but what are we most worried about, producing competent divers or a inexpensive product?
Bob

[nivtup]

So,

I am just completing my PADI OW course.

By no means do I think I know enough.

I believe that I ahve been taught one thing that matters in this discussion. I will never know enough, I will have to pursue this as a quest for knowledge if I am going to be worth my salt at this. I see myself in several years, still wanting to learn more.

I do not know what other agencies are doing in thier courses, but I can say that I personnal would not be comfortable "skimming over" tha tables, and relying on computers for my health and safety. (Anyone ever see the famous Bule Screen of Death?) OK, none of these dive computers are windows based are they? Hope not.

Don

[turnerjd]

Originally posted by Bob
Wouldn't it be better to have a impartial dive examiner test students to make sure they have been taught the proper skills and that they are able to successfully demonstrate those same skills? If the student is found to be competent, the examiner would then issue a temporary card. Makes sense to me. Of course it would add to the overall cost, but what are we most worried about, producing competent divers or a inexpensive product?
Bob

Bob,

Can I steal that Idea from you?

Jon T

[tomcat]

or...we could have NAUI examiners for PADI trainees and vice versa. That way, we can be sure that mistakes and inadequacies will not be overlooked! kekekekekekeke

[Bob]

Hello Jon T,
Use it my friend! I'm convincd that we have to get away from the cheap and easy way of thinking. If change occurs in the way we certify divers, the dive community itself will have to affect the change. This is a excellent forum to make that start. Dive safely.
Bob

[DivingGal]

OK, I'm a wee bit confused. I've read this thread through a few times now, and quite frankly I can't quite figure out what some of you are trying to say.
Here's what I've got out of the discussion -- correct me if I'm wrong - in the opinion of some, but not all, the comments go something like this:
- SDI is gaining in market share (where? USA or world?)
- training received in most agencies is similar, with some focusing more on tables, others computers
- many in this thread agree that the best training is really from the kind of instructor you get. In any agency you get toads, and you get princes (or princesses)
- PADI wheels are used (I use one -- it's my backup non-technical computer)
- scuba C-card acceptance (for different agencies?) are not accepted all over the world -- well gee neither are other certifications for other professions. If you want to go somewhere and 'practice' your profession wouldn't you confirm that you could before you go?
- Rescue skills, first aid skill should be stressed earlier in a diver's career. The skills should also undergo some sort of regular review. Our shop conducts a annual rescue review for any qualified Rescue Diver, DM, Instructor prior to our dive season (It will be occurring sometime next month or early May). Personally I have always maintained a first aid level cert. -- it's just gone to a higher level to include CPR since diving
- People who get certified and have diving only in warm waters, should undergo some sort of review/instruction on how to dive in cold waters. E.g. What to wear! Salt vs. Fresh

Well that's what I got out of the lengthy discussion. Did I understand it all?

(Blue Screen of Death -- yup, been there done that way to-o-o many times!)

[NetDoc]

Hey All,

OK, I am a PADI Divemaster, with a ton of spring experience and some Saltwater experiencs. I am contemplating doing the IDC within a couple of months. Up until now, I was thinking PADI was the only way to go. Any thoughts on this???

And while you are mulling that over, where would be the BEST place in the Central Florida area to take the IDC???

BTW, I am serious science fanatic, and seem to understand more about the physics and phsyiology than my instructors. I have had bad instructors and great instructors, and really beleive that SAFETY has to come first and foremost.

Pete from Orlando

[Walter]

........PADI is certainly one of them, but not the only one by any stretch of the imagination. The first step is to determine which philosophy agrees with your own. Once you figure that out, do some research into those agencies you tend to agree woth to see which one fits you best.

There are two basic philosophies followed by various agencies.

#1. Diving is fun and easy. It is possible to make the course easy as well if we eliminate skills that might possibly frighten anyone on their first day of class. If too many skills are included it results in task loading which will interfere with a student learning necessary tasks and make them an unsafe diver.

#2. Diving is fun and easy. It is possible to make the course easy as well if we begin with simple skills and allow plenty of practice time on each skill. Once a simple skill is mastered, other elements are added to the skill allowing plenty of time to practice each element. When those added elements are mastered, still more elements are added in the same manner. By approaching skill development in this manner we are able to teach quite complex skills in a manner that makes it easy for students. Skills that might seem frightening to a student on the first day of class are a logical and easy progression by the time those skills are presented in class. This gives a student confidence and the ability to solve problems without panic.

Some agencies use viewpoint 1, others use viewpoint 2. There are some which fall somewhere in between.

Decide what's best for you, then start looking at agencies.

WWW™

[Mario S Caner]

Hey there NetDoc,
If it's a single agency you are looking into, than I'm sure that most will agree that PADI is nore global and therefore has the most opportunity to teach in the greatest variety of locations.

If you really want to become marketable, start looking into getting qualified to teach multiple agencies standards. Currently I teach for PADI/TDI & SDI, but I intend on getting NAUI & SSI teaching credentials as well. It may seem like a little overkill to most, especially since you have to pay membership dues to all of the agencies you are affiliated with. But to me this type of cross-overs give me a better understanding of the different agencies, and provide me the greatest flexibility in both career choices and locations to live.

In my opinion, no one agency is better than any other. It's the instructor that makes the difference. Whatever agency you choose to go with, strive to be the best instructor you can possibly be, and you will have nothing to worry about.

Remeber that mud thrown in ground lost

[NetDoc]

Hey Walter, Mario, and All...

Good points all! Walter, I would wonder if you would classify which agency falls into which philosophy. Mario, I would wonder if you are searching for the "Holy Grail" of cert agencies. I agree that PADI is the most proliferate, but I guess I need to take calsses with the other agencies to see how I like them. The cost of the individual classes/books/teaching aids seem miniscule compared to the price of my regs or even my BC, so I am not worried about that. After having a PADI instructor half scare me to death (by endangering us both), I definately want to look at other agencies. Pease, no flames, I know the instructor BROKE all of the PADI rules, but you can tell alot about a tree by it's fruit. I have had other PADI instructors that I could dive into hell with, and know they would bring me back safely.

Again, I would ask for any recomendations, PADI or otherwise, for an IDC here in the Central Florida area.

Pete from Orlando

[Walter]

........but I'm not familiar with all agencies. I'm trying to learn more about other agencies.

If you like the first method, PADI is your agency. If you prefer the second, check out both NAUI and YMCA to see which suits your style.

HTH,

WWW™

[NetDoc]

Hey Walter,

Now I have only taken the PADI OW course, so what is presented in the NAUI/YMCA that is left out in the PADI course. I know they only cover "self rescue" in the PADI OW course, but I felt pretty at ease in the water after I finished the PADI OW course.

Pete in Orlando...

[Walter]

Pete,

You can check out the differences between those 3 agencies at http://diverlink.com/newdiver/agencycomparison.htm

It includes an objective comparison and my subjective comments.

WWW™

[NetDoc]

Thanks Walter,

Overall, it was fairly revealing, although I think there were a few things left out that PADI does cover. They do cover the different types of barotrauma, and a few other things (like veritgo) as well. How well they cover these items MAY be your point, which is well taken. As an OW student it seemed that I had a much firmer grasp on these issues than my instructor. Even whith the gas laws, I taught both my OW instructor and my Divemaster instructor the basics of STP (standard temperature and pressure)and how they related to gases and diving. I found my PADI Nitrox course VERY elementary in this respect, and was surprised that more pure science was not taught. Understanding the underlying roots help not only to understand WHY we do things, but also to assist in problem solving in and out of the water.

Would there possibly any statistics that show one agency or the other to be safer? It would have to be weighted to what percentage of the diving population has been certified by each particular agency. Still, that would shed incontrovertible evidence as to which agency is best.

Pete from Orlando

[Walter]

...............compare individual courses, merely what the agency requires. While your instructor covered the gas laws (and many other instructors do as well) PADI does not require it in their standards.

WWW™

[NetDoc]

Hey Walter & All,

I guess the reading doesn't count then? If I remember, one of the first things they alert you to was always breathing and why... what barotrauma was and how to avoid it. They covered the gas laws without naming them, and they covered their implications (which is the important part). All this was from the reading, as my instructor was pretty lax about the class room. In fact he was WAY too lax. Now, I would agree that they did not NAME the laws or even the injuries until we got into Rescue Diver and then Dive Master.

Pete from Orlando...

[vr]

Originally posted by NetDoc
Would there possibly any statistics that show one agency or the other to be safer? It would have to be weighted to what percentage of the diving population has been certified by each particular agency. Still, that would shed incontrovertible evidence as to which agency is best.

Pete from Orlando [/B]
Not true, Pete. While a disparity is accident rates by agency would indicate potential problems in an agency's curriculum, the absence of a disparity cannot be used to show that one agency is better than another. There are too many things not measured or indicated by the accident rate. Read the info at http://diverlink.com/newdiver/whichagency.htm , especially the part under "What studies don't measure" for details.

Besides, there is more to a good course than not getting killed or injured afterwards. I happen to agree that more information is better than less, and preparing students for a wide range of conditions is better than not teaching them things that might scare them. In fact, they should be scared a bit. Fear is healthy, it is part of our self-preservation defense mechanism. The best way to overcome fear is through knowledge. It is a lack of knowledge that can cause fear, and does with many student divers who take the "teach 'em as little as necessary so they won't kill themselves" courses taught by PADI and others.

[Maggie]

I think that too much is spoken of in relation to one agency versus another. We all know that you can get two divers who go through exactly the same course, one will learn just enough, the other will learn as much as he can and will be enthusiastic about continuing his education and widening his experience. I agree however that Padi amongst others dont require enough of open water divers and I think the rule that allows two newly "qualified" open water divers to jump in the sea together without supervision is ludicrous in the extreme.

[NetDoc]

Hey All,

Interesting discussion here, and it has made me re-think my motivation to want to become an instructor or not. I agree that there are many, many factors that arise in whether there are accidents or not, and that the certifying agency may or may not be responsible for that.

However, to say that an agency is responsible only for bad figures and not for good ones, does a dis-service to any plausible paradigms. Pergamentum inuit, exit pergamentum... (garbage in, garbage out). Again, I would like to view accidents by agency, with the various factors weighed in. I could then draw my own conclusions. They may not be YOUR conclusions, but then you are not responsible for me... I am. I need to be satisfied with how I dive and with how I will teach (upon completion of an IDC, of course).

So, the gist of what I have learned from this, is that there is much error in what people think that the different agencies teach. The instructor really makes the difference in what you are able to learn. And that the student is responsible to really learn it since it IS their butt in the water. I know for a fact that I have seen a PADI instructor NOT sign a cert card because a student could not do all of the required skills. He (and I) were patient, and we will be letting him take the entire class again, gratis. But, he could not do the skills, so he don't get the card.

Pete from Orlando...

[tomcat]

I have just completed a rescue diving course with Padi and it took less than 4 dives to finish, without any pool sessions beforehand.

The first inclination that anybody would have is that I didn't learn enough. Perhaps and thinking back on it, it is quite possible that I would have benefitted from more practice.

However, the argument that has been going on here in this thread seems to revolve around educational philosophies of whether students can absorb and handle the amount of information that instructors throw at them. It is the typical school teacher's quandary of whether they should teach to the brightest or the dumbest. Unless you are in a class of 1 or 2, there is no way that an instructor can easily identify who can absorb more info and treat those students differently.

With my rescue diving course, I found that if you are a relatively coordinated person with fairly good swimming skills and stamina, pool sessions are likely to be unnecessary. However, I am sure the lack of pool sessions alone would cause many of the members here to jump straight to the conclusion that not enough time was spent on instruction and/or practice.

Until we can agree on how much is enough for certification (saying that it is never enough is avoiding the question because then the course would never end), the argument will go on and on. If you want to beat a dog, you can always find a stick. Perhaps we should stick to typical cases. The amount of instruction should be such that the typical diver in a typical range of situations would be able to comfortably handle them.

Then again, even such a definition is open to more argument and debate. :Ţ

tomcat

[NetDoc]

Hey man,

I remember my rescue diver course well, and if it was anything like mine, then those were long, hard and arduous dives. If I have to blow bubbles on my arm ONE MORE TIME... (grin). We did one pool dive, but only because one of the students could not get it right. The rest of us were invited by the student to come support him. He fiannly made it, and is a better diver for it.

Pete from Orlando...

[tomcat]

Hey Pete,

I'm curious/ignorant. Why do you have to blow bubbles on your arm? Are there breathing cells there or something? :Ţ

tomcat

[Mario S Caner]

Hehe, sounds perverted... but he was most likely practicing giving rescue breathes... some do it on their forarm, others on the side of their wrist. Whatever floats your boat!

[NetDoc]

Hey TC, Mario, and all...

Yes, I was practicing rescue breathing on my forarm, you should never ever try it on a human who does not actually need it. However, there was one student who sorta caught my eye... but that blasted plastic thingie!!! ;-)

[tomcat]

my gosh. that was how tired/disoriented/unfit i was. didn't occur to me that i was blowing on my wrist and basically every general direction that was convienient. this was during the removal of equipment phase. dude! i could hardly keep afloat myself. makes u think twice about trying to rescue someone without a floatation device.

tomcat

[NetDoc]

Hey TC & All,

It helped me realise that I never want to be the one needing to be rescued... Rescuing someone takes major stamina, and remember this will usually happen at the END of the day, at the END of the last dive, when you are NOT fresh as a daisy! All of us left that last day dehydrated and feeling like we got hit by a Mack truck. But we left the lake a little prouder, far more confident, and yet quite humble about how much more we have to do to really be in good enough shape to help others.

If that wasn't enough I have volunteered to help my instructor with this next class, 'cause I just like pain, I guess...

Pete from Orlando...

[Mario S Caner]

You think that's bad, try teaching a couple of rescue diver classes back to back in 6ft California surf! Needless to say you sleep very well at night. ;)

[NetDoc]

Hey Mario,

I did not find ANYONE willing to teach Rescue Diver in the surf around here. That did not make much sense to me, but ALL of the classes I checked into did all of their training in a lake or pool. I would love the challenge to do it in the surf, but one instructor even said he would be opening himself up to liability if he did it that way.

Pete from Orlando...

[Mario S Caner]

Heck, just ask any of my students... I've elected to cancel the class dive and just do a fun dive with my students on many occasions because there wasn't 'enough' surf for a rescue diver class. Most students are happy about manuevers like that, because they still get to dive, and they know they are getting good training in real world conditions. Just think about it, how hard is it going to be to do your first real rescue in the rough when you're used to ankle biter waves?!?

[NetDoc]

Hey Mario & All,

Florida surf just ain't that bad either. Apparently my instructor was more worried about the preponderence of sharks that are patrolling our surf line. Florida has more shark bites (very seldom fatal) than anywhere else. Little nippers too! He doesn't like surf diving either! Out in the open ocean, there are very few and they can see you well enough to know you are not on the menu. Of course gators can be fun too... I have been approached but never molested. Then there was the time we were fossil hunting in the lower Peace River (finding lots of Megladon teeth and manatee bones), one of the dive party grabbed a large specimen, only to find out it was someone's tail... HAH!!! He shot to the surface like a rocket!!! I think he even tried to walk on water when he got there. We never did see the gator, but we always call John the "Gator Hunter"... Sometimes low vis is just cool!

Pete from Orlando...

[Mario S Caner]

OMG, LOL that's too funny. Bet that guy never grabbed anything else without making sure it was dead huh! LOL!

[NetDoc]

Hey Mario,

I have been scared before, myself, but never had THAT reaction. Thnk goodness that most of our river diving is in the 15' to 20' range. BTW, Florida has more fossils than anywhere else. It's a fun thing to do, especially the ancient reefs just south of Tampa. You never know what you will find.

Pete from Orlando...

[vr]

Originally posted by NetDoc
Hey All,
However, to say that an agency is responsible only for bad figures and not for good ones, does a dis-service to any plausible paradigms. Pergamentum inuit, exit pergamentum... (garbage in, garbage out). Again, I would like to view accidents by agency, with the various factors weighed in. I could then draw my own conclusions.
It's not really a disservice at all. It's a bit like when blood types were used for paternity tests. Certain blood types could rule out paternity, while others could not establish it and only allowed for the possibility of paternity.

You should read that article. You'd understand that there is a lot more to determining the quality of education by agency than the accident rate. How confident and well prepared they are is one of them, how prepared they are for varying conditions is another. Their buoyancy skills, or lack of them, are other indicators.

I know in our dive club we see a lot of newly certified divers and many don't feel they learned enough. It shows when they are in the water. The diligence of our divemasters and experienced members, combined with their own attitude and aptitude, help make them into much better divers. You can't rightfully credit their agency certification for their and our work.

The kind of figures you mention don't exist, and would still be meaningless if they did. In fact, just about all of the figures about sport divers are guesswork and you can find a big difference in the guesses from one group to another.

Good judgment says that a better trained diver is a better prepared diver. My judgment tells me that ignorance and a bare minimum approach are not appropriate in a life support situation.

[NetDoc]

Hey VI & All,

No data on accidents??? I am sure DAN has them, and is working on getting a handle on them. Do they ask what the certifying agency is? Has anyone seen a DAN accident report?Do we have access to them? I am not sure, if any of us have even tried? Whenever I hear people qualify results that they don't know, or won't share, it indicates to me that there is possibly more than meets the eye. That there is something being hid. Are we going to have a "The data does not support my thesis, so throw the data out" mentality? Or would it be prudent to let as many minds as possible mull over their reality.

BTW, I read that article back when this thread first began... interesting reading, but I do not agree with all of the conlclusions. There are voluminous factors that affect any and every situation... diving is no different! For any patterns to emerge, we must associate as much of the data as possible. If some of these associations are erroneous, that too will be made clear over time. Just as in diving, give he high vis... hide nothing from me I might think is valuable.

Finally, to withhold data because we might "mis-interpret" it, is an affront to me and every other diver. Do not be concerned HOW I might interpret the data, just let me have the data. Professionals built the Titanic; amatuers built the Ark.

Pete from Orlando...

[scubazen]

Hey Jon,
I read that you are going to do your IDC. Why?
Phil

[turnerjd]

Originally posted by scubazen
Hey Jon,
I read that you are going to do your IDC. Why?
Phil

Why?? Because I am fed up with the generally poor quality of instructors I come across.

No - I won't be teaching for money after. If People want to buy me beer in exchange for teaching them, and are prepared for a course that is much longer than necessary for PADI standards then I will teach them, if not well - they can learn elsewhere. I already have a long list of diving friends who want to do advanced, rescue etc... with me, and a couple that would be quite happy to DM with me.

Also - If I want to eventually start a TIR (Teach it Right!!) agency, then I at least ought to have some internationally recognised diving instructor qualification, as well as experience etc.. (I am also doing the FFESSM 2* instructor course at the moment)

Jon T

[Bob]

Jon T,
I'm in agreement with you on this one! Certification has become too easy and the quality of the divers being certified confirms it! Anyone been out on a dive boat lately? I was paired with a cocky young guy who wanted to argue about the necessity of making a safety stop after a 60' dive.I finally told him that he could do as he liked, but I was making my safety stop. Makes one wonder how he ever got his card.
My idea of DIR is not so much how we gear up or the type gear that we wear. Producing a skilled and competent diver begins with teaching him or her the basics well and making sure the student diver understands what they've been taught and can confidantly demonstrate and articulate what they've been taught. We need more people Teaching It Right instead of offering easy two day certification classes.
:tree:Bob

[scubazen]

Follow up to PADI versus SDI

Hi Guys,
I recently started to write on this board. It is new for me and I am quite impressed with the number of people getting connected. Sorry for my English: my mother tongue is French. I have been teaching diving for eleven years in different country’s and different languages. It’s been a lot of fun and I still enjoy doing a Discover Scuba. Today, I am a PADI Course Director. This is my highest rating. I also became a CMAS ** instructor in France 4 years ago. I enjoy cave diving, so I decided to do the Full Cave Diver certification course. Today, I live and teach in Florida.
The point I would like to emphasize today is about the quality of training. There are to many people out there that think that most of the instructor trains crappy divers and they will do a better job than the others. Teaching diving is a great activity that is not for everyone. Too many people think they will enjoy it and have an easy life. It is very hard. You don’t have always the perfect student you are looking for. Sometimes in one class, you will have at least three different progression levels. The great point about the PADI system is that it is performance based. Students have objectives, they have to reach them and that’s it! We also emphasize on repetition. This is why we use assistant. The Open water course is very well designed. It includes everything a diver need at this level. After the class, it is up to the diver to continue training and practice to become a better diver. Most of the instructors are doing a good job. They have a hard life for not much money. With an average of $1200 a month, you don’t do much. Why they still do it? Because they love it! I still love to see a student been able to clear a mask after few unsuccessful attempts.
The problem here is the attitude of the diver. Some of them think they are very good even if they are not. I also dive for pleasure. As you said, some divers on the boat are not very good. Is it a reason for them not to dive? I don’t think so. If there is receptivity, I will help the diver with few tips. Discussion can be very constructive. It has to be done on a non-aggressive way. I have seen to many professionals shouting at divers because they had made a mistake. It won’t help. As a professional, you can do the best to assure that your students will be good and safe divers. Once they are gone, it is up to them. If they want to drop to 240ft, what can you do? You will not be there when it will happen. Accidents happen all around the world. Not only with beginners. Few days ago, we lost two divers in Florida caves. The first one had no cave training and the second one was a very respected cave instructor! I have a huge file of similar stories. Myself, I have also done stupid things underwater. I was lucky. The more training you have, the better it is. It is not only taking course after course. It is in every dive, being properly prepared, trying to identify what can go wrong and prevent the situation. Some one made reference to flying. It is the same. If you don’t practice, you become roasted. I got my private pilot license two months ago. I still have a long way to go to feel I am a good pilot.
People criticize PADI because they are the most exposed. We don’t ear very often about poor SSI or FFESSM training (I have a bunch of stories also about those two). Everybody knows PADI. They have the best instructional system in the world. Believe it or not, some instructor from other agencies use PADI product for their classes. Why? Because they are good. I think SDI allow SDI instructor to use PADI material for their classes.
Recently PADI launched the TECREC program. PADI members have asked for this kind of product because their client where looking for it. They where going to go deep, even if no course existed. By offering proper training, we will decrease accident.
Just a reminder; when PADI introduced the modular Scuba course in 1986, diving fatalities dropped significantly. Why not the same today with TecRec?
The PADI system is very strict for the instructor. He has to follow strict standards. New agency like SDI attract instructor because the workload is reduced. I am the kind of instructor that believes that the student must repeat exercises in open water. It is a verification of performance and a good things for his self-confidence. Mask removal amd replacement at 6 feet in the pool is not the sam than at 60 feet in OW.
PADI is also criticized as a business! What’s wrong with that! I don’t have another job and if I want to eat, I have to teach! Some instructor teaches for free in Diving club. It is a different subject. They have a day job! It does not mean that their students are better trained!
The beauty about diving today, is that almost everybody can do it. Training is very important; but at the end of the day, what’s most important? The diver. It is his responsibility to make the right choice about his diving experience. If he is listening, we can help. If not, maybe you will remember when you parent told you something and you did the opposite. If we could trained the attitude of certain divers and certain instructors, perhaps there will be less friction on a dive boat.

Tomorrow, I am going wreck diving in Fort Lauderdale.


Philippe

[NetDoc]

Well said mon ami, well said. What you lacked in english, you more than made up for with a passion for the sport and your trade that few can argue with. I am with you %100!!!

[gjenks]

I am certified with SSI and am pleased with the insructors and the training. But am wondering why I see no mention in these procedings about SSI? When I certified I made a lot of mistakes and they were addressed with acknoledgment of the fact that the responsability of my life is myself. If someone knows of a shortcoming with the training I can make the proper adjustments. I love diving, and really appreciate the response's I recieve from this board.