Make Good Money as a Scuba Instructor

[captdave]

This Thread is devoted to those who want to make a good living teaching scuba. It is not for the communists who want to give it away. It is for those truly interested in a professional career in diving that will pay them what it is worth.. It is not for the budget minded diver there are plenty of shops that will cater to them. This is for those who want to make real money at this and are willing to post information to help professional do just that. In my next post I will input all of the information I have previously posted on the last thread entitled ethical.

[Duca]

While my goal may not be to "make it rich with SCUBA", I'll be interested in the posts to this thread.

I'd be especially interested in realistic information, as opposed to that stuff you posted in the other thread about luxury yachts, expert support staff and exotic locales...

Seems like there are a lot of people here who would be genuinely interested in a career in the industry, but those people have real life factors which mean they have to support (and live with...) a family, remain in a certain geographical location (which might not be a remote tropical paradise), and possibly even work within a modest start-up budget (preventing them from buying out Peter Hughes as a first step).

[rstone]

It is true i didnt get into this for the money, but like most people who approach a career in this fashion later discover.. the bills continue to come in regardless of how much passion you have for something or not and like everything else no matter how we look at.. it is a business just like anything else and should be treated as such.. like i said before if this would work in my area id jump at it in a heartbeat.. not because im looking to scam people, but because i have chosen this as my profession and have to pay my bills just like everyone else. id be really interested in any "proven" information or advice you might have.

[SpyderTek]

ALRIGHT!

Lay it on us Capt!

I was just expecting to be able to use my instructor's certification to be able to travel and live in exotic locations for long periods at a time (read 3 to 6 months) but if there is a way to make money also!? I'm down with that! Heck, I'd even sign a non-disclosure form to get THIS information.


Expectantly,

SpyderTek

[syruss32]

On ebay I saw a scuba seminar posted for $10,000 it claims that he will teach you how to make 100-125 an hour. Not sure if it is still there or not, but it looked like the guy was selling vapor-ware except in training!

[captdave]

You guys sure do a lot of crying. Nobody promised you a rose garden...Unfortunately when you learn how to teach scuba nobody tells you how to make money as a scuba instructor. There are courses available in this. Frankly to make any money in this industry you need to be an independent who works loyally with his or her scuba shop. Loyalty is the key word.
If any of you out their want to learn there is some great books "How to make money as a scuba instructor" This is how I learned to do multi level training? Boy that really boosts your income and does not cause you to skip standards>
Another good reference is How to make $10,000.00 in Two weeks teaching scuba...It is being done all the time.... I did it.
Potential students have a belief that all certification classes are created approximately equal and they tend to make decisions on their entry-level dive course based on price. Once they have found cheap.. They stay cheap.

Frankly if you are not making $100,000.00 a year teaching scuba your screwing up. It may take a few years to establish your client base but it is attainable and sustainable.

Well here goes guys.
The first thing you have to do is to set yourself apart from the regular run of the mill scuba instructor. You need to make a deal with your dive shop. Believe me any dive shop owner will love you if you make good money because they make a lot more with you than with the regulars that just say; where is my next student.
The Deal.
Tell your shop that you will keep working with their pay scale but that you want to bring in your own students aside from theirs and that you will charge them yourself. You will sell only the shops scuba equipment and charter the shops dive boats. You must set up a commission on your sale of equipment as this adds to your income. You should ask for 15% and settle for 12%. Now think about that. If you train 100 students a year and they spend $1500.00 on scuba equipment. That figures out to about $18,000.00 at 12% and you haven't even put your foot in the pool. The key is to sell scuba equipment complete packages to your students. This requires selective students on your part.
The dive shop owner will love this...
Have any of you trained a 100 students a year. I do it all the time.. It is easy...
The trick is to get the quality students you want and how to keep them loyal to you so your back end (repeat business and sales) defies industry standards.
This is not easy. Do not get the idea it is get rich quick deal it takes a lot of work and commitment but it is attainable. Keep an open mind....
Scenario #1
your average class is 9 students 6 guys and 3 girls.
Your in cold water and so everybody has to wear wetsuits strap on 25-30 pounds of weight then one of the girls has to pee. You tell her to pee in her suit when you get in the water. You make a surf entry.
Someone gets seasick; a weight belt is lost. Someone needs more weight. Buy the time you finish the skills and time to go on the tour 2 guys are nearly out of air one of the girls is exhausted and they look at you like are you sure this is the fun stuff you promised...4 of the guys can't wait to go again. Two guys stare at you in disbelief.and there is another dive for cert. dive # 2.

Or you could:


#2 scenario.
Your luxury live aboard has just anchored in the sand off
the Turks and Caicos.Your in 30 feet of water with 83-degree water temperature. A shallow reef is nearby.
You prepare your dive float and toss it 10 feet off the stern. You tell the boats other instructors your plans.
Next you assign each of your students a number say 1 to 10
That right I said 10 students. When 1 is on the platform ready to dive #2 begins to suit up with the help of the other two instructors.
You and student #1 descend to 30 feet with 100-foot visibility
and 83-degree water temp. You’re in skins with 4 lb. of weight and the student is wearing 8lbs.
Your dive master is waiting with your underwater video camera. You have a full-face dive mask with one way communication to your student and two-way communication to your divemaster. After 15 minutes you ascent completing all of the skills.
The crew assist this diver outs of the water and shows him how to tank up again.and stows his gear. About the same time student #2 descents with Instructor #2
Student #3 ready to dive with you again now looses his weight belt. No problem the boat crew simply hands another one and the lost belt is retrieved later.
After about 2 hours all of your students are done with the skills.
The boat crew is setting up lunch on the sundeck and you debrief your students with your videotape of their skills (Video is not necessary for this to work).
You then prepare them for their second dive and announce that there will be an afternoon fun and experience dive planned for all divers.

Now.
Which class would you like to teach ?

Here we go again!
First of all if your local shop won't work with you (They are Dinosaurs) Now is as good as anytime to make good money as a scuba instructor. There at literally dozens of shops that will.you DO NOT HAVE to have a local shop to work with. I own a shop and would love to have you work with Mme. know a shop in Mexico that will give you classroom pool facilities dive masters instructors etc. I also have these available for any instructor free of charge. Just sell my equipment is all I ask, and I will give you a top commission. All live aboard have these services available to you.
Logistics, Logistics.Logistics. This is the key. Let me explain further. I should be charging you all big money for this information maybe some time down the road you will work with me or sell equipment to your students from my shop or my on line scuba catalog <http://www.diveremporium.com>

The point is there is two ways to teach scuba:

LOW TICKET AND HIGH TICKET!
1.Low ticket logistics Cold water, Thick wetsuits lots of weight, surface swims no restrooms, low vis, emergency equipment 10 minutes away, possible overheating, possible hypothermia, surf exits, lost equipment hard to retrieve.etc.etc.etc.

2. High ticket logistics=Warm water, lycra suits, low weights, food served, emergency equipment seconds away, 100 foot visiblity, great underwater scenery, extra dive equipment seconds away, showers to rinse off, one step entry, no float towing, easy to retrieve lost equipment, backup instructor, crew available to assist.

If diving is hard many of your students will not like it. Introduction to diving must be easy fun and your students; all of them must love it. If they do chances are they will keep doing it WITH YOU making it easy for you, as you don't have to go out and find so many new students.

The cafeteria style of training students is stupid makes nobody any money and produces less than adequately trained divers.

I know what you’re thinking: This sounds real good but none of my students can afford it or they can get it cheaper in my local shop

DONT YOU BELIEVE this. It is just plain WRONG!

True, The Turks and Caicos,, Grand Cayman, Hawaii, Australia, Belieze, Cozumel,The Sea of Cortez,The Bahamas,
Roatan,Palau,IS MORE EXPENSIVE! That is just what you want.
People get into this because they have seen the TV Pictures of these exotic dive vacations. Not to dive a Quarry.

Just because you think something is expensive does not mean they think it is expensive have had to fight some of my instructors to ask for $500 up front deposits because they thought this was too much. It is not too much and it is non-refundable as well.

TO many people $3000.00 for a week of safe fun and adventure is cheap. People spend this every day for adventure travel, ecological trips, and yes-even scuba.

If you cannot grasp this concept (GOOD BYE) you will spend your career-teaching budget minded students that want to dive "Cheap" I throw them out of my shop.

This type of "Client" will never allow you the income necessary to explore the great dive sites of the world; you will have to have a real job. Or live back in the compressor room to make ends meet. I have done this. Scuba is a great job but living in the shop back room gets old after a while.

Think about all of the people who dive regularly aboard the big live aboard fleets like the Agressor, Peter Hughes livaboards, and etc.etc.etc. If people could not afford to dive aboard these expensive fleets then the fleets would be shrinking right! Wrong! They are growing like crazy, in 1984 they started with one boat in less than ten years they expanded to all the great dive spots with 9 boats and they are still growing today and up grading there fleets.

THE MOST EXPENSIVE DIVE SITES ARE THE MOST POPULAR!

There is no shortage of people who can picture themselves diving in style but there is a severe shortage of scuba instructors who can imagine themselves working exclusively with clientele that travels, explores, and dives, and purchases only the best equipment. Equipment that you tell them to buy.

If you believe that a normal class sells from $100-$400 starts in a pool, then travels to the local beach, blue hole, quarry. Then you are destined to be one of the small minded mediocre dive instructors who never gets past the dreaming stage of great diving and then you face the reality get a real job and hate it.

I am sorry if this insults some of you but unless you are brand new you know what I am saying is true. You may be the best technical instructor there is but if you don't get the correct mind setting you will live the dark side of the scuba instructor business. Don’t blame me. I am trying to show you the way.

Lets face it teaching scuba is hard work. Don’t you think your services are valuable? Your customers trust you with their lives! Then why should you get paid less than a car mechanic should, massage therapist, or handyman.

Considering your responsibility and the liability. You are worth the pay of a doctor, lawyer, professor, and etc.etc. IF YOU ARE VERY GOOD!

Some of the cert. agencies don't like this because they make their money by the numbers.the more students, divemasters, instructrs etc. that get pumped out is how they make their money. Don’t get me wrong. I love all of these agencies they provide us a valuable service but if you follow the traditional system you end up not teaching scuba and they just pump out another one to take your low paid place and as everybody has heard. We do this because we love it. It is a live style and money is not the object!
BULLROAR! I do this because I want to dive the top sites in the world make great friends and live the way one is supposed to.
I know this because I have lived both sides of this track!

Should I go on?

Hey Beluisi

I don't think you have been listening to me. It does not matter where you are. Cold climates are really the best to use this system. Colorado certifies more divers than some coastal areas. They all have to travel to dive. What matters is how you acquire the students and where you take them. Again I repeat if you start with cheap students you get no where. I have heard this over and over again about how they run down the prices. IF I get someone who tries this tactic on me I politely tell him or her they would be happier diving elsewhere and pass on them. They are not worth your time or effort.
There are many more students who will be glad to take your advice on what to purchase and what the true value of the equipment is.

The Diving industry has prostituted it self and that really works in our favor as we are the elite of a system that frankly makes it more easy for me to make real money.

I can see you have been on the dark side for too long if your license is still in tact you can do this part time to get started and then after a while you will be able to switch to full time top dollar earning scuba instructor.

Should I go on with the how and where’s?

[captdave]

Hey Duca,
You do not need any money for this to work.. You do not need to own a dive shop and you only need to work 1 week a month while you are diving in the best dive sites of the world. You don't have to work that hard to make $50,000 a year. Im talking about one dive trip a month to make the $100.000. SO you go every other month for the 50..Besides it takes time to develop a clientel so you can start on a budget....

[joewr]

there were darn few communist nations left on this planet Dave! I think we buried most of them during the Reagan years. Just what are you so hung up on about communists? Can't you just invite folks to hear what you have to say without invective? Give us a break, Dave, we are over 21 and most of us lived through the Cold War...and saw the Berlin Wall come down!

Joewr...inveterate capitalist...West Coast Style...

[syruss32]

Originally posted by joewr
there were darn few communist nations left on this planet Dave! I think we buried most of them during the Reagan years. Just what are you so hung up on about communists? Can't you just invite folks to hear what you have to say without invective? Give us a break, Dave, we are over 21 and most of us lived through the Cold War...and saw the Berlin Wall come down!

Joewr...inveterate capitalist...West Coast Style...

I love ya Joewr, your 'da man!

[joewr]

"In God we trust"...all others bring data!

Well, here are some course prices for OW cert in various "paradise" locations:

Maui Dive Shop, Maui, HA $350---40 hours of instruction

Chris Sawyer, St. Th., USVI $595---5 "days" of instr.

Kauai Divers, Kauai,HA $495---3-5 "days" of instr.

Habitat Resort, Bonaire $300--4 "days" of instr.

So, in Paradise for small classes it looks like ca. $10-20 per hour is the rate...and that is the total rate including the dive shop's cut.

These are all for classes of one to two divers. To make more money, you would have to charge more or have larger classes, not a very competitive concept...especially in a capitalistic system!

I was certified in the Virgin Islands in a class of two--it took 5 1/2 full days...nearly 60 hours. And if you can afford the the time and money, it is a great way to do it, but the teachers were not quite in the millionaire category!

Joewr

[SpyderTek]

Yes, sure the class is about the same price no matter where you go in the world...

But Capt is talking about more than just the sticker price. He's talking the price of the class, Pluse the price of the liveaboard, plus the price of the equipment they didnt bring and now need to buy. Etc....

Even for thos of us with our own equipment and airfair and stuff the average price I am seeing for "dive weeks" to Bonaire, Coz and Balize are $1500.

I can totaly see what Capt. Is saying. And can see how it works...

However, not just anyone can do it. It takes a sales person's personality to be able to sell the big ticket items consistently.

SpyderTek

[joewr]

And the ones who make it big offer something unique! When we talk about making money, the language is the same all over the world. There is something called Return on Capital Employed (ROCE): it is a measure of how successful one is a recovering his investment...somewhat like an interest rate.

Now,if you want to make money on your own, you usually need to make an investment. When an investor looks for a place to put his money, he looks for an high ROCE and in this capitalistic world (which I love). And there are lots of folks constantly looking for investments: banks, private investors, etc. But I can assure you that they will expect anyone they entrust their money to to have a good "story", including a very good ROCE.

If it takes no investment to make money, there will be a lot of competition--and it will make it hard to charge high prices.(Case 1) This should be common sense; if I offer you a chance to make a lot of money with no effort, wouldn't you jump at it?

If it takes a lot of money, then only folks with a lot of money or who can get a loan or financial backing will be able to enter the fray.(Case 2)

In competition theory, Case 1 is said to have a low entry barrier and Case 2 could have a high entry barrier if money is tight.

You can raise the entry barrier to your competition by having a unique product or skill. Microsoft is a great example of a unique product...and Mr. Gates' fortune is the result.

Now, what is the demand for high cost dive training? And how much do you have to invest to get the business? What is the purchase price or lease rate for a live-aboard? How much to crew it? How much for all the equipment? How about the cost of carrying all that inventory to sell things to folks who forgot all that gear? (How many $500 Henderson Golds are you willing to carry, for example.)

I spent a lot of years in business and have seen a lot of get quick rich schemes...most of the "rich getting" was done by the guys selling the schemes.

In fact, I have thought that the best way to get rich is to write a book on how to get rich--and get rich on the royalties! And that brings me to my final point: P.T. Barnum said it best, "There is a sucker born every minute--and two to take his money."

Well, enough. I hope I did not offend anyone...

Joewr...at a loss for words

[captdave]

This information is give free. There is no get rich scheme here. Believe me this takes a whole lot of work.

Here is the next bit of information...

The way to do this is to package the program that appeals to people willing to spend money for a great adventure and lots of fun. Plus how to find these people
This means you are no longer giving scuba lessons or scuba classes.

What you are selling is SCUBA SEMINARS.

You charge your clients $3000.00 for an all-inclusive trip to one of the great dive resorts.

You can get the entire package as stated earlier a lot cheaper and that is what you do. You make the arrangements with the dive centers and the hotels and the boats etc. You should be able to get the entire week with food lodging and diving for around $850.00 add another $100.00 for incidental and your total cost for this seminar is $950-$1000.00. You use the resort facilities for your classrooms; pool or pool like conditions in the ocean equipment rental etc. etc. etc. Your students must supply their own basic 5 pieces of equipment (Mask, snorkel, fins, gloves, and boots). You make sure they get this equipment from you and your chosen dive shop that will work with you.

You can then make arrangements for their air fare to your resort that can cost anywhere from $500-$1000.00 Australia is $2000.00 so you have to charge the extra for the numbers to work out.

You take ten students on your scuba seminar and that leaves you with a cool profit of $10,000.00 for one week’s work. You can do this 10 to 12 times a year.
The great benefit of this type of seminar is that the people have paid a great deal of money to go on this adventure.
I can assure you many of the problems we are used to in the budget scuba class never happen. For Instance: Late and missed classes, late and unfinished assignments, classes that start out with 9 students and end up with two, too many worked hours for fee collected. Problems collecting the money, Students who just wanted to buy their C Card, Wives who really do not want to take the lessons but their husbands insisted, etc.

When people pay this kind of money they really want to do it and they don’t screw around. Plus the money is all collected up front with no refunds.

THIS DIVING ADVENTURE MUST BE A CONTINUING EXPERIENCE>

You follow up with the Advanced Course and 50-60% of the first students will go on to the Advanced Seminar. They will do this within the next year.

Now a great way to go is to create the basic and advanced in back to back weeks and you save the airfare for the second trip and your profits go way up.

This program develops superior divers from regular people. This means you must teach a superior course.

Next I will get into the meat and potatoes of this system. Where and how to find these students. The dynamics of a high priced scuba seminar and how to find the kind of customers it takes to make you what you are really worth as a scuba instructor.

Remember the Cert. Agencies have a vested interested in turning out a lot of students to do this they need for you to keep your prices reasonable. There are now three generations of scuba instructors who believe that this low budget system is the way to market scuba instruction. Continue on this path and make no money or
Copy a successful Instructor who actually made money in the business. Remember this stuff has worked and is time tested in not only scuba but also many other ventures.

[joewr]

Well, I do not intend to give a course in Business 101, but I will make one last post here on this topic(I promise).

Let's list the incidentals:

Insurance...do you think a resort will let you use their pool without insurance? And do you think liability insurance is cheap?

The Resort...do you think they will let you use their pool for free? How about a free room for classes? How many resorts have you been to where there is anything that is free? Believe me they have MBA's somewhere who will figure out your costs and not let you make a rate of return that is obscene! In fact, they might even go into competition with you. In fact, they already are: Chris Sawyer on St. Thomas has such an arrangement with a resort; the only thing lacking is air arrangements. And there are others...check the dive mags.

10 divers x 10 to 12 times a year = 100 - 120 divers...Ask your local dive shop how many divers a year they teach?

Cost of teachers...Aren't you going to pay them anything?

Competition...I can get a class of one or two people for the same price. Why should I go to you for my class of 10?

Advertising...You would be amazed at what it costs to run an ad in a national magazine.

What is offered here is basically what a travel agent does...now, there is an industry that is not famous for producing lots of millionaires!

Finally....no, I've written enough...


Joewr

[captdave]

Hi Joewr

As a scuba instructor your yearly insurance covers you where ever you teach. This is high quality insurance that is covered by LLoyds. You can add additionally insured pools, resorts, boats, etc at no cost to you. That answers that.
The reasoning for 10 people is not only for the money but your are creating dive buddies.These people will want to continuing with their new dive friends and they will all want to dive with you.

The resorts and dive boats I work with provide these services for free if you ask them. I always tip the instructors and helpers nicely and they remember because they aren't making squatt from the resorts etc.

There are virtually no advertising cost if you know the rest of the story. How to market to the right kind of people. I am talking direct marketing. Spending money on expensive adds is a waiste of money. I have done it and it does not work. Frankly I would rather take a trip to Las vegas as I get more for my buck.

Most dive shops have to push the numbers of students to break even because they are in a local bidding war all the time. Here is a good question you should ask? How many students drop out of scuba after their initial training?
This figure is very high and an embarresment to not only the shops but the cert. agencies as well.
This is because they have to do the cafeteria style of training and people do not have the great fun and adventure they thought this would be.
We give them a week of top quality superior training in one of the worlds greatest resorts or livaboards and let me tell you most of all of my students are still diving and loving it.

[socaldiver]

Capt Dave,

I have always had problems with people wanting to "share" get rich ideas with other people, what's in this for you?

Secondly, I believe the vast majority of people that are either looking to get into scuba or buying gear are going to do research prior to this major expenditure and realize that your "paradise" training is far more expensive than what they can do on their own.

And finally, do you work for Divers Emporium? If so, are you not showing a little conflict when they "Guarantee" the lowest prices on their products?

Inquiring minds want to know.

[Duca]

Well, I have no expectation of going into the SCUBA business. The only instructing I plan on doing probably going to be in the public safety sector or for friends/family... so maybe I'm not your target audience, but I still say your plans sound far-fetched.

No, this is not a negative attitude. I made a pile of money in the direct marketing industry years ago, so save your "dream stealer" speech. ;)

Joewr pointed out some of the real world hurdles that would have to be jumped.

I think it's great if your plan has worked for you. What would you think about bringing along one of us as DMs or AIs at some point to see for ourselves how you do it?

Meanwhile, one thing that really bothers me about your posts is the following statement:

"...spend your career-teaching budget minded students that want to dive "Cheap" I throw them out of my shop."

I don't think that attitude speaks very well for the industry... particularly if you are to be considered one of the "successful" ones or someone whose example should be followed.


Don't get me wrong, if you sincerely want to help people, that's great. Meanwhile, bragging about how you've got everything figured out and degrading potential students who aren't in the top tax bracket carries a shadow with it that, frankly, makes me doubt just about everything you've claimed.

BTW, I checked out your site and followed your training link. I didn't see any $3000.00 luxury yatch 10 student minimum certification programs, but I did find these (can you explain how to make $100k a year with them?):
('course, I might have missed the "big money" courses, if anyone else wants to look, here's Capt Dave's complete price list: http://www.seaofcortez.com/courses.html )

$ 225.00
Quick & Easy
Canyon Lake, Arizona


269.00 Certification
Weekend getaway!
San Carlos, Mexico


$100.00 Tuition Fee Includes:

Five Classroom Sessions in our comfortable fully equipped classroom
Four Pool Sessions in two days in an Olympic sized heated pool, convenient, comfortable and safe.
Use of All Scuba Equipment for pool training. Cylinders, Regulator Systems, Buoyancy Compensator, Wetsuit and hoods. All maintained by Factory Trained Equipment Specialists.
Clean Fresh Breathing Air that meets OSHA Standards and is tested regularly for your safety and comfort. (Certificate available upon request).
Internationally Recognized Scuba Certification by the largest, most prestigious Certification Agency in the world.
Largest Most Qualified and experienced Staff of Scuba Instructors In the State.

[ScubaBaby]

but I still have a point of view even tho this is "devoted to those who want to make a good living teaching scuba".

1....I dont think there are many that will pay stupid money to learn with 9 other students. I paid £300 for my Open Water...it was 4 1/2 days one on one! I couldn't have asked for more...other than some more fish - the med tends to be a tad bare!

2....$3000 for a trip....I could get 2 weeks all inclusive in the maldives for that and some! Not a chance in hell.

Captdave, you refered to people like me as "budget minded diver" just cause I am not willing to spend silly amounts.

I am sure most divers with sense would look round to see price comparables to courses and see that the prices quoted are very steep and would choose a cheaper alternative that gives the same quality of teaching...and maybe even better.

I know I am not an instructor, however I think this thread is best open to non-instructors as well, as we would be the ones paying for the courses you talking about.

Another point, the big organisations are trying to appeal to the young generations to get them into diving young, if this pays off, we will have more teenagers looking to do there O/W after doing PADI Seal and Bubblemaker etc...and I have strong doubts that they'll be able to afford these prices you seem to feel are suitable.

Just my thoughts.
NB. The prices your quoting on the board and the prices you charge on your webpage seem a tad different, if this is the way to earn the money...how come you dont do it?

[svs3]

I guess to start making big bucks in the scuba industry, I'll just have to take some time off from my part-time job making millions a years buying and selling real estate with no money down.

BTW, CaptDave, I'm keeping my eye out for the infomercial. ;)


Gimme a break,
Sam

P.S. I don't know about you but I not sure I'd want to cave dive with "Mexican Guides trained by Captain Dave in Merida" (photo on bottom left of page) http://www.seaofcortez.com/cenote.html

[WetDane]

Ok - so I was about to say good riddance - ever since the gas mask thing I have had an aversion to Capt. Dave and that happens...

However - from a purely marketing point of view - the idea of getting %incetitives on sales seem like a good idea...

All is not well in the scuba industry, if you read the material closely you will see a couple of good ideas and we had some discussions on this a while back as far as how to improve "staying" in the sport and therefore laying more money for equipment.

I am about to start running dives the weekends following OW certification, when I was cerfied nobody bothered to - alas - it took a long time before I got back in the water.
The dives would get people out and diving and excited about AOW a month later...

I will keep you posted on the turnout.

Big T

[syruss32]

Why is it because you realize there are like 1600 or so divers watching you put both feet in your mouth.

I imagine business from us will come to a standstill cause we are so stupid.

Can you send pictures of the "foot in mouth" experience you are having?

[ScubaBaby]

CaptDave, please dont.

I am sorry if you feel we have all ganged up on you in this thread, its just everyone feels so relaxed with one-another that we feel we can express our feelings with the other person understanding....we tend to forget that with all our imput it can end up looking very hurtful from you point of view.

We aren't all out to gang up on you, merely to share our own points of view. And unfortunately, I guess you opened up a can of worms that was best left closed.

I do not think this thread should be deleted, simply down to the fact it is educational for both diving and for how we treat other members.

I am sorry you feel ScubaBoard has done you an injustice...I hope you will reconsider and give us another try.

Again, my apologies.

[captdave]

This thread was intended for information on how to make real money as a scuba instructor.. I welcomed all questions and any information that was in that area.
It seems that a few of the regulars felt it necessary to only find fault with many of the views expressed rather than to ask questions or to add positive information..Because of this I have asked that this thread be deleated..
I can no longer find the energy to try and give information that I have proved that worked for me . I hope any of you out there at the scuba board who wanted to learn will not be put off by all of this. If you want e-mail me and I will continue with my dialogue privately with you.
Sincerely,

[Zagnut]

" I can't take constuctive criticism and can't engage in healthy debate.. You all are stupid and I'm outta here!"
- a paraphrased post from Captdave that I guess he later deleted from this thread after calling all of us crybabies.

I read your post and I will say that if you can make that kind of money, I think that's great! Capitalism at it's finest. I would be willing to bet there are wealthy people out there who would like to learn in paradise, and I think that is great. I got my cert from a LDS who told me to buy his gear because all other gear is crap. I don't think I'm cheap because I don't want to pay $800 for a $400 BC...I think I'm smart. If you have the money, and don't have the time or wan't to expend the energy to do the research to get the best deal, more power to you. I don't call you stupid .. and I don't think you should call me cheap. The impression I got from my OW instructor/LDS owner was that if I don't spend my money on just what he tells me to buy at the price he says, then he doesn't want anything to do with me. Guess what? Not only did I not buy my $3,600 worth of gear from him, but I will get my continuing instruction from somewhere else. In fact I don't even get my air fills from him anymore. I mean, if what he's doing works for him, or what you are doing works for you, great!..more power to you. I'm not afraid to spend money, I just don't like feeling like I've been taken. And if I'm trying to focus on new instruction, I don't need the thought that my instructor is trying to swindle me, in the back of my mind. I want to have complete trust in my instructor. So, again I say, I have nothing against your approach. It's just not for me. I don't think I'm cheap. Like I said, a month after my OW cert, I went out and purchased $3,600 worth of very high quality gear. I just didn't pay more than I had to. In my opinion, that's smart...not cheap.

[WetDane]

I will second ScubaBaby's motion to keep the thread - I may not agree with everything said and that goes for both CaptDave AND some of the other members of the board.

I think that any discussion - no matter how much I disagree or think things might be a bit far fetched - I have to say that although the particular economic model may not appeal to me - there are a number of ideas that I find highly interesting and I may have to try it out just to see what happens.
I know people don't see the take home as $1000 a student - but looking at the math - it coudl be significantly more than what an instructor currently brings home.

I think that it is important to approach these things - not as a true/false statement, but rather as an idea for something bigger and better - I for one don't think I would do well selling like that - but I can see a number of things that could easily be implemented in a cold water environment.

Anyway, don't shut down the dialoque - and don't shut down your fellow members because you don't agree - this is like a TV, you can move on if you want.

Go diving,
Big T

[uwsince79]

all I have to say is, great comment......

[ScubaBaby]

I respect you very much for trying to share your thoughts and ideas.

Thank you for your email, but if you look make i am also one who doubts what you have to say. I may support you when your feeling bullied by others but I still do not see where your coming from considering what you say on the board and what you advertise in your dive shop are opposites.

The reason I wish for this to remain, is no matter how many people disagree, to disagree they must learn to opposite first...and thats what this gives people the opportunity to do - hope that makes sense!

CaptDave, all I can say is I hope in your eyes, this thread doesnt reflect the rest of the board and its members. I am sure if you stick around, you'll almost find us bearable.

Hope to see you around the board.

[Zagnut]

..that Captdave, you had some good and innovative ideas. Learning in paradise, the videotaping, these are good ideas. In fact, you should even have a guy on the boat with editing equipment, to quickly edit the footage while everybody eats or on the trip back to shore, and maybe add some background music or something, then offer a copy to your students for a small price. There's nothing wrong with offering good information or innovative ideas. It just that your original post was pretty condescending to those of us who aren't rich or maybe who are, but still like to get the most for their money. You made it sound like everybody who doesn't teach like you is stupid, and everybody who doesn't take your class is cheap..And I just think that that's not the case. That's why you got the responses you did.

[joewr]

A post was deleted on this thread because the management decided to delete it rather than delete the whole thread or close the thread. Thus, there will be some disconnects.

However, in the spirit of free interchange of ideas, it was thought that this was the best way to go. We do not delete threads or posts without considerable thought. The reasons usually have to do with inappropriate language, etc. They are NEVER because a regulator disagrees with a poster, NEVER!

Joewr

[captdave]

Thanks for the nice responses. I can see there are reasonable ones out there that want to look at a subject and offer concrete critizism..To answer your critic about the differences in shop prices and the posts is their is a totaly different operation in effect for the high end..I still have to compete on the low end. The high end is not advertised and never will be . It is marketed by direct marketing which I have not had a chance to tell you about as yet.
It has never been my intention to offend anybody. It was my attention to wake people up to the facts about what is and what is not...
I want people to offer any ideas they have on how to create a good paying job for our scuba instructors..As was stated earlier they don't get paid squat.

My model works I have done it.. Sure there are people who can get anything cheaper so why go with my group. This is handled quite effectively in the marketing area....

The math can be adjusted in either direction to fit into a particular area etc but it truly does work.

I again do not want anything for this information it is offered free...

Should I continue?

[WetDane]

I for one is very interested in your marketing ideas - although I have never seen direct marketing as the answer to things I have been involved with, I am an optimistic student of marketing (for many years) in general and always have an interest for ideas in a field that interests me.

Big T

[Zagnut]

I think you should. Whether you intended to or not, you opened up a good debate and created a pretty good thread. Add to it. Also, don't get too bent out of shape over us. We disagree often, but we generally believe that it's in the interest of the thread and not a personal attack. I think you should stick around. After reading your bio, I think you could add alot to the board.

[syruss32]

CaptDave,

I only object to your theory that if we disagree with you we are communists, or stupid, or stupid communists. The methods you mention may or may not work, I for one am always somewhat unbelieving when someone says some of what you said. MLM's are all like that. And if you are at the top you make the bucks if you are at the bottom you pay the bucks.

So my vote is if you want people to listen to your ideas, or you just want to express them, don't go spouting off. You have a history of that and it pisses others off and makes you look a fool instead of a person with an idea trying to share it.

Those are my 2 cents worth again.

[SpyderTek]

Ummm Syruss, These weren't coins...these were plugs!

hehehehe :goofy:

ST

[captdave]

OK guys I get the point.
First of all I know none of you out there are communists we did away with them. I want you to understand that it is OK to make good money and a lot of money teaching scuba. For too long scuba instructors have had to provide this wonderful service without proper pay. I want to see this change for as many as possible. If this causes prices to go up them maybe they should go up. I have stated earlier that it is in the interest of the Cert. agencies to keep prices low as they benefit by the numbers. I suspect they have even created an intense competition in order to keep their numbers high. I have to compete in this arena but I also have found another way outside the stream to make some good money. That Said.

The next phase of this plan is not MLM as someone suggested.
This is where the real work comes in. This is not an easy plan to promote and you will likely receive a lot of rejection before you strike the goldmine. The key is persistence persistence persistance.

Your target market.
Teach only to people who have access to money. This gives you enough money to provide the logistics necessary to put on a superior scuba seminar.

Your find your clients in-groups. The right client is a special type of individual. They are not leaders, they are not physically gifted and they are not independent thinkers.
They are not rugged adventurers, nor are they millionaires or celebrities.

They are joiners; they join groups, associations, clubs, and work for corporations.

Any group, churches, self-help groups, seminar companies, educational organizations, etc.
This is key to your success as the group phenonomin.

This means you can register your clients in bunches plus the group will recruit for you as the group endorses your seminar.

The age of the target market is 25-55 with an income from 31-79,000.00 per year.

The best way to approach the group is through the leader and get them hooked on scuba in doing so you will get the endorsement to register the flock.

Kiwanas clubs, bankers, mortgage brokers, chambers of commerce’s, rotary, lions, single clubs, even any of the self-help anonymous groups like AA can be an asset to your plans.

How would you like to get in at Microsoft, IBM, apple, Intel Hughes, Cisco, How about the thousands of other corporations that exist in our society.

You can go directly to the headman and offer to put on a free scuba demonstration to their employees and give the boss free lessons to see what your superior program consists of. This will justify the added cost of your program over the local competitors as well as give your program endorsement and the dominos will fall as the followers and joiners will want to please the big guy.

Avoid Doctors and Lawyers, as they are too independent and do not have enough free time for this program. And for a lot of other reasons will not work out. Now do not get offended you doctors and lawyers you just do not fit the profile for this plan to succeed.

The best people and the ones who go over and over again are the computer nerds, tech heads, engineers, etc.

They get hooked on imagined adventure and they love equipment especially computers, cameras, and regulators.
They find it an easier way to impress a girl than with their calculators, ram, dos, gigs, etc. and they have something to talk about with others that are interested in and willing to listen to them. Now I am not being sexist here it is just that 75% of the divers are men. I will talk about the ladies later. They love this, as it is a great place to meet men. Don't get mad at me these are the facts I am only the Messenger.

This is where the hard work comes in. This is not a get rich plan as you can see. You have to contact people, go talk and put on programs get the big guy hooked and this costs time and a little money. The big thing is it takes your time but if teaching scuba and wanting to make the big bucks this is the way to go.

People will not pay big bucks for a scuba class but will pay for a packaged, fun, adventure, travel, romance, (Safe) excitement, and ego enhancement. And as a famous salesman once wrote: Sell the sizzle, Not the steak

The right types of people buy benefits not features.

Keep in mind all of the "Right people" get from 1-4 weeks of vacation per year and they plan it 10-12 months in advance. So that is how far in advance you book your scuba seminars 12-14 months. That sure is not getting rich quick.

The Concept of Perceived value is why your program succeeds:

You are not selling scuba lessons: You are selling a unique package of superior training, adventure, etc. Now you have no competition, as you will be the only one in your area that offers this type of Scuba seminar package...

You are selling: The finest scuba course in the world, escape to the tropics with like minded people, cruise on a custom built luxury livaboard with state of the art scuba support systems and creature comforts. or the best resort in the area. You are selling fun, excitement, adventure, romance, and appealing to the ego.

The fact is people will pay much more for something if they perceive it to be more valuable. People will pay more to go with a group of friends and known instructors than with strangers. They will pay more to go with you, as their instructor will than they will pay to go on their own.

You have to wear a lot of hats in this program. As someone stated earlier, you have to be a travel agent good scuba instructor, a people person, a salesman, etc. etc.

This is not easy but it only takes a few groups to get you rolling.

When I first started. I used to book these exotic trips and was happy to get to go for free. That seems all well and good except that your rent, utilities bills etc. are coming in while you are on vacation...You have to be making an income for taking people away to these great places or you will loose you butt. I gave it away for free twice before the light went off. I have to compete locally with those same types of thinkers who give the dive trip away so they can go for free.

By packaging it as stated above this is not the run of the mill scuba class and dive travel trip. It is unique and the best there is to offer.

You have to get on the telephone call and talk to group leaders and make appointments. Advertising does not work as this is a special unique program you are offering to their organization....Of course business cards are a great help a brochure of the livaboard and pictures help a lot including slides of previous adventures. That is all you need to put this over. If you contact the finest resorts and livaboards they all will be glad to send you a video of their operation.

Shall I go on?

[Butch103]

I missed a couple of the postings. Damm can't miss a minute. hehehe

CaptDave I am not sure if your program works because I HAVE NOT TRIED IT and from what I can tell NO ONE ELSE on the board has either. So I am not sure why there are so bent out of shape.

Well I agree the inuendos of us being "stupid" and "cheap" were uncalled for we should listen with open minds.

I am unsure of everyones chosen careers and or jobs but I will give you a couple of thoughts.

I am in the investment business, and I deal with many varied clients. Some are multimillionaires and some are average blue collar workers trying to save a little or a lot extra for their retirement.

I can tell you this ........many of these people would pay 2-3 X the amount for a service or product than the average person or even some of the more well off clients.

I can see CaptDaves idea working for some. Folks this is not as far fetched as what you might think. These people will pay for the "pamered" service which they envision they will get. They will not only get certified, but certified in a exotic local. Now, we all know you can get this anyway, but if it is presented that this is "special" they will jump at it.

No, many of you are right in your comments, who in their right mind would do this ? and why? at such "inflated" prices.

Some and I mean some wealthy people would pay 2-3 X for any thing just because they can. I know I deal with these types almost everyday.

CaptDave........... As I told Syruss.........I don't like anyone to leave the board as we all have valuable input to make......Although I don't like to be insulted. I believe you have apologized for this an I accept on my own behalf your apology and await your next chapter in "making Money Teaching Scuba".

Butch :Peace:

[NJDiver_34]

I have to give it to you CaptDave, you have sure thought this thing out. Wheather it can work for everyone or not is a different story. I suspect one must have a great deal of charisma to have your program work for them. You now what they say, "If you cant dazzel them with knowledge, baffel them with bull*****!
NJDiver_34

[SpyderTek]

This is all 100% accurate information and works in principle for just about any sort of business. However, the information is nothing new.

CaptDave is totally right. These things WORK. But only if you have the right personality and look to sell them. It isnt something that anyone can go out and do. If you are able to do this with diving then you would also be able to do it with any travel package, Auto Sales, Infomercial, Amway, Etc. I often wish I had this sort of personality. instead I tend to get people annoyed. :)

Guess I'm just going to have to be happy with the idea that I will be a tropical drifter type scuba instructor that lives from paycheck to paycheck.

SpyderTek

[Butch103]

you are both right on the money.............ya gotta have the kajonies to do this ............

Butch :Peace:

[WetDane]

Hehe...
Whaddaya mean I can't impress a girl with my 10 terrabyte hard drive??? BS I say.

Big T

[Zagnut]

Captdave,

Now that's an approach that you didn't include in your earlier posts. You should have started with that info, then we might not have had all the ruckus. Oh well, ruckus makes for good reading.
Anyhows, the corporate angle is one I hadn't thought of. Many corporations purchase timeshares in exotic places for their employees to use while on their vacations and things of that nature. It is a "perk" to entice better quality employees. I guess your approach could be used by a corporation as a similar tactic. Often when corporations do this type of thing, they don't mind spending more money than necessary because it ultimately ends up as a tax write off anyways seein' as how it is seen as investing the money back into the company. I don't even think you would need alot of "kajonies". You would just need some decent salesmanship skills and know who to target. The IT industry seems like it would be a good start. Target the yuppie types. At least once that industry pulls out of it's recession. They may not be as likely to go for it now, than they would have been when the IT stocks were riding high. They might if it were a tax shelter and all although, I doubt that their industry is having trouble hiring good employees right now.

[captdave]

You guys sure can get a laugh out of me sometimes.Good humor always helps. Wow what a hard drive?
To zagnut. I think your tax angle idea is really good. I hadn't thought of that. Lets add it to the plan. There is nothing wrong with being a scuba instructor bum and traveling from exotic place to exotic place and living from paycheck to paycheck..If that's what you want. I think what I am talking about is making scuba instruction into a real job..

Any more good ideas out there ?

[Video Diver]

After reading some of his posts I feel like the old days when I came home after a hard night of drinking, plopped down in the couch with the TV on, and fix-stared at the thing without the energy to change the channel nor even really knowing what I was looking at. Coming out of the daze an hour or more later realizing that it was an INFOMERCIAL I had been staring at, all the while being hammered with the hypnotic, psuedo-charasmatic host who promised riches untold. A draining feeling to be sure! Would it work, who knows? Does the attempt leave most of those trying with that emtpy, helpless, frustrated feeling of just being had? I suspect so.

Bill
Bill@pwrvideo.com
http://www.pwrvideo.com

[bash]

While I acknowledge the principal of 'caveat emptor' (buyer beware) I feel betrayed by my local dive shop, which has taken a similar money-harvesting approach to me-the-customer.

As a new diver I was trying to find out about the world of diving (the gear I need, my options for purchasing comfortable equipment, the range of diving opportunities available, the social 'norms' for divers). The owner of my LDS fed me unbalanced information in the interests of snaffling my dollar.

It was like brainwashing a baby.

(It is interesting to note that this thread originally started out as a discussion on ethics.)

In a business where people-skills are so important (see the thread on 'what makes a good instructor') the long-term success of a diving business is a matter of loyalty. If you fire a staff member for providing honest advice to a paying customer, then you aren't being loyal to your customer. It doesn't take long for the customer to learn the value - or lack of value- of being loyal to such a shop (I speak from experience).

If you want to be ethical in the diving-business, think about how loyalty to the customer and return-business are linked.

Still, I have to acknowledge that my diveshop owner has a right to make a buck, the law is riddled with 'caveat emptor' (so I've been warned)..... and I have the right to take my buck to another dive shop.

-bash

[neil]

Deja vu all over again!
A few years ago, I answered an ad in the NAUI magazine "Sources". There was only a phone number and a line that said: "make a bazillion bucks teaching diving". So I call the number (Hawaii) and talk to a guy, named Dave I believe, who wanted to share his secrets with me. I've been a saleman, this guy was GOOD. He sends me a floppy with some more sales pitch on it and an offer to sell me the password for the rest, so I can have the complete plan laid out in detail. Only $500! He actually followed up with a number of calls to me before giving up. Capt. Dave, where's the punchline? I sincerely doubt that Dave is the Linus Torvalds of the scuba world.

Neil

[captdave]

:rolleyes:

To the basher and Neil. I guess you really do not know what loyalty is. You really do not know what you have missed by spending your money elsewhere. You are one of those type of customers I don't want in my shop. Get Out!!!

What you don't realize is that by supporting your LDS loyally then you begin to get more benefits than walking into the next shop for a better price. I love you guys cause I can undercut my competetor and I don't have to spend any time training you and taking care of what we call in the business (BABY DIVERS)

Had you had the loyalty factor your LDS you started with would have realized this fact and you would have received a lot of extra attention, more training than the minimum, special sale prices just for you and many other perks, A loyal customer is a friend we care about. .Now you don't get crap.

Think about how we make money in this business: Not in giving you training,we loose money most of the time..If we can make it up in the equipment sale then we can go on. With customers like you we go broke---So again I say to you Get out of my shop.. Eventually you will loose at everyshop as they soon learn you aren't worth the bother.
It because of customers like you I have had to put up a website to get the sale of scuba equipment at discount prices..I don't have to talk to you, I don't have to train you, and this way I can take the business away from my competetors. I now can spend the extra time really training my loyal customers.

Again I repeat if any of my staff send any customer to another shop then they are unethical and they wil be fired on the Spot!

I don't want to piss you off but I am pissed of by this stupid attitude..

[joewr]

CaptDave,

And I have the solution:

1. Close your shop so you do not have to deal with disloyal customers anymore.

2. Visit some hi-tech nerdy companies and put together about, say, 10 one-week-long dive trips for 10-12 of their employees for $3000 per person.

3. Make all the travel reservations and hotel reservations for them, but be sure to book them into coach class on some third world flag carrier; of course, you will meet them there after a first class flight to the destination.

4. Put them up 3 or 4 to a room in a decent resort; of course, you will have a suite.

5. Convince the resort to let you use its pool and conference room for free since you will fill up 40 of their rooms a year.

6. Sit back and watch the money roll in as these nerds crawl over each other to get in on your course...and give you lots of word of mouth advertising.

7. And you will not ever have to deal with that bane of capitalism: the customer. (Of course, you will have to dream up a new word for the nerdy guys. I have a suggestion:sucker )

Joewr...bowing to the wisdom of a new age Andrew Carnagie

[Lost Yooper]

Looks like ya finally hit it, Joe! :thumb: :jester:

[captdave]

You guys just love to crack me up. HA HA HA HA

My facts are true although delivered rather courseley to get a reaction. Here is the bottom line.

All scuba shops rate there customers. And of course the customer is always greeted with warm open arms and asked to come dive with us. "You will hear the term" We would love to have you come dive with us" While in the mind they are saying that so and so took his open water lessons from us and bought all of his gear from the shop down the street and the internet.

That is how I treat my customers with niceness and bull****. But the fact that still remains the same that customer will never get any type of consideration and extra help in their development. We will take their money but we will not consider them a good customer.

On the otherhand a customer who bought all his gear and takes all his training will get the extra mile in service and concern.. Better training, better position on the dive boat. the best of the hotel rooms. friendship, concern,etc. When we have a close out they get called and e mailed way before the rest of the slobs do....They have paid us for it. Guys like you just don't get it and never will.

This goes back a couple of generations that you tech heads don't remember.. Your parents and their parents used to shop at the same butcher shop and the same gas staion even when they could get the meat and gas cheaper at the bigger stores. Why do you think they did it. Simple they got something more from the shop that guys like you don't want to understand because you have grown up in the walmart generation....You are price motivated and thats ok.
The people in my business plan are also price motivated but they will pay more for the services because they perceive more.

All of the Tech companies are on their ass because they have confused customer loyalty vs customer service vs price. It cost money to provide customer service..Cheap ain't gonna get it...

It really is guys like you that have hurt the scuba industry but it has cost you and you will never know it because that LDS you screwed over with still great you with smiles.

In this forum I can tell you like it is cause you aren't my customer and I never expect you to be. Maybe I will get the idea to some others out there that there is usually a reason for a higher price other than trying to rip you off....

[neil]

Originally posted by captdave
:rolleyes:

To the basher and Neil. I guess you really do not know what loyalty is. You really do not know what you have missed by spending your money elsewhere. You are one of those type of customers I don't want in my shop. Get Out!!!

What you don't realize is that by supporting your LDS loyally then you begin to get more benefits than walking into the next shop for a better price. I love you guys cause I can undercut my competetor and I don't have to spend any time training you and taking care of what we call in the business (BABY DIVERS)

Had you had the loyalty factor your LDS you started with would have realized this fact and you would have received a lot of extra attention, more training than the minimum, special sale prices just for you and many other perks, A loyal customer is a friend we care about. .Now you don't get crap.

Think about how we make money in this business: Not in giving you training,we loose money most of the time..If we can make it up in the equipment sale then we can go on. With customers like you we go broke---So again I say to you Get out of my shop.. Eventually you will loose at everyshop as they soon learn you aren't worth the bother.
It because of customers like you I have had to put up a website to get the sale of scuba equipment at discount prices..I don't have to talk to you, I don't have to train you, and this way I can take the business away from my competetors. I now can spend the extra time really training my loyal customers.

Again I repeat if any of my staff send any customer to another shop then they are unethical and they wil be fired on the Spot!

I don't want to piss you off but I am pissed of by this stupid attitude..

Capt. Dave,
I read this post a few times, and at the risk of seeming dense, I have not the slightest idea of what you are talking about! Are you saying that I should be loyal to a dive shop no matter what their prices because they trained me? You don't want me in your store, but you'll fire your help if they send me elsewhere? What did I say to make you believe I am ANY kind of customer? You're rambling, dude.
On the "to-be-fair" side, your marketing ideas are sound, but not new as already pointed out. The amount of energy and personality needed to be successful at what you purport to do is beyond what most folks have, or can muster. You my friend, are a HARD salesman, and that doesn't work as well as it used to, what with tons of info on the internet.
As far as direct marketing goes, my understanding is that a 1-2% reply rate is good. You have to cover a lot of ground with direct marketing to get any meaningful results, and that's expensive.
As I've said, I've seen this stuff before. Yeah, there's no doubt someong really doing it, maybe you. Why don't you post a copy of last years' W2 for us? Love to see it. Well, now I'M rambling!
Neil

[captdave]

:(

For some reason the forum posted my reply before the response so i am re-positing to keep the thread intact.
You guys just love to crack me up. HA HA HA HA

My facts are true although delivered rather courseley to get a reaction. Here is the bottom line.

All scuba shops rate there customers. And of course the customer is always greeted with warm open arms and asked to come dive with us. "You will hear the term" We would love to have you come dive with us" While in the mind they are saying that so and so took his open water lessons from us and bought all of his gear from the shop down the street and the internet. I have indeed thrown people out of my shop.. I have a reputation...

That is how I treat my customers with niceness and bull****,most of the time. But the fact that still remains is the same. that customer will never get any type of consideration and extra help in their development. We will take their money but we will not consider them a good customer.

On the otherhand a customer who bought all his gear and takes all his training will get the extra mile in service and concern.. Better training, better position on the dive boat. the best of the hotel rooms. friendship, concern,etc. When we have a close out they get called and e mailed way before the rest of the slobs do....They have paid us for it. Guys like you just don't get it and never will.

This goes back a couple of generations that you tech heads don't remember.. Your parents and their parents used to shop at the same butcher shop and the same gas staion even when they could get the meat and gas cheaper at the bigger stores. Why do you think they did it. Simple they got something more from the shop that guys like you don't want to understand because you have grown up in the walmart generation....You are price motivated and thats ok.
The people in my business plan are also price motivated but they will pay more for the services because they perceive more.

All of the Tech companies are on their ass because they have confused customer loyalty vs customer service vs price. It cost money to provide customer service..Cheap ain't gonna get it...

It really is guys like you that have hurt the scuba industry but it has cost you and you will never know it because that LDS you screwed over with still great you with smiles.

In this forum I can tell you like it is cause you aren't my customer and I never expect you to be. Maybe I will get the idea to some others out there that there is usually a reason for a higher price other than trying to rip you off....

In regards to taxes and my income forget it. That it and will always remain a private matter between me and the IRS>

[bash]

Originally posted by joewr
.... (Of course, you will have to dream up a new word for the nerdy guys. I have a suggestion: sucker)

Yep. That's just about how I feel in my relationship with my LDS: like a sucker.

I'd spent about AUD$12K at my LDS on gear and beginner courses, and had signed up for a must have series of courses (I was loyal to my LDS), before I'd gained enough experience in the diver-world to realise I'd been lead along by the nose.

(You may notice that my profile says I'm advanced trained with less than 50 dives: in fact, I'm nearly a master scuba diver... with less than 50 dives - I have been a sucker)

Originally posted by captdave
.....Your target market.
Teach only to people who have access to money. .....
The right client is a special type of individual. They are not leaders, they are not physically gifted and they are not independent thinkers.
They are not rugged adventurers, nor are they millionaires or celebrities....

Yep: that's what I think my LDS thinks of me. So much for loyalty to the customer, eh Captain?

Still, as I said before: a dive operator has the right to make a buck and I have the right to take my business elsewhere.... that's capitalism for you.

I'm not one to 'bite my nose off to spite my face': if my LDS can offer something worthwhile to me, I'll take up the offer, but not until I've checked it against other options.....I'd be a real sucker if I didn't learn from my past experience with my 'commerce-comes-first' dive shop operator.

:)Captain: I can see that what you are proposing is clever and I genuinely think, 'good on you' for putting in the energy to set up the market, and for taking the risk. You have a right to reap the benefits of your work.

Are you aware that the language you use to describe your target market implies that you don't really respect them? It hit a nerve with me 'cos I felt 'used' by my shop and I felt they didn't respect my intelligence. As a result, they don't get my loyal return business without being compared with other market options first.

If I was considering an investment in your company, I would want more information about how you intend to keep customer loyalty. Return business is an area of your strategy that appears unconvincing.

-bash

[captdave]

:confused:
I really can't figure out why you don't get the reason for firing an employee who sends a customer to a competetor.

DO you really think that if a guy worked in a FORD dealership and he sends a customer to a Chevy Dealership he would keep his job for very long..

DO you think there is something different about the business of scuba that this type of behavior would be acceptable.....

Again I state it is totally unethical for an employee to send a customer to a competetor and that employee should be terminated immediately...

Unless of course you really believe in the miracle on 34th street.....Ain't

[captdave]

Hey Bash,

You could not be more than wrong. I love my customers and I have the upmost respect for them.

The description in the plan is from a marketing point of view and not from a personal point of view..

I am confused about what your LDS did to you and why they have driven you away. I know some times this happens but maby they perceived you were not worth the trouble or perhaps they are real jerks anyway.. What was the details..

They is a great deal of more information yet to be delevered regarding the plan that may answer some of your questions but I certaintly do not want the perception that we do not respect our customers at all...

[scuba_adventurer]

First of all, you have to be a pretty bad shop to have a guy working for you who feels the competitor down the road has a better product. There are instances when a customer wants to purchase something somewhere else, but it is stupid for an dive shop employee to make that decision for them.

Captain Dave,

I have read your comments with great interest, and while I am not sure how much you are BSing, you have good ideas. What you do is foster that continuity that makes a local dive shop great, in my opinion. LeisurePro can not give advice, fringe benefits, or act like they give a damn if someone is having a problem with a skill. Many people who don't have a dive shop search online, and naturally form message boards to express their questions (I realize that these people are not the only ones who use this board), so they will have trouble seeing the logic of your ideas. Your package is not the trip for the LeisurePro shopper. Your package is however ideal for many of todays "I am too busy to have fun" kind of people. They just want to take a vacation and be done with it. No work in advance, or no follow up. It is the success of Adventure Travel summed up.

I think you have some great ideas, but I don't understand how you find time to run a dive shop and go our and proactively drum up al of this business. What you suggest is time consuming, as is running a dive shop. Which operation takes a back seat to the other?

[Belushi]

Capt Dave, most of your ideas have sound financial sense, but your idea that to sack your staff because he send a customer to another dive shop is ludicrous!

If I come into your dive shop and want a Poseidon Cyklon 5000 because I am going to dive Scapa Flow in Scotland in three days, and you do not stock it, and you cannot get it for me in two days, what am I supposed to do? Not go to Scapa Flow? I want this regulator because it is a top quality regulator.

You do not stock one, you cannot get one for me, but Dodgy Joe's dive centre down the road sells them and your salesman knows this. He tells me that Joe's does sell them and then I go there. You then sack your salesman. The reason I went to your dive shop in the first place is because I trusted the word of the professionals in it, which generally means I will be back to purchase other stuff.

So, not only do you lose a good salesman, but you lose my custom. But then you do not want my custom anyway because I am a cheap and nasty customer who will not go on your $3000 a week trips. It sounds vaguely lose-lose to me.

:boom:

[captdave]

Belusi,

First of all I think the Poseidon is one of the best regulators made. I do not carry it any more nor recommend it to any of my regular customers because parts are very difficult to come by and it requires a very special technician to work on it. This is not a good Idea to purchase here in the U.S. I would have expected one of my Salesmen to deliver you this message and suggest a top of the line regulator that has parts available and the service technicians in our shop can handle any problem you might have.

I Think your trip to Scotland sounds nice and if you still want to Dive a Poseidon I suggest you purchase it overseas as it is cheaper than paying duty to get it here but don’t bring it to us to service and as you will find there are very few shops that really know how to deal with the service problems…Most end up sending the entire unit into the Distributors and your unit is down for weeks and In one case I sent one in it took two months.

There are no dealers in our town that carry the Poseidon any more..

[neil]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by captdave
[B]Belusi,
I would have expected one of my Salesmen to deliver you this message and suggest a top of the line regulator that has parts available and the service technicians in our shop can handle any problem you might have.

Capt. Dave
So what happens when the potential customer says, "thanks, but I really only want to purchase the Poseiden regulator, no matter what the drawbacks", and your employee, after giving his best pitch tells him, albeit reluctantly, where to get one? Do you still fire him?
In my humble but experienced opinion, everybody that walks OUT your door should be happy for some reason: either happy with a purchase, or with good info. You failed, what a shame. Do you want to discuss loyalty some more?
Secondly, your indignation at being asked to prove that you make the kind of money you say you do speaks volumes. To me at least.

Neil

[captdave]

Belushi,

I think one thing you may be forgetting that most of my customers come to us as their scuba instructors and ask for good advise. They trust our honest advice. I have never had a situation like you describe. Should this happen I would again tell them that their decision in my opinion is not a sound one but if that is their choice I will respect it and leave them with a smile. A stranger off the street would get the same information but We would supect he is out shopping his dive shop and note it for future reference.

I again repeat that it is neither my place nor any of my sales people’s place to offer any information regarding any of our competitors. This is not good business and is not done anywhere that I know of. That is what the yellow pages are for. We are not the Telephone Company!

Again my friend my tax information is none of your business...Or should I doctor something up to make you feel good like most of the real crooks do!

I could possible understand this if I was asking someone for money but I am not asking for a thing. What I offer is free to anybody who wants to learn...

[rstone]

From a business point of view I can understand a company to not want its employees to send customers to its competitors. I think more often then not you will find most companys frown on this, however they cant watch every employee 24/7. As someone who works in a dive shop I usally dont have a problem with not being able to get something since we have 9 stores and usally 1 of them have it and I can get it quickly. However if someone comes in the store looking for something we "our stores" dont carry like Sherwood.. i have no problem referring him to a shop down the street if i think he has made up his mind, however that doesnt mean i wont try to sell him one of ours first :)

[CAMPER]

This is my first post to this board. I was really overjoyed to see this thread.

I am one of those old divers who am taking up the sport again after many years absence. I have recently completed cert classes with my teen age boys. My experience with instructors/classes was a great deal less then satisfactory. The quality of the instruction was great the wow factor stuff was not to be found.

I am a small business owner that was looking for a way to do some quality things with my boys. Diving has filed the bill but it has been a struggle from poor rental equipment, no upgrade available, to large classes, to hurried teachers, etc.

Capt. Dave may be over my budget but I would really have prefered an upgraded class routine which I would have been happy to pay for. I also considered certifying in a foreign location but was nervous about the quality of instruction available and not knowing for sure ahead of time who was giving it.

I hope some of you take this stuff to heart I believe the industry needs it.

Thanks,
Camper

[joewr]

Welcome to the Board! Seems like you jumped into the middle of an "interesting' thread...

Well, if you want to discuss any aspect of scuba, this is the place to be! Most of our threads are a little less controversial than this one and we hope you will join us. As I am wont to say: if you have questions, we have answers; if you have answers, we have questions.

And if you would like a recommendation for a scuba class/teacher, I have a first rate one for you. And if you really want a "foriegn" locale, how about the US Virgin Islands? A very pleasant tropical paradise where you can get first class instruction for PADI certification; it will take about a week.

Try this link and ask if Frank Vince is available:

http:www.sawyerdive.vi/classes.html

Joewr

[captdave]

:mean:
Enough of the kibitzing. It’s time to move ahead. Since there seems to be no real concrete additions to making money as a scuba instructor here goes!

This is going to really get me some flack and e mail but here goes.

New scuba divers are like baby ducks. They imprint on the Instructor. In the business of teaching scuba we say “Monkey see and Monkey do” This is how we teach by perfection of the skills with perfect demonstrations (under perfect conditions). The new divers imprint the skills and there FIRST scuba Instructor!
This is guy who held their hand. Got them through the skills, perhaps even the instructor who they perceived even saved their lives.

Once imprinted it is irreversible.
If you are trying to attract students to your advanced courses and your specialties and they were certified else where forget it it will not work. It’s too late! They will not have the same affinity for you as your original students. The only exception to this is someone who is already certified enters our seminar and re-certifies.
So don’t waist your time on the rest they are already ruined. You of course can let them enroll but I don’t advise it as they can pollute the minds of your students so if you do, you have to keep an eye on them. I have seen some certified divers who cannot even clear their masks or equalize their ears.

Now we do a little cheating. We arrange it so the student always wins! We do this by boosting their ego, making sure they have success early and often. We set up the training so they start having fun immediately. Because that is what we are selling fun and safe adventure. We use everything to our advantage to make this happen. Warm water, Clear water, low student to instructor ratio, the best equipment available, etc. etc.

A scuba course needs to be easy and the student must be spoiled. For those of you who think this is wrong think about this. Who are you trying to impress with the perfect skill prevention your own ego enhancement or the student? Making an entry-level scuba course tough is great for the military but not here. If you do the skills under adverse condition you only impress the student how good you are. You aren’t teaching them squat only stroking your own ego.

If you have selected the correct clients you will find most of them expect to and need to be led. You must know this, as the majority of your clients must be the joiners. Every once in a while an independent thinker gets in the group. Don’t allow this to be a distraction. Go with the flow but keep an eye on them and if they begin to be a disruption quietly ask them to leave and give them their money back on the spot. I have not had to do this too often but I have literally thrown them out of the pool and written them a check on the spot. I was a hero to the rest of the class. Of course the best way is to structure the situation so they make the decision you want them to make. This is the diplomatic may.
Do not work with Jerks get rid of them as quickly as possible!

This is important so don’t forget it. The sooner your students start having fun is directly proportional to your success as a scuba instructor is.

When people are having fun they are motivated and a physical average person can do wonders on scuba. So rig the course so they have fun right away. On the first day they must have fun. You all know about first impressions well scuba is no different. This can make the difference of success or failure of your student’s scuba course and your career. The student in the clear warm beautiful water who sees fish and feels safe and doesn’t choke will have a very different impression than the wetsuits clad, who waddles into a frigid rock quarry hoping to see some miner’s tools?
Schedule your course for 5-7 days of instruction. This leaves plenty of time for your slow learners. Only use full-fledged instructors as your assistants. Like I said before dive masters are wise fools. I can’t tell you how many times a wanna be divemaster yells at one of my student to put his snorkel in his mouth. Most of them have not been trained properly unless of course I brought them up through my system. They come in the shop all the time wanting a job. Actually what most of them want is a free scuba ride. I have had nothing but trouble with them from drinking to smoking pot to chasing the women students. I had one of them I showed the NOAA Manuel to who retorted Hey they stole this stuff from PADI. Wow what an idiot. Save your self-the trouble and train your own staff to Instructor level before you let them speak to a student. While Dive masters are in training they are not by standards to teach anything to a student and by my standards they keep there damn mouth shut. If they get in the way I get them out as soon as possible.

Should I go on…?

[Zagnut]

Baby Ducks? People certified elsewhere will pollute the minds of your other students? It sounds like you've got everybody all figured out. You must be a SCUBA Demigod in the eyes of your ever so grateful and loyal students...
You give yourself way too much credit and not near enough to others. Just one question.. why would a full fledged instructor work as your assistant when he or she could make $100,000 a year teaching in paradise?

[ScubaBaby]

Originally posted by captdave
Like I said before dive masters are wise fools. I can’t tell you how many times a wanna be divemaster yells at one of my student to put his snorkel in his mouth. Most of them have not been trained properly unless of course I brought them up through my system. They come in the shop all the time wanting a job. Actually what most of them want is a free scuba ride. I have had nothing but trouble with them from drinking to smoking pot to chasing the women students.

Captdave....
I agree completely with the fact that you have to start having fun in a diving course, if it doesnt start fun, people loose motivation very quickly and no longer are interested in completing the course successfully.

However, I did not catch on previously to you mentioning not using Divemasters. I think you have obviously had a few bad Divemasters, but surely you can't rule them all out. After all, the point in having divemasters is to assist the instructor where possible.

And one thing I'd like to point out, not all Divemasters are male...you can get female divemaster who might want to chase after the men students!!!!


Originally posted by captdave
Once imprinted it is irreversible

I also would have to disagree with what you have said above for several reasons.

I am currently learning to drive, my first instructor was terrible...taught me to hold the clutch whenever braking etc, my new instructor is teaching me not to do this...yes its hard for me to get out of the habit, but I'm getting there.

If "quality" instructors refuse to train students who have previously been with another instructor who may have taught them different with minor errors etc, how will that student ever learn whats right?

[SubMariner]

As I said in a previous post, captdave, you might get more positive responses if you softened your approach. The tone I get from your msgs is: "I am the greatest and the rest of the dive world knows nothing".

And you wonder why people react defensively?

It is your contention that you have a successful scuba business model. While that may be true, your condescending attitude when addressing legitimate queries leads me to question your motives and your sincerity.

In addition, I find some of your remarks about customers, other dive operations, and dive leaders (like divemasters) to be less than professional.

Save your self-the trouble and train your own staff to Instructor level before you let them speak to a student. While Dive masters are in training they are not by standards to teach anything to a student and by my standards they keep there damn mouth shut. If they get in the way I get them out as soon as possible.

Your profile asserts that you are a PADI Master Instructor. I wonder how they would react to the aforementioned remark?

~SubMariner~

[WetDane]

Hey Abby,

woudl you tell me what class I will have female DM chasing me? might just be worth a trip across the pond...
;)

Big T

[captdave]

:)
OK!
Some Really good remarks and questions.
First of all I learned what I am telling you the hard way. I have made every possible mistake you can imagine in this business. The problem is most scuba instructors are really poor businessmen. They operate on an emotion level and not from the point of view of business.

In regards to Instructors; there is a Mexican proverb that I learned a bit too late. It translates: If you lay down with eagles they will peck your eyes out. This is really the case. I have created more competitors than I can stand. My town is full of dive shop owners that were once my students. Not all but most. I learned to late how to be selective in choosing assistants and then how to keep them loyal. In an earlier post someone mention that that they had to sign a non –compete contract. This is very good. SSI has gone one step further. All SSI Instructors can only work in an authorized SSI Dive Shop. They cannot order any teaching materials on their own. More and More the industry is coming to this although I dought very much that PADI would even consider anything like this. I however insist on a non-compete contract when any of my students wants to start Dive Master training. I also only select those individuals who are not too much of an independent thinking but who want to help out. If I get the slightest feeling or notion of them planning trips outside of our system or training friends outside of our system. They are History…and I do not hesitate to file a lawsuit to stop them. At least for a short time. A non-compete contract is only good for maybe two to three years. You cannot stop someone from making a living forever. That is enough time usually for them to move on to something else. I have had them come back to me years later saying they really missed our adventures and wish they had not of gone on the path they did. They are still out, Forever. I don’t even speak to them nor recognize them in a crowd.

I am sorry if I offend some of you out there but This is the only way I have of telling you what I consider the Hard truth and that is to not mince words too much. I will continue to try and keep it toned down a little.

Never Never Never Never Never allow yourself to be alone with a female student above water. My Course Director who is now deceased gave me this information and I didn’t really think this was a big deal. Well I can tell you it is a big deal. I have been accused of sexual harassment when I didn’t. I once was accused of hitting on a customer’s wife when I didn’t and later learned that she was angry because I didn’t hit on her.

This is a professional business and you must refrain from any kind of contact in this manner. Abby talks about lady divemaster hitting on the men. I think she was kidding but again this is a no no. You loose complete control at that point. Students will always try to drag you down to their level. You must stay above them at all times. This sometimes comes across as arrogant. It is only a defense mechanism.

We have a joke we pass around; never sleep with a student until the last night! This way they go home the next day. They are certified and it does not screw up your class.

I cannot speak to what PADI would say about my comments about my Dive Masters. The standards are quite specific. A dive Master may not deliver new information to any student. This means keep your damn mouth shut in my book. They can however elaborate something an Instructor has already taught. I do not allow this with my Dive Masters. They are there to observe and learn. After they complete this year of training they are put in the Assistant Instructor program for two years and then maybe they will become an Instructor. I currently have two assistants that I work with who are more than happy to travel to exotic places and enjoy our adventures while they are learning. IF you’re a pro, you’re a pro. Admiral Nemitz once said. When in command: COMMAND.

[ScubaBaby]

Wetdane....
Well I don't know many divemasters round near me - but I'll look some up for you lol ! Shame I havent qualified yet really ! :jester:

[joewr]

CaptDave,

Perhaps a more useful Mexican proverb is:

"Quien se duerme con perros se levanta con pulgas."

Which liberally translates to:

"He who sleeps with dogs wakes up with fleas."

And, I suppose we ought to do the "eagle" one in Spanish, too. However, I have not actually heard that one:

"Quien se duerme con aguilas se levanta sin ojos."


Joewr...saying, "Vamos a bucear, amigos!" (Let's go diving, friends!)

[captdave]

To scuba baby and jower.
I didn't mean to forget you on my last post scuba baby but I think you would be a great candidate for my scuba re-certify seminar. I am very sorry your first instructor was so bad. This is what I have been talking about. I am glad we didn't loose you to the sport of diving. I really recommend re-certifying and taking your advanced at the same time. This will get you past that sour experience.
To Joewr. Thanks for the translations. and Really I am (what one of my 12 stepped dive masters use to say) JONESING for a dive trip.

[WetDane]

Scuba Baby,
when you qualify I will get on that plane with a kit in my bag so fast the security guys heads will spin... :tease:

I guess I should not tell you this - but I have a plan to own (not operate - just own) a scuba resort in say the Channel islands in Honduras - my plan is to over charge CaptDave for his nice classes so all I need is a mate to drive MY dive boat...

Big T

[SubMariner]

I cannot speak to what PADI would say about my comments about my Dive Masters. The standards are quite specific. A dive Master may not deliver new information to any student. This means keep your damn mouth shut in my book. They can however elaborate something an Instructor has already taught. I do not allow this with my Dive Masters. They are there to observe and learn. After they complete this year of training they are put in the Assistant Instructor prog