Halcyon sueing OxyCheq, US Divers and others?

[jeggles]

I just read a post on a website that the owner of Halcyon has sued OxyCheq, US Divers and other companies for patent violations (weight integrated pockets?), but if I'm reading between the lines right, that Halcyon has settled with other companies for money, but wants some companies' entire stock of wings and oxygen analyzers! It sounds like Halcyon is trying to force it's competitors out of business by sueing them?

That just sounds un-American to me!!! :frown2:

[iflyprops]

Well...they are a British company...

[jplacson]

Huh?!?!? Aren't they based in Florida?

[evad]

I just read a post on a website that the owner of Halcyon has sued OxyCheq, US Divers and other companies for patent violations (weight integrated pockets?), but if I'm reading between the lines right, that Halcyon has settled with other companies for money, but wants some companies' entire stock of wings and oxygen analyzers! It sounds like Halcyon is trying to force it's competitors out of business by sueing them?

That just sounds un-American to me!!! :frown2:


Go America. Yay.

[Wendy]

Well...they are a British company...

Who is a British Company?

[scubasean]

I just read a post on a website that the owner of Halcyon has sued OxyCheq, US Divers and other companies for patent violations (weight integrated pockets?), but if I'm reading between the lines right, that Halcyon has settled with other companies for money, but wants some companies' entire stock of wings and oxygen analyzers! It sounds like Halcyon is trying to force it's competitors out of business by sueing them?

That just sounds un-American to me!!! :frown2:

You might want to get confirmation of all of this before passing it on....Settling for money is certainly not out of the realm of possibility, but getting the inventory is unusual. Getting the inventory is tantamount to getting an injunction against future sale which is something I would think folks would fight in court before just giving up....and I see no evidence that Halcyon is trying to put the manufacturers out of business...Rather, they might just want the licensing revenue.

(I'm not saying that Halcyon isn't doing it, I'm just saying I haven't seen any evidence of it...not that I've looked high and low for it.) And, the patents cited elsewhere aren't related to oxygen analyzers, so far as I know...So I see no reason the analyzers would be involved in any way...Anyone know?

And, are you indicating that litigation is unAmerican? Where have you been? heh

Actually, patent lawsuits are filed every day, and often involve amounts of money into the millions...and are very costly to wage, as well as to fight.

:banana:

[Northeastwrecks]

Halcyon is not a named plaintiff in the lawsuit. The corporate plaintiff is an entity called Carleigh Rae.

Let's see. First post is on this issue? Why do I think that something is a little off here.

[iflyprops]

oops, nevermind. For some reason I thought Halcyon was British, they are in fact based out of High Springs, FL (according to the contact info on their website).

Sorry about that! :wink:

[5615mike]

yea..........oops

[MonkSeal]

That just sounds un-American to me!!! :frown2:

No offence but it sounds just American to me. Or maybe it's the picture that we in Europe have about lawsuits in US.

[baenglish73]

No offence but it sounds just American to me. Or maybe it's the picture that we in Europe have about lawsuits in US.

That's funny because whenever I stereotype a country to a foreigner, then I'm uncultured or provincial. C'est la vie.

[OneBrightGator]

I have a scanned pdf copy of the complaint, but it's too big to upload, if somebody has a way to break it into to two pieces I'd be glad to pass it along.

PM me.

Ben

[mempilot]

No offence but it sounds just American to me. Or maybe it's the picture that we in Europe have about lawsuits in US.

The only picture I have of Europeans are the one's imprinted in my mind from meeting them on my travels. Some are good, some are bad, but mostly good. Monk, if you've been to America and spent a reasonably amount of time here, then feel free to judge. If not, don't rely on the press to give you an accurate portrayal of what Americans are like. Some are good, some are bad, but mostly good. :)

As for being a sue happy country, the US kicks out more patents than all other countries combined. There's bound to be copyright and patent infringment in a capitalistic society.

Who cares who is suing who, unless you own one of these tiny companies. Competition breeds superior products.

[Saturation]

OBG's copy of the lawsuit has a great deal of information and bottom line, it covers weight pockets and trim devices. The key is what the issued patents contain, and can be found from the US Patent server on details on:

#5,855,454: Water safety and survival system (January 5, 1999)

#6,530,725: Water Safety and Survival System (March 11, 2003)

#6,558,082: Combined ballast and signalling device for a personal flotation device (May 6, 2003)


________________________________

[Genesis]

Boycott time.....

[Boogie711]

Boycott who? Halcyon? USD? Do you even know what the lawsuit is about?

I'm no Halcyon devotee, but come on - spare me the rhetoric. That's a little fly off the handle-ish don't you think?

Whatever. I can foresee a 12 paragraph reply. Spare your fingertips - I won't read it.

[OneBrightGator]

Wanna know what it's about?

Halcyon (hidden behind a name-only corp.) claims a "buoyancy compensator with 'non-releasable' weight" is their idea when trim weights were around long before these patents were applied for, it's razor thin at best.

So far, they've served DiveRite, OMS, Cressi-Sub USA, Tabata USA (TUSA), Deep Outdoors, DiveTek, Hughco Sales, Custom Buoyancy and International Divers (IDI) and they served Sherwood, Abysmal and OxyCheq at DEMA, distasteful at best and probably a violation of DEMA policy.

Review the information for yourself, the links posted earlier in the thread are the patents listed in the suits.

A friend of mine that told me about this said this:
"Better gear is available from better people."

After throughly reviewing the material, I'm inclined to agree.

Ben

[Genesis]

The cute part of it is that some of the people they went after aren't even making the devices cited in the patents; that is pretty clearly harassment at best.

Like I said - its boycott time.

(I've known about this since it happened, and sold my Halcyon kit shortly after I heard about it. I won't have anything to do with those clowns, or anything that JJ has his fingers in - after this.)

[Warren_L]

Hmmmm ... it would seem he's more money driven than I originally gave him credit for.

[cornfed]

Boycott time.....
It took you fifteen posts to get this out! Damn, Karl... you're slipping! ;)

[cornfed]

distasteful at best and probably a violation of DEMA policy.

Why would it be violation of DEMA policy?

[Genesis]

CF, I was asked to keep this under my hat when I was told about it, and I did.

Since its now been brought out......

[mempilot]

I just put 2 Halcyon trim weight pockets on my OMS BP/Harness. Funny thing was, the only reason I bought theirs was that they didn't mangage to put a H logo on them. I didn't buy the OMS ones because I couldn't stand having any more red and yellow OMS badges on my gear.

Maybe the cash they get from the lawsuit will let them price their gear back down where it belongs. Right. Gotta pay for that DIR copyright somehow.

[cornfed]

CF, I was asked to keep this under my hat when I was told about it, and I did.

I'm just giving you crap... :54:

[OneBrightGator]

Why would it be violation of DEMA policy?

The bylaws of DEMA state:

"A Member may be suspended, based on the good faith determination by the Board, or a committee or person authorized by the Board to make such a determination, that the Member has failed in a material and serious degree to observe the Association's rules of conduct, or has engaged in conduct materially and seriously prejudicial to the purposes and interests of the Association. A person or entity whose Membership is suspended shall not be a Member during the period of suspension." (my emphasis)

Check the Mission Statement of DEMA (http://www.dema.org/displaycommon.cfm?an=1) specifically no. 2:

"2. To engage in marketing programs which promote the industry, create new customers, drive business into retail stores and resorts and promote diver retention."

Something tells me serving lawsuits at a "public" expo, in fact, probably the largest scuba-related expo each year is a violation of policy.

Ben

[MikeS]

No offence but it sounds just American to me. Or maybe it's the picture that we in Europe have about lawsuits in US.

You're right, they should follow the Croation model; kill as many divers wearing OMS gear as they can untill the UN Peace Keepers show up. No offense. :sappy:

[mempilot]

You're right, they should follow the Croation model; kill as many divers wearing OMS gear as they can untill the UN Peace Keepers show up. No offense. :sappy:

I'd better tape over my targets! OMS and Halcyon manage to put those damn logos everywhere so that they're viewable from every angle. The UN won't get there until the carnage is on the decline, so everyone for themselves!

BTW, although I've never landed in Croatia, I flew a plane over the area a few times. Just doing what Americans do best. :54:

[chrpai]

You're right, they should follow the Croation model; kill as many divers wearing OMS gear as they can untill the UN Peace Keepers show up. No offense. :sappy:

I seem to remember one time in Croatia where they almost did kill a diver. I'm not sure if he was wearing OMS gear or not though.

[Genesis]

Yeah, and if the dive industry as a whole wasn't more crooked than Tricky Dick JJ's crew would have been sent packing by DEMA the next morning.

They weren't and that says all I need to know about DEMA - which, by the way, sprung up after the SRA was sued out of existance (literally!) by the federal government (the FTC) over their attempt at blackballing a snorkel manufacturer who had the audacity to want to sell via mail order.

[LUBOLD8431]

Not to let JJ off the hook (because he is involved) but Robert Carmichael has to take some heat for this too (he owns part of Halcyon too, along with JJ).

Well, hopefully people will start seeing Halcyon as they truly are: Satan in a DIR rig.

[Genesis]

Oh I know.

The entire thing stinks to high hell. I've done some low-level digging around the corporate records and patent applications involved, and there's a spider-web (very intentionally-created) of entities in this thing.

Its too clever by half, actually. It doesn't really prevent anyone from figuring out who's connected to what, but what it DOES do is make getting recompense for harassment-by-lawsuit far more difficult.

IMHO there are good reasons to use this kind of multiple-entity thing (e.g. a dive boat owned by the same folks who own a dive SHOP) but this isn't one of them.

[FFMDiver]

I just bought a used halcyon plate & harness. Looks like I'll be "doing it right" by finishing it off with an Oxycheq wing...

[d33ps1x]

I see no link to documents, etc...

[caveseeker7]

Companies served:


So far, they've served DiveRite, OMS, Cressi-Sub USA, Tabata USA (TUSA), Deep Outdoors, DiveTek, Hughco Sales, Custom Buoyancy and International Divers (IDI) and they served Sherwood, Abysmal and OxyCheq at DEMA, distasteful at best and probably a violation of DEMA policy.


Products sold at EE:
Aqualung/Apeks/Suunto, Brownies Third Lung; DUI International, Halcyon, Mares, Scubapro/Uwatec

Products sold by Brownies Southport Divers:
Halcyon; DUI International, Mares, Scubapro/Uwatec

Guess they both realize empty store shelves aren't good and Halcyon/Brownies alone ain't gonna cut it.

[gj62]

I don't know Halcyon's size and while not a patent attorney, I've been involved in patent fights - here's my guess...

If it was a "clean win" - infringement without a doubt - it would be settled before now for license fees or a voluntary injunction.

Unfortunately, during the pending process (you've all seen "patent pending", right?) nobody from a competitor came forward to indicate why the patent shouldn't be granted. In point of law, that does not matter - if anyone can prove that the idea existed before the patent, the patent will be voided. However, that is not nearly as simple (read: cheap) as it sounds once the patent has been approved.

My guess is that this is a power play by a company that has had some success (and either money or deep pockets) that wants to try and shut the door on competitor(s).

At best, these things are normally handled out of the press, and even without a suit. At worst, it will only (a) make attorneys some $$$s and (b) lessen each company's commitment to their products. Why (b)? Would you keep investing in a product you could lose the rights to, or not have a clear advantage in?

I don't recommend doing anything drastic in the next few days, but if I were buying equipment (which, in fact, I am), I might wait a little while (which, in fact, I will) before buying from these companies (on either side of the suit). I get the idea none of them exactly have the resources for protracted legal battle. If so, they'll probably try to settle, which will cost the companies money (only the attorneys will win).

In a word, "Damn" (sorry for the language...)

[d33ps1x]

Is there any links to anything or is this yet another stop on the Cyberlaw Institute of North America lecture circuit.

[LadyHog283]

I can't say much about the others pockets, but Aqualung is owned by Air Liquide http://www.airliquide.com/ and I'll bet their pockets are a lot deeper than Halcyon's.

[Scubaroo]

Is there any links to anything or is this yet another stop on the Cyberlaw Institute of North America lecture circuit.Ben (OneBrightGator) has already said he has a PDF available that's too large to upload to ScubaBoard (and it probably shouldn't be uploaded here anyway), and that people can send him a PM to request it.

I'm keeping my nose out of this one as it's too close to home and the lawsuit is still pending.

[GDI]

Hey are they Doing it right?

[nyresq]

yes, I belive all the lawyers have a little blue "H" on their briefcases.... They must be DIR...

[DCDivenut]

Hey are they Doing it right?

Okay.. I have bene looking at getting into a BP/wings setup. I found a great shop in VA that carries Halcyon, OMS, Zeagle and more. They basically said they Zeagle BP is overpriced and not that great and the OMS/Abyss is designed more for NE wrecks than anything else.
So here's the rub, they were going to let me rent a Halcyon setup for a weeke in Cozumel and then if I decide to buy deduct the rental cost from the retails. Seems like a good deal but now I am having some second thoughts about Halcyon, well actually second thoughts are making a third trip...
The reason I like Halcyon is that Icould everythgin I wanted in one package. I honestly don't think I like the OMS stuff so I am kind of stuck...
If I were to put it togerther from bits and got a Fred T plate, where would I get the wing, harness, inflator from?

[jonnythan]

I sent Gator a request for the PDF, and if he sends it over I'll put it up on my webserver and give you guys a link.

[LUBOLD8431]

Have you looked at Oxycheq yet? Thats one stop shopping as well. www.oxycheq.com --> Angel in white...

[jonnythan]

Okay.. I have bene looking at getting into a BP/wings setup. I found a great shop in VA that carries Halcyon, OMS, Zeagle and more. They basically said they Zeagle BP is overpriced and not that great and the OMS/Abyss is designed more for NE wrecks than anything else.
So here's the rub, they were going to let me rent a Halcyon setup for a weeke in Cozumel and then if I decide to buy deduct the rental cost from the retails. Seems like a good deal but now I am having some second thoughts about Halcyon, well actually second thoughts are making a third trip...
The reason I like Halcyon is that Icould everythgin I wanted in one package. I honestly don't think I like the OMS stuff so I am kind of stuck...
If I were to put it togerther from bits and got a Fred T plate, where would I get the wing, harness, inflator from?

FredT will sell you the harness along with the plate, COVCI will sell you the Oxycheq wing (which comes with an inflator).

COVCI will also sell you a complete Oxycheq package for $35 less than you'll pay for a complete Halcyon setup.

[ElectricZombie]

Interesting. I think weight pockets and trim weights have been around long before Halcyon started making them.

However, Halcyon certainly does have a legitimate complaint against OMS. The new OMS wing looks like an exact copy of the Pioneer. I'm not familiar with OxyCheq products so, I don't know if they are really copying Halcycon gear or not. I have seen a few pictures of their wings online, and the single tank wings do look similiar to the Pioneer.

I dont' see any need to boycott Halcyon as we don't know enough details concerning the suit. For all we know, their claim may be justified.

Regardless, I'll keep buying their products until something better is made.

[Doc Intrepid]

I've found it to be true that there are generally two sides to every story.

Before leaping to conclusions, why don't we see what develops?

It may be that there is some validity to some of the claims.

Do any of you have any irrefutable evidence to the contrary?

[d33ps1x]

I've found it to be true that there are generally two sides to every story.

I find there are usually three sides to every story. Side A, Side B, and somewhere in between lies the truth.

[MonkSeal]

The only picture I have of Europeans are the one's imprinted in my mind from meeting them on my travels. Some are good, some are bad, but mostly good. Monk, if you've been to America and spent a reasonably amount of time here, then feel free to judge. If not, don't rely on the press to give you an accurate portrayal of what Americans are like. Some are good, some are bad, but mostly good. :)

As for being a sue happy country, the US kicks out more patents than all other countries combined. There's bound to be copyright and patent infringment in a capitalistic society.

Who cares who is suing who, unless you own one of these tiny companies. Competition breeds superior products.

Agree with you. I've been to States but I can't tell if I've spent enough time to catch everything. My point was (as I wrote) that I was probably a victim of prejudice about US as many Europeans.

[MonkSeal]

You're right, they should follow the Croation model; kill as many divers wearing OMS gear as they can untill the UN Peace Keepers show up. No offense. :sappy:

A glass of black humor is always welcomed. :coke:

[RobK]

<Snip>
As for being a sue happy country, the US kicks out more patents than all other countries combined. There's bound to be copyright and patent infringment in a capitalistic society.

<Snip>


*ahem* not true.

I think Japan is leading the field in patent applications ATM

See http://www.european-patent-office.org/tws/tsr_2001/ch3/3.2.php

Cheers,
Rob.

[cornfed]

I seem to remember one time in Croatia where they almost did kill a diver. I'm not sure if he was wearing OMS gear or not though.
"They"?

Who... the UN? LOL

[MikeS]

I just bought a used halcyon plate & harness. Looks like I'll be "doing it right" by finishing it off with an Oxycheq wing...

Wait, let me get this straight; rather than buying the best wing for your application, you’re going to buy something less because you read about a lawsuit(s) on the Internet? That sounds smart! Isn’t it customary to have the hanging after the trial?

[cornfed]

Isn’t it customary to have the hanging after the trial?
Legally, yes. However the court of public opinion has it's own rules...

[Warren_L]

Wait, let me get this straight; rather than buying the best wing for your application, you’re going to buy something less because you read about a lawsuit(s) on the Internet? That sounds smart! Isn’t it customary to have the hanging after the trial?

After doing research for the wing that I've recently ordered, the Oxycheq was the best for me. Forget Halcyon.....

[Scuba Cowboy]

Interesting. I think weight pockets and trim weights have been around long before Halcyon started making them.

However, Halcyon certainly does have a legitimate complaint against OMS. The new OMS wing looks like an exact copy of the Pioneer. I'm not familiar with OxyCheq products so, I don't know if they are really copying Halcycon gear or not. I have seen a few pictures of their wings online, and the single tank wings do look similiar to the Pioneer.

I dont' see any need to boycott Halcyon as we don't know enough details concerning the suit. For all we know, their claim may be justified.

Regardless, I'll keep buying their products until something better is made.

Something better IS made. IMO, OMS, Abyss, & Oxycheq make better products than Halcyon. The only wing failures I've heard about have been Halcyon wings. Its also been my experience that the company with the inferior product is the one who files suit. Looks to me like Halcyon is afraid of the competition, and they should be.

[OneBrightGator]

However, Halcyon certainly does have a legitimate complaint against OMS. The new OMS wing looks like an exact copy of the Pioneer. I'm not familiar with OxyCheq products so, I don't know if they are really copying Halcycon gear or not. I have seen a few pictures of their wings online, and the single tank wings do look similiar to the Pioneer.

The suits are not for wing design, just weight-integration and a surface survival system.

Ben

[OneBrightGator]

Wait, let me get this straight; rather than buying the best wing for your application, you’re going to buy something less because you read about a lawsuit(s) on the Internet? That sounds smart! Isn’t it customary to have the hanging after the trial?

Not so, better equipment is made by better people. Dive Rite, Oxycheq and Abyss to name a few make better wings cheaper.

Ben

[reubencahn]

Companies served:

Products sold at EE:
Aqualung/Apeks/Suunto, Brownies Third Lung; DUI International, Halcyon, Mares, Scubapro/Uwatec

Products sold by Brownies Southport Divers:
Halcyon; DUI International, Mares, Scubapro/Uwatec

Guess they both realize empty store shelves aren't good and Halcyon/Brownies alone ain't gonna cut it.

Brownies also carries Cressi-Sub.

[OneBrightGator]

Jonnythan has offered to host the complaint file for me, it should be up shortly, watch this thread for a link.

Ben

[MikeS]

After doing research for the wing that I've recently ordered, the Oxycheq was the best for me. Forget Halcyon.....

And your point would be?

Buying an Oxycheq wing based on research makes sense to me. Ruling out potential choices because you read about a lawsuit on the Internet makes no sense to me.

[CRDiver]

Especially when there's absolutely no proof that the lawsuit even exists....

[Warren_L]

And your point would be?

Buying an Oxycheq wing based on research makes sense to me. Ruling out potential choices because you read about a lawsuit on the Internet makes no sense to me.

I never ruled out Halcyon. I looked at OMS, Halcyon, Dive Rite and Oxycheq. I've never read anything about the lawsuit. I put my order in a couple of weeks ago on the Oxycheq before any of this even came out. Because I didn't choose the Halcyon doesn't mean I didn't consider it or rule it out from the beginning.

[sapphire]

Especially when there's absolutely no proof that the lawsuit even exists....

I have the document, if you PM me with your email address I can send it to you.

[MikeS]

I never ruled out Halcyon. I looked at OMS, Halcyon, Dive Rite and Oxycheq. I've never read anything about the lawsuit. I put my order in a couple of weeks ago on the Oxycheq before any of this even came out. Because I didn't choose the Halcyon doesn't mean I didn't consider it or rule it out from the beginning.

So what’s your point in the context of this thread about a lawsuit(s) originated by Halcyon?

[Warren_L]

Wait, let me get this straight; rather than buying the best wing for your application, you’re going to buy something less because you read about a lawsuit(s) on the Internet? That sounds smart! Isn’t it customary to have the hanging after the trial?

I guess my point is that Halcyon isn't necessarily the "best" as it depends on a great degree on individual preferences and requirements as far as application is concerned. I don't think these decisions are necessarily swayed either way by reading about any lawsuits, at least for me it isn't.

[Boogie711]

Let me just say this once, and for the record. I'm not DIR, and I have never purchased anything from Halcyon. However:

Business is business. Patents are filed, prices are determined, lawsuits are filed and threatening letters are sent each and every day. It's called business. As a business owner, I've considered filing suit against former clients over financial issues - does that make me mean and evil? Heck, I hope not.

I will make my purchasing decisions, now, and in the future, on the best gear available at the best price. The only other factors I'm willing to consider are all entirely dive related. I don't support OMS, for example, because they manufacture a 100 pound wing, and that doesn't fill me with confidence over the rest of their lineup (although their BP's are very nice.)

To boycott a company over a legal issue is tantamount to not purchasing Abyss gear because they are headquartered in Arizona. Obviously, Arizona is landlocked, so Abyss must have no clue what their doing, huh? Obviously not! Such an argument lacks logic.

So does boycotting a company over a legal issue - ESPECIALLY in the United States where with an independant judicial system, these things have a way of working themselves out. Either Halcyon wins and gets money because they deserve it, or they lose because they don't deserve to win. And I won't accept the argument of expensive lawyers beating up on expensive lawyers here - I KNOW Air Liquide could run circles around Halcyon's legal team based on legal funding alone.

Ultimately, you can always choose to dive with everything from a pink snorkel and Air2's to a fully DIR compliant rig - I don't care. But to not use Halcyon products simply because of a business/legal issue is just ludicrous. It reeks of knee-jerk reactionism, and I think most of you have more common sense than that.

[mempilot]

*ahem* not true.

I think Japan is leading the field in patent applications ATM

See http://www.european-patent-office.org/tws/tsr_2001/ch3/3.2.php

Cheers,
Rob.

Cool graph. My graph must have been from the 'Industrial Era'! LOL

They must have a lot of patents on the electronics industry. I actually looked up mechanical design patents. Sorry I didn't clarify.

[Boogie711]

Oh - and by the way - other companies that have sued their competitors:

Coca-Cola/ Pepsi/RC
GM/Ford/Chrysler/Honda/Toyota/Mitsubishi/Nissan/Subaru/BMW/Volkswagen
Microsoft/Apple/Sun/IBM/Dell/Palm
Nike/Adidas/Reebok/Brooks/Puma
McDonalds/Burger King/Wendy's/White Castle/Subway
JVC/Sony/RCA/Philips/Magnasonic/
NASCAR/FIA/MLB/NFL/NHL/NBA

Need I go on???

[rcrs007]

Boogie, thanks for the smack in the face, I'll wake up now and look at this from a different point of view.

One question though, have there been any other big lawsuits between scuba gear makers before? Maybe people have a bad feeling towards Halcyon because they took the diving industry into the "perpetual-legal-mumbo-jumbo-pit-of-doom". Suits may be the norm of other industrys, but if it wasn't the norm in the diving industry then I guess I could understand why there would be displeasure.

Ryan

[weekender]

You're right, they should follow the Croation model; kill as many divers wearing OMS gear as they can untill the UN Peace Keepers show up. No offense. :sappy:

I know your kidding but it would be funnier if you actually pick on an enemy of the USA. We bombed the Serbs and Montegnegro as I remember. Croatia is on good diplomatic relations with the US. Actually its a great place to go dive. I went a few years ago and loved it. It is a quiet friendly country with a favorable exchange rate. They also are very friendly to Americans because we attacked their enemy and as I understand aided in their independence. I could look up the dive operator I used if anyone is interested, she was Croatian American and very nice. And no, I don't work for the Croatian Tourist Board, just a fan of good diving and historical accuracy.

[hvulin]

BTW, although I've never landed in Croatia, I flew a plane over the area a few times. Just doing what Americans do best. :54:

come in late, and leave too soon?

sorry, just another black humor representation... :-)

I don't think anyone should be boycotted... simply buy it if you like, and don't if you don't like it... let the courts do the rest... (regardless of the fact that suing anyone you can IS sick)

[mempilot]

We bombed the Serbs and Montegnegro as I remember. Croatia is on good diplomatic relations with the US.

If you go back and read the gest at Americans, you'll understand he was poking fun since we did step in to help them. It's like, we need help, but then when it's all over - back to despising the American way.

Kind of like the French times deux.

It's all kind of humerous. The Iraqi's a few generations from now will despise American's again too. Even though we are eradicating their nemesis now, they will forget. It's the easy thing to do.

Funny, how there's lot's of Croats in Wisconsin and other states. They have a very different opinion of Americans than those looking at us from across the pond.

Some of us American's risk our lives to defend other's freedoms. There's nothing wrong with a little gest when it's not always appreciated by the minority.

This is off topic. Sorry.

[mempilot]

come in late, and leave too soon?

sorry, just another black humor representation... :-)


Came in when asked, left when the mission was accomplished. Things better today than before I showed up?

I know you're just kidding! Me too. I'd like to get back and try some diving, but I'll have to land this time. I'm not good at leaving airplanes in flight, especially in full scuba!

[OneBrightGator]

Oh - and by the way - other companies that have sued their competitors:

Coca-Cola/ Pepsi/RC
GM/Ford/Chrysler/Honda/Toyota/Mitsubishi/Nissan/Subaru/BMW/Volkswagen
Microsoft/Apple/Sun/IBM/Dell/Palm
Nike/Adidas/Reebok/Brooks/Puma
McDonalds/Burger King/Wendy's/White Castle/Subway
JVC/Sony/RCA/Philips/Magnasonic/
NASCAR/FIA/MLB/NFL/NHL/NBA

Need I go on???

You would have a point if this wasn't a illegitimate lawsuit. The suit is over trim weights for god sake, I don't know which patent covers it specifically, but the earliest one was in 1999, trim weights were around long before that.

It's not the action of the suit that bothers me, it's the fact that they are trying to subvert their competition with baseless lawsuits.

Ben

[rcrs007]

This is off topic. Sorry.

Off topic yes.

Little jokes here and there are fun, also you can't and shouldn't censor yourself to display no pride in your country. But come on, unless you want to create conflict/provoke, don't post messages like that.

Ryan

[scubasean]

One question though, have there been any other big lawsuits between scuba gear makers before?



I'm not sure what you mean by "big"...But I think this qualifies....

There are at least two patent lawsuits pending right now in the dive industry involving computer manufacturers. (Suunto, Johnson Outdoors...)

So, the dive industry is like many others, and not devoid of lawsuits like the public may think...Often, it is just that we don't know they exist, but they do.

[rcrs007]

I'm not sure what you mean by "big"...But I think this qualifies....

There are at least two patent lawsuits pending right now in the dive industry involving computer manufacturers. (Suunto, Johnson Outdoors...)

So, the dive industry is like many others, and not devoid of lawsuits like the public may think...Often, it is just that we don't know they exist, but they do.

Alright, thanks for confirming. Guess that the debate has 2 sides then:

1. People are neutral to H because they believe that until the lawsuit is solved they have no right to judge/they know that sueing is an industry norm

2. People dislike H because they know enough to (in their mind) believe that it's a lawsuit that has no basis and is a dishonerable business tactic

Hmm, now I don't even know which side I'm on ?
Meh, I'll keep the H gear I bought recently and wait for more info before I do anything drastic with my first bp/wing.

Are there any other information sources, other than SB, TDS and that PDF file Gator has ?

Ryan

[ElectricZombie]

Something better IS made. IMO, OMS, Abyss, & Oxycheq make better products than Halcyon. The only wing failures I've heard about have been Halcyon wings. Its also been my experience that the company with the inferior product is the one who files suit. Looks to me like Halcyon is afraid of the competition, and they should be.

OMS should not even be in the same sentence as Halcyon. OMS products are a joke, plain and simple. Funny, I have two Halcyon wings and so does my usual buddy...zero problems between us. I don't know about Abyss wings, but based on what I have seen online, I don't want an Oxycheq either.

[scubasean]

Alright, thanks for confirming. Guess that the debate has 2 sides then:

1. People are neutral to H because they believe that until the lawsuit is solved they have no right to judge/they know that sueing is an industry norm

2. People dislike H because they know enough to (in their mind) believe that it's a lawsuit that has no basis and is a dishonerable business tactic

Ryan


A third possibility (and there are probably fifth, sixth and seventh ...) is that some folks don't form an opinion of either way as to the companies products regardless of the state of any lawsuit involving patents.

One could say on one side that a company is protecting its intellectual property...On the other side, the big mean company is suing on something that may have existed many years ago...(By the way, have the folks that believe this actually looked at the claims of the patents? I have not...) Either way, it won't likely change the goods that they produce...

I have no connection good or bad with Halcyon, and don't have a stake in whether they win or lose.

I seem to recall that Suunto is being sued for patent infringement, and nobody seems to care...Why is the Halcyon suit so popular?



Are there any other information sources, other than SB, TDS and that PDF file Gator has ?

Certainly...What info are you looking for?

[mempilot]

Hmm, now I don't even know which side I'm on ?
Meh, I'll keep the H gear I bought recently and wait for more info before I do anything drastic with my first bp/wing.

Ryan,

Why would you do anything drastic with your bp/wing regardless of the outcome of this lawsuit? You have the equip, whether you like the company or not - it is still good equip.

[OneBrightGator]

OMS should not even be in the same sentence as Halcyon. OMS products are a joke, plain and simple. Funny, I have two Halcyon wings and so does my usual buddy...zero problems between us. I don't know about Abyss wings, but based on what I have seen online, I don't want an Oxycheq either.

Hmmm... is that Grape or Strawberry I smell??? :rolleyes:

Ben

[mempilot]

OMS should not even be in the same sentence as Halcyon. OMS products are a joke, plain and simple.

Really scientific Zombie. Put a OMS bp/harness next to a Halcyon. There is absolutely no difference. Put their wings next to each other, there is absolutely no difference. If there is a decernable difference, it is defineatly not big enough to warrant your comment. Sounds like the old Ford vs. Chevy debate.

[MikeS]

I know your kidding but it would be funnier if you actually pick on an enemy of the USA.

I didn’t mean to pick on anyone. It was intended as a “poke” at stereotypes based on nationality.

[ElectricZombie]

Really scientific Zombie. Put a OMS bp/harness next to a Halcyon. There is absolutely no difference. Put their wings next to each other, there is absolutely no difference. If there is a decernable difference, it is defineatly not big enough to warrant your comment. Sounds like the old Ford vs. Chevy debate.

A BP is a BP...pretty hard to screw up other than the harness. The outer shell of the wings are similiar, but the inner bladder of the Halcyon is tougher. Many OMS wings have bungees, multiple dumps and long inflators. I can dive a Halcon right out of the box with zero modifications.

[ElectricZombie]

Hmmm... is that Grape or Strawberry I smell??? :rolleyes:
Ben
Cherry...want some? :overlord:

[CRDiver]

It's that sort of anti-every-company-that-isn't-Halcyon-or-doesn't-bow-down-to-GI attitude that has created such a vocal opposition to Halcyon as a company.

[rcrs007]

Certainly...What info are you looking for?


Just articles, press releases on the subject. Maybe they'd have more pertinant info as they're closer to the lawsuit.

Some did say this lawsuit has been kept quiet, maybe there are no "non 2nd hand 3rd hand etc" sources of info ?

Ryan

[OneBrightGator]

Just because some OMS products have features you don't like doesn't mean everything they make is poop, In fact I'm sure you can get a wing with the correct amount of lift, the right number of dumps and the correct length inflator from every manufacturer right out of the box and cheaper than a Halcyon wing to boot!

Zombie indeed :winky:

Ben

[mempilot]

A BP is a BP...pretty hard to screw up other than the harness. The outer shell of the wings are similiar, but the inner bladder of the Halcyon is tougher. Many OMS wings have bungees, multiple dumps and long inflators. I can dive a Halcon right out of the box with zero modifications.

Just order the OMS without the bungees and with the standard inflator hose. Every wing OMS sells comes either way. They're just giving you the same quality product with an option. I don't like bungees either, so I didn't get them. My inflator hose is shorter than my old BC's. Actually, this is a personal preference based on body size, so again an option. I looked at both Halcyon and OMS. Apples to apples, no difference. As for the bladder being tougher...?

[weekender]

I didn’t mean to pick on anyone. It was intended as a “poke” at stereotypes based on nationality.

I got that. No worries, i was kidding around also.

Zombie if you go to the OMS site you'll see that you can get a bladder you just described. I dive in the NE where oms is popular and based. im always amazed how many people on this site bash their products. i had no idea all of us up here had junk for gear and are unsafe divers because of it. thanks for the thoughtful input.

[mempilot]

I got that. No worries, i was kidding around also.

Zombie if you go to the OMS site you'll see that you can get a bladder you just described. I dive in the NE where oms is popular and based. im always amazed how many people on this site bash their products. i had no idea all of us up here had junk for gear and are unsafe divers because of it. thanks for the thoughtful input.

Weekender,

I am from SE FL and dive with OMS gear. Imagine the beating I take when I go out on Brownie's boat! They all tend to repel away from me like I have the plague. It's cute though, how they all look like lemmings when they giant stride one right after the other into the ocean! :)

[mars2u]

sorry for the long post...

Well what about Seaquest BCD's that have an integrated weight system? Wouldn't that fall under the same patent infringement?


I think we've gone off topic here in a number of instances. But just to put my .02 worth...this all really depends on how strongly to feel in either case. If the lawsuit really is a burning issue with you than you have the right to choose equipment based on your feelings. After all, it wouldn't be the first time in US history that people have chosen to boycott a business due to it's practices. If however, you feel the suit is irrelevant in your decision making process than by all means include Halcyon as a possible vendor.
Just as an example...remember when PADI was forced to pay nearly 200K to Diverlink for court fees because of a ludicrous lawsuit? In my mind it didn't make people (including myself) get rid of their PADI cards albeit it made me bash their stupidity.

This happens in our society among companies. You just need to decide what's more important to you. Halycyon vs. other products. Nike's made in Vietnam vs. New Balance made in the U.S., Ford's vs. Chevy, etc.

Oh and one more thing that's off topic...being a Croatian-American...comparing Croatian views of Americans with that of the French is ludicrous. I've lived in Croatia, have many friends there and have discussed (in Croatian) mind you their views on us here. They are wrong in some instances, but that's because they don't like my conservative views concerning for example lying under oath...ahem, but loved our Dem.'s. Anyway, I've never seen any of my Croatian freinds "bash" American tourists...just make fun of our policies which is no more than we do ourselves. The only Anti-American sentimitism I felt was due to my conservative nature.

Jos jedna stvar...ne kaze se "Black humor" nego "Dark Humor". Ako se bukvalno prevodi onda ste u pravu...ali to nije izreka koja se upotrebljava....just FYI.

[OneBrightGator]

Well what about Seaquest BCD's that have an integrated weight system? Wouldn't that fall under the same patent infringement?

Yes, but Dive Rite, OMS, Abysmal and Oxycheq are direct competition for Halcyon (backplates, double and single tank wings and lights in DR and OMS's case), Aqua Lung and the like aren't, not to mention Apeks seem to be the choice regs.

Ben

[mempilot]

Oh and one more thing that's off topic...being a Croatian-American...comparing Croatian views of Americans with that of the French is ludicrous. I've lived in Croatia, have many friends there and have discussed (in Croatian) mind you their views on us here. They are wrong in some instances, but that's because they don't like my conservative views concerning for example lying under oath...ahem, but loved our Dem.'s. Anyway, I've never seen any of my Croatian freinds "bash" American tourists...just make fun of our policies which is no more than we do ourselves. The only Anti-American sentimitism I felt was due to my conservative nature..

You misread. No one put an = between French and Croatia. The French have much better food. :bonk: Read all the posts. There was some ribbing going on between the posters. Everyone else is making it into something it wasn't.

[rcrs007]

Ryan,

Why would you do anything drastic with your bp/wing regardless of the outcome of this lawsuit? You have the equip, whether you like the company or not - it is still good equip.

Yup, still good equipment. But I want to keep the possibility open that I'd sell my/not buy a company's gear if what they do business-wise does not aggree with my morals.

I wouldn't want to support something/someone I though was bad.

Ryan

[Genesis]

Yes, but Dive Rite, OMS, Abysmal and Oxycheq are direct competition for Halcyon (backplates, double and single tank wings and lights in DR and OMS's case), Aqua Lung and the like aren't, not to mention Apeks seem to be the choice regs.


Not only that, but if you read the patents it appears to cover only weight integration with fastex clip releases (unless I've missed something)

Now, among those served, find those that do not make such a device.

If you find any such examples, decide if it is reasonable to conclude that this is an attempt to drive competitors from the market, rather than legitimately enforce a patent.

Also, FWIW, perjuring yourself by filing a patent application without listing all known prior art (which you are required to do) is also a problem of ethics at minimum.

There is a relatively simple change that could be made to patent law to fix this kind of abuse - if your patent is thrown out due to undisclosed prior art, you are responsible for all costs incurred by those who you tried to enjoin as a matter of statute (that is, its not a matter of discretion); you should already be held responsible for suing someone for patent infringement that doesn't even manufacture the device you claim is bring infringed (but to the extent that such sanctions are discretionary, they need to be made mandatory)

That would make frivolous patent games EXTREMELY dangerous to play.

Until those changes are made in the law the only reasonable response to people pulling this kind of thing is to boycott their products and services.

BTW, Cronin "got his" for his frivolous suit against Diverlink. Not only did they get popped for fees and costs under California's Anti-SLAPP statute, but Cronin himself personally expired shortly thereafter.

During the time this was pending and up until justice was done, I indeed did boycott PADI.

[mempilot]

Jos jedna stvar...ne kaze se "Black humor" nego "Dark Humor". Ako se bukvalno prevodi onda ste u pravu...ali to nije izreka koja se upotrebljava....just FYI.

U redu. Jako mi je žao. Vidimo se! Let's dive together sometime. :)

[scubasean]

Just articles, press releases on the subject. Maybe they'd have more pertinant info as they're closer to the lawsuit.

Some did say this lawsuit has been kept quiet, maybe there are no "non 2nd hand 3rd hand etc" sources of info ?

Ryan

Lawsuits, when filed, are generally public record...As for being kept quiet, there may just be no interest in writing about it...Not sure why there would be a press release, unless there was a favorable disposition for the person making the release.

I haven't seen the Suunto lawsuit or any press releases, etc. on it, but am aware of it because I came across it by accident through routine work I do.

[OneBrightGator]

BTW, Cronin "got his" for his frivolous suit against Diverlink. Not only did they get popped for fees and costs under California's Anti-SLAPP statute, but Cronin himself personally expired shortly thereafter.

That's a low blow Karl, being happy about who was right winning is one thing, being happy that person died is digusting.

Ben

[scubasean]

Also, FWIW, perjuring yourself by filing a patent application without listing all known prior art (which you are required to do) is also a problem of ethics at minimum.



Well, to clarify, a US patent applicant is required to submit relevant prior art of which they are aware, but they are not required to do a search to find art they don't already have.

If such prior art is obvious in the industry, you'd think that the lawsuit(s) would go away quickly...Someone mentioned that some defendants have settled for hundreds of thousands of dollars...Seems to me that one could reasonably draw an inference from that (assuming it is true) that the settling defendants didn't believe they had a defense to mount that would cost less than the settlement amount...

[mars2u]

U redu. Jako mi je žao. Vidimo se! Let's dive together sometime. :)

ROFLMAO...nema problema. I'll dive if we go flying first...because of the flying after diving issues :)

Do not give into the dark side young paduin!!! lol

I've got a good story about a couple of girls sitting at a table next to me that didn't know I spoke Croatian. They said some things :wink: about me and I didn't let on...until I got up to leave. Talk about some red faces and the smile on my face....hehehe.

[mempilot]

ROFLMAO...nema problema. I'll dive if we go flying first...because of the flying after diving issues :)

Do not give into the dark side young paduin!!! lol

I've got a good story about a couple of girls sitting at a table next to me that didn't know I spoke Croatian. They said some things :wink: about me and I didn't let on...until I got up to leave. Talk about some red faces and the smile on my face....hehehe.

I'd love to hear the story! I only know a little, but I'm a quick learner. You're on for the flying and diving. PM me if you make down to my neck of the sunshine state.

[d33ps1x]

Oh - and by the way - other companies that have sued their competitors:

Coca-Cola/ Pepsi/RC
GM/Ford/Chrysler/Honda/Toyota/Mitsubishi/Nissan/Subaru/BMW/Volkswagen
Microsoft/Apple/Sun/IBM/Dell/Palm
Nike/Adidas/Reebok/Brooks/Puma
McDonalds/Burger King/Wendy's/White Castle/Subway
JVC/Sony/RCA/Philips/Magnasonic/
NASCAR/FIA/MLB/NFL/NHL/NBA

Need I go on???

Damn. I guess I have to write them all off. I really can live without a lot of them...But White Castle? It's what makes crossing the border worth it! :(

[OneBrightGator]

Damn. I guess I have to write them all off. I really can live without a lot of them...But White Castle? It's what makes crossing the border worth it! :(

It's not the action of the lawsuit, it's why and how. Is there an echo in here? :rolleyes:

Ben

[CRDiver]

Someone was nice enough to forward me a slightly altered (certain names whited out) scanned copy of the lawsuit in question. For those who are interested, Halcyon is apparently claiming the defendants violated 3 patents - No. 5,855,454, No. 6,530,725 and No. 6,558,082 - and is seeking damages. If you go to http://patft.uspto.gov/netahtml/srchnum.htm , and enter the numbers, you can find extensive descriptions of the patented items themselves.

[OneBrightGator]

Saturation's post on the first page of the other "Halcyon Lawsuit" thread lists the patent numbers AND what they cover.

Ben

[padiscubapro]

Well, to clarify, a US patent applicant is required to submit relevant prior art of which they are aware, but they are not required to do a search to find art they don't already have.

If such prior art is obvious in the industry, you'd think that the lawsuit(s) would go away quickly...Someone mentioned that some defendants have settled for hundreds of thousands of dollars...Seems to me that one could reasonably draw an inference from that (assuming it is true) that the settling defendants didn't believe they had a defense to mount that would cost less than the settlement amount...

The people I have hear that settled did so for only a few thousand dollars or less.. Personally I think they will be burried once it gets to court.. there is plenty of prior art out there.. a popular bc in the 80s was the ATpak, it had both weight pockets AND a ballast system in the rear..

The only two that I know settled for sure was deep-outdoors and abysmal.

[CRDiver]

Ok cool... The thread was getting so long, I obviously skipped it. In any event, the patent office link contains *very* extensive descriptions.

[Northeastwrecks]

Just out of curiosity, the lawsuit I found on the website for the United States District Court for the Southern District of Florida that concerns the patents-in-suit identifies an entity called Carleigh Rae, not Halcyon, as the plaintiff.

Purported common ownership aside, it seems to me that people should get their facts straight before sounding off.

[PurduEE]

*ahem* not true.

I think Japan is leading the field in patent applications ATM

See http://www.european-patent-office.org/tws/tsr_2001/ch3/3.2.php

Cheers,
Rob.

US leads in applications granted, which I think is what you meant. If not, I can't think of a reason that applications (and not applications granted) would be important when discussing who generates more patents... After all, if it's not granted, you can't use it as a stick against your competition.

http://www.uspto.gov/web/tws/tsr2002/ch4/4_3.html

Here's an exerpt:
"The USPTO has also experienced an increase in the number of patents granted, with 167,334 registrations in 2002, an increase of 0.8% over the previous year. This is the highest number of grants among the Trilateral Offices. "

Trilateral being Japan, EPC, USA. Japan has been on a decline since 2000, and EPC granted less than 1/3 of the US number.
*ahem*

[HawaiiDiver]

OK stud thanks for teaching everyone a lesson!

[OneBrightGator]

The named corporation is owned by Robert M. Carmichael, who is an corporate officer in the "empire" that is GUE/Halcyon

Carleigh Rae Corp.:
http://www.sunbiz.org/scripts/cordet.exe?a1=DETFIL&n1=P96000032739&n2=NAMFWD&n3=0000&n4=N&r1=&r2=&r3=&r4=CARLEIGHRAE&r5=

In fact his name is listed under GUE and Brownies:
http://www.sunbiz.org/scripts/cordet.exe?a1=DETFIL&n1=N01000000098&n2=OFFFWD&n3=0003&n4=P&r1=&r2=&r3=&r4=&r5=&r6=&r7=CARMICHAELRO&r8=

http://www.sunbiz.org/scripts/cordet.exe?a1=DETFIL&n1=P01000040294&n2=OFFFWD&n3=0001&n4=P&r1=&r2=&r3=&r4=&r5=&r6=&r7=CARMICHAELRO&r8=

Anything else I can help you with?

Ben

[d33ps1x]

OK stud thanks for teaching everyone a lesson!

Again for good measure...???

[Northeastwrecks]

The named corporation is owned by Robert M. Carmichael, who is an corporate officer in the "empire" that is GUE/Halcyon

Carleigh Rae Corp.:
http://www.sunbiz.org/scripts/cordet.exe?a1=DETFIL&n1=P96000032739&n2=NAMFWD&n3=0000&n4=N&r1=&r2=&r3=&r4=CARLEIGHRAE&r5=

In fact his name is listed under GUE and Brownies:
http://www.sunbiz.org/scripts/cordet.exe?a1=DETFIL&n1=N01000000098&n2=OFFFWD&n3=0003&n4=P&r1=&r2=&r3=&r4=&r5=&r6=&r7=CARMICHAELRO&r8=

http://www.sunbiz.org/scripts/cordet.exe?a1=DETFIL&n1=P01000040294&n2=OFFFWD&n3=0001&n4=P&r1=&r2=&r3=&r4=&r5=&r6=&r7=CARMICHAELRO&r8=

Anything else I can help you with?

Ben

Yeah, you can tell me how a bright little boy like you found out how to access the internet without learning how to read.

Halcyon is not the named plaintiff. Saying that Halcyon is suing people is inaccurate.

[OneBrightGator]

Well, technically I suppose you're right, but then, a corporation can't really file suit, it's not a tangible entity, but then, I doubt Mr. Carmichael did either, I mean, I'm sure he's a very busy man, so we should really say their lawyers have filed the suit!

Give me a break, this is exactly the reason the Carleigh Rae Corp. exists, to give all those involved a wall to hide behind and play shadow games, sorry I showed you who's behind the wall, but I was only doing what you asked and I would think you, of all people, would understand that, especially since lowly old illiterate me got it right off the bat. :winky:

Ben

[jonnythan]

Apologies. I was at work all day and missed the fun.. I wasn't able to get the file until just now.

http://jonnythan.com/SDOC0049.pdf

There's not much there, but it's worth looking at.

[jonnythan]

http://jonnythan.com/SDOC0049.pdf

[Northeastwrecks]

Thanks for posting that, Jonnythan. Any idea why someone redacted it?

OBG, you've identified common officers, not common ownership.

[OneBrightGator]

OBG, you've identified common officers, not common ownership.

And common interest.

Thanks Jon, that's a beautiful thing :winky:

Ben

[jonnythan]

Notice that it's dated September 26 of last year.

I just got the file from Gator, so you know as much as I do.

[leadweight]

Someone want to tell the rest of us exactly what is going on here without a flame war? Like, what exactly is do the patents cover? This is really going to be fun if the DIR guys start to patent things like the long hose, bolt snaps and so forth.

[Genesis]

Well, technically I suppose you're right, but then, a corporation can't really file suit, it's not a tangible entity, but then, I doubt Mr. Carmichael did either, I mean, I'm sure he's a very busy man, so we should really say their lawyers have filed the suit!

Give me a break, this is exactly the reason the Carleigh Rae Corp. exists, to give all those involved a wall to hide behind and play shadow games, sorry I showed you who's behind the wall, but I was only doing what you asked and I would think you, of all people, would understand that, especially since lowly old illiterate me got it right off the bat. :winky:

Ben

Ssshhhh.... you're pointing out why certain groups of people tell their clients to do things like that Ben.... you know, its why they think their advice is worth $300/hour.

In truth, the better path as a businessperson is to be forthright and play straight. If people research my former corporate organization, they will find no "shell games" played; I don't believe in it.

IMHO such an organization says, to me, that the organizers of the firm in question are LOOKING for cover (and so are their counselors!)

Now if you're a forthright businessperson engaged in a legitimate enterprise, exactly what is it you're looking for cover FROM? Hmmm.....

[Scubaroo]

Did the "other" Halcyon thread do a Johnny Cochran? It's nowhere to be seen.

[Arnaud]

Is Carmichael still a shareholder of Halcyon?

[DivePartner1]

I have a scanned pdf copy of the complaint, but it's too big to upload, if somebody has a way to break it into to two pieces I'd be glad to pass it along.

PM me.

Ben

Could you identify the court and caption?

[sapphire]

Could you identify the court and caption?

It's the US District Court, Southern District of Florida. Sorry, I don't know what "caption" means or I would look for that on the document...

[d33ps1x]

I've decided not to boycott White Castle. It gives me something to do in Detroit besides hockey games.

[Otter]

Ssshhhh.... you're pointing out why certain groups of people tell their clients to do things like that Ben.... you know, its why they think their advice is worth $300/hour.

<snip>

Now if you're a forthright businessperson engaged in a legitimate enterprise, exactly what is it you're looking for cover FROM? Hmmm.....

I agree with your Philosophy, unfortunately in our legal system even those who NEVER commit a crime can still get sued and must endure the expense, time, and frustration in dealing with it. Even if they win, they are still out time and potentially goodwill.....thats why many cave in and settle which renforces this ugly cycle and those type of lawsuits continue.

To be clear, I am responding in general and not to the specific allegations in this case -- of which I have NO knowledge.

[AzAtty]

A bunch of them, DP. Did a PACER search in the Southern District of Florida under "Carleigh Ray" and found 15 suits. The following 12 are probably the patent suits. Two others (Mares and Aqualung) are copyright infringement. Another against Abysmal is probably a patent suit.

0:03cv61798 Carleigh Rae Corpora v. Custom Buoyancy, Inc 09/30/03 02/03/04
0:03cv61799 Carleigh Rae Corpora v. International Divers 09/30/03 01/21/04
0:03cv61800 Carleigh Rae Corpora v. Watermark Scuba, Inc 09/30/03 01/21/04
0:03cv61801 Careigh Rae Corpora v. Sherwood Scuba, LLC 09/30/03 02/04/04
0:03cv61802 Careigh Rae Corpora v. Hughco Sales Company 09/30/03 01/05/04
0:03cv61803 Carleigh Rae Corpora v. Ocean Management 09/30/03 01/20/04
0:03cv61804 Carleigh Rae Corpora v. Tabat USA, Inc. 09/30/03 10/01/03
0:03cv61806 Carleigh Rae Corpora v. Deepoutdoors, Inc 09/30/03 01/29/04
0:03cv61807 Carleigh Rae Corpora v. Duffy 09/30/03 02/04/04
0:03cv61808 Careigh Rae Corpora v. Divetek, Inc. 09/30/03 01/30/04
0:03cv61809 Carleigh Rae Corpora v. Lamartek, Inc. 09/30/03 01/21/04
0:03cv61811 Careigh Rae Corpora v. Cressi-Sub U.S.A. 09/30/03 02/02/04

[LUBOLD8431]

Hmmm... I wonder if its just coincidence that IDI went out of business just a few months after the lawsuit was filed???

[Scubaroo]

Didn't IDI of Turtle Fin fame just go bankrupt as the result of a lawsuit? Would that be "International Divers" mentioned above?

[edit] - double post, same question as Chuck. Didn't see his post.

[LUBOLD8431]

I believe they are one in the same. This is not good. Halcyon is going for world domination...

[d33ps1x]

I believe they are one in the same. This is not good. Halcyon is going for world domination...

Before you see Bill Gates and JJ doin' lunch.

[Scubaroo]

People keep mentioning "JJ" in this thread - assuming you are all referring to Jarrod Jablonski, I am yet to see his name mentioned anywhere in the limited documents in the public domain, or hear of his involvement in any manner.

It would probably be a good idea for people to *stop* mentioning his name in connection with the lawsuit, and have a good hard think of the potential consequences of continuing to do so.

Seeing as this lawsuit is not yet concluded, I guess we will all just have to await a verdict (or whatever legal mumbo-jumbo happens) as to the validity of the claims and the ramifications for all involved.

[chrpai]

Potential consequences? Are you saying people in this forum are now going to be intimidated into censorship?

JJ is the CEO of Halcyon so how can you have a conversation about Halcyon filing a lawsuit without talking about its agents?

[Scubaroo]

Censorship? I'm not a freaking moderator anymore - I can't intimidate anyone into anything.

Apparently it's not Halcyon's lawsuit - it's a lawsuit filed by a corporation owned by someone other than "JJ". So yeah, mentioning "JJ" might have consequences - not just for the posters posting it, but for ScubaBoard. An Australian scuba forum was recently threatened with legal action because of posts a user made there (totally seperate matter), I'm guessing in litigation-land it's even more likely.

[Genesis]

The corporation that filed the suit is "owned" by Robert Carmichael. Robert has a number of "shell" corporations - a common game played in the corporate world.

Among the "others" Robert's name is "connected to" are Global Underwater Explorers and Brownies. GUE lists JJ as its registered agent and on its corporate officer list.

This is PUBLIC INFORMATION and can be found at www.sunbiz.org.

When you sleep with dogs, you wake up with fleas.

Go digging around on the Florida Corporate web site if you'd like.

[chrpai]

Censorship? I'm not a freaking moderator anymore - I can't intimidate anyone into anything.

Apparently it's not Halcyon's lawsuit - it's a lawsuit filed by a corporation owned by someone other than "JJ". So yeah, mentioning "JJ" might have consequences - not just for the posters posting it, but for ScubaBoard. An Australian scuba forum was recently threatened with legal action because of posts a user made there (totally seperate matter), I'm guessing in litigation-land it's even more likely.

Thats exactly what I'm talking about. Your trying to intimidate the owners of Scubaboard into censoring this thread.

"litigation land" ... why don't you come live here before claiming you know anything about here.

[Big-t-2538]

Thats exactly what I'm talking about. Your trying to intimidate the owners of Scubaboard into censoring this thread.

"litigation land" ... why don't you come live here before claiming you know anything about here.Ummm...he did...for like 2 years...he just recently moved back to Oz. Would you like a crobar to remove your foot from your mouth?

[Boogie711]

Thats exactly what I'm talking about. Your trying to intimidate the owners of Scubaboard into censoring this thread.

"litigation land" ... why don't you come live here before claiming you know anything about here.

OMG - too funny. Ben just moved to Oz from San Francisco, or somewhere like that...

Dude - I've said it before, I'll say it again - you REALLY need some anger management counseling.

Now be a good boy and apologize to Scubaroo.

[Genesis]

Oh, here's the other funny part of this.

If you read the patents, they appear to cover non-ditchable weights attached to a cylinder or person to insure that their airway remains clear on the surface.

In other words, on their back, face-up.

Which, by the way, is a body position that is the antithesis of the "DIR-style" of diving :D

Now you could argue that a "V-weight" or "P-weight" would violate these "patents", as its (1) non-ditchable and (2) located before submersion and not able to be moved during the time underwater. And I put "patents" in quotes specifically because people have been using such weighting arrangements long before anyone decided to try to claim a patent on them, and those who made the claim had to know that such arrangements were in common use long before the so-called invention was devised. Of course they didn't (typically) use them for airway protection though..... at least not in a diving application.

There might be a novel claim for this sort of thing in a lifejacket application.... maybe.

But IMHO there is nothing novel at all about non-ditchable trim weights in a diving application. Indeed, non-ditchable trim weighting dates back before BCs existed.

BTW I did hear that IDI went under in no small part due to a lawsuit, but the details have not been made clear - specifically, if THIS suit was in any way related to that. If this little game caused Turtles to "go away", I suspect that a large number of DIR-style divers (all potential customers of one of Carmichael's buddies) might be REAL pizzed off. (I'm glad I own my two pair of Power Fins already!)

Anyone know if there's a connection between this suit and IDI's apparent demise?

[weekender]

this is an interesting thread. i don't know anyone who is GUE certified. so what I know about them is from their website and SB. am I correct in what I read, Mr. Jablonski is affiliated with GUE and Halcyon? also from what ive read; again not from what he or anyone from GUE have told me personally, the GUE/DIR set is rather aggressive at marketing Halcyon products. If this is true, doesn't this make anyone wonder about their motives when recommending gear? Now before anyone flames on me about this I feel its a legit question. im in no way trying to discredit GUE and dir's philosophy, teaching or anyone's diving ability. im just asking about marketing motives. im an instructor but always make a point of disclosing that im paid nothing by anyone to use or sell their gear. this makes me feel im giving an honest opinion. if i found out my instructor was paid to sell me gear i would take his recommendation with a grain of salt. similar to a broker telling me to buy a stock their firm has banking relationships with. am i at all correct? if im not then i must have read something wrong. if im right, am i the last diver on earth to know this? again not a dig on dir or gue just an honest question about people im not that familiar with.

[Boogie711]

Genesis - with respect, dude - you're REALLY reaching here. You're running around connecting a lot of dots just on your own whims and fancies - and now you're trying to blame Halcyon for killing IDI?

For heaven's sake - there is a judicial system. Why don't you stop passing judgement and let the Judge do that?


And Weekender - no. I have never heard a DIR instructor tell people to buy Halcyon. Ever. I know they like it for a variety of reasons, but you can be totally DIR compliant without a single stitch of Halcyon gear.

In fact, I challenge you to find ANY GUE graduate who would say their instructor told them to buy Halcyon anything. Certain components may have been recommended, and Halcyon perhaps provided as an example of a wing that does meet those components, but for the most part, they're actually quite careful around the "H" word.

[weekender]

Genesis - with respect, dude - you're REALLY reaching here. You're running around connecting a lot of dots just on your own whims and fancies - and now you're trying to blame Halcyon for killing IDI?

For heaven's sake - there is a judicial system. Why don't you stop passing judgement and let the Judge do that?


And Weekender - no. I have never heard a DIR instructor tell people to buy Halcyon. Ever. I know they like it for a variety of reasons, but you can be totally DIR compliant without a single stitch of Halcyon gear.

In fact, I challenge you to find ANY GUE graduate who would say their instructor told them to buy Halcyon anything. Certain components may have been recommended, and Halcyon perhaps provided as an example of a wing that does meet those components, but for the most part, they're actually quite careful around the "H" word.

fair enough. sounds good. again i have no beef with anyone, was just asking.

[scubasean]

In fact, I challenge you to find ANY GUE graduate who would say their instructor told them to buy Halcyon anything. Certain components may have been recommended, and Halcyon perhaps provided as an example of a wing that does meet those components, but for the most part, they're actually quite careful around the "H" word.



So, the instructor "recommends" the gear but they aren't making the gear purchase mandatory...In the eyes of the newly educated student, I fail to see much of a difference, unless they talk about other manufacturers' gear as also being compliant...Do they do that?.

I'm actually not for or against Halcyon, and am not Gue trained but have adopted many of their practices, but was commenting on the comment...LOL

:banana:

[Genesis]

Genesis - with respect, dude - you're REALLY reaching here. You're running around connecting a lot of dots just on your own whims and fancies - and now you're trying to blame Halcyon for killing IDI?


There is no "whim and fancy" about Carmichael and JJ's association, nor with how Brownies more-or-less started (via/through JJ and GI) what turned into GUE/DIR and Halcyon. Some links are clearly documented to this day, including Carmichael's listing on GUE's officer list (available through their public filings), ownership of Brownie's, etc.

OWNERSHIP of private corporations (e.g. who owns the stock) is much tougher to establish. That is not reportable, generally-speaking. Sometimes, but not always, such a person has an officer seat and thus shows up on corporate reports. There were two "silent owners" of my corporation that appeared NOWHERE on the corporate records, but they did own shares of the company. That is extremely common and is in no way improper. Beyond the officers and/or directors of a corporation, the "owners" have no voice other than their vote at shareholder meetings (which can include removing the directors!) This is all part of how corporations "work".

Halcyon Manufacturing is the corporation in High Springs; "Halcyon" is a registered fictitious name of the company. The only officer listed in Halcyon's public filings is JJ. You can call the Secretary of State's office and get a copy of any corporation's articles as filed currently (for a price), but the online info available is more limited - usually you can get officers, the registered agent (for service of process) and in many cases annual reports, which are typically a single-page form and contain little real information other than that the firm is a going concern.

Like I said, I do not know what suit caused IDI to take a dirtnap, but I heard about it happening back towards the end of last year and as I was looking for a second pair of Power Fins (larger, for my drysuit) I made sure I got them FAST. There are also rumors that the IDI death was only partially caused by a suit, and also partially by infighting among the owners/shareholders, so exctly what happened there I do not know - which is why I asked if anyone else did (and was willing to talk!)

You're off the deep end with your accusations Boogie.

In no way did I state that Halcyon caused IDI to take a dirtnap, but it is curious indeed that IDI's folding is coincident in TIME with these suits. I am quite curious about exactly WHY IDI went down; so far I have been unable to get a straight answer from anyone, and there are some folks who DO know but aren't talking. As such I asked a question, and pointed out the irony of a possible connection between these suits and IDI's demise.

Finally, as has been pointed out, Halcyon "proper" did not file these suits; a holding company did.

[chrpai]

OMG - too funny. Ben just moved to Oz from San Francisco, or somewhere like that...

Dude - I've said it before, I'll say it again - you REALLY need some anger management counseling.

Now be a good boy and apologize to Scubaroo.\

California IS NOT the United States....

[OneBrightGator]

Seeing as this lawsuit is not yet concluded, I guess we will all just have to await a verdict (or whatever legal mumbo-jumbo happens) as to the validity of the claims and the ramifications for all involved.

We're not allowed to look at the material presented and make a decision on our own? Pretty much all the information a judge will have is public. Besides, I haven't passed judgement on who is right or wrong in the suit, but that the suit itself is illegitimate.

Ben

[caveseeker7]

Jeez, this is a heated debate. Everytime I hit refresh there are new posts ... .

I was at DEMA and heard of the rumor that Halcyon served atendees. And as it turns out they were just rumors.

Quite frankly I find it highly objectionable and legally questionable that either Halcyon or JJ gets slammed here for a lawsuit filed by another party.
If I were JJ or in any way associated with ownership in Halcyon I'd be p!ss!ng bricks by now ... . Calling for a boycott based on that suit is somewhere between unreasonable and stupid.

Patents were granted to Carmichael and Courney. Not JJ. Not Halcyon. Not EE, GUE or WKPP. I realize that whenever any of those abreviations, names or DIR or GI3 are mentioned two exteme sides are quickly formed and the flame throwing starts. But why here, other than the thread's title?

Jeggles (who started the thread with his 1st post on the board!?) obviously was fairly clueless about the nature of the suit, the people and business entities involved, and just repeated a rumor he picked up somewhere else.

Now with a copy of the suit floating around and a list of plaintiff and defendents posted, as well as the links to corporations and their officers both JJ and Halcyon should be out of the debate. The only connection between JJ, Halcyon and the lawsuit is the fact that Carmichael holds a postion on the board of GUE. A training agency which did not bring the suit (or, as a legal person, has any involvement with the patents that I can see).

So maybe it's time for some of you to cool it (if you need further help try cool aid :D ) and make an honest approach to think straight.
Stop slamming the guy and his company for something that's not his doing !

Finally, for the record, I own neither Halcyon equipment nor any shares in the company. I'm not on JJ's christmas list either.
I'm concerned about the lawsuit, and the damage or financial hardship they may cause some of the defendents. I own and use equipment made by three of them, DiveRite, Oxycheq and Deep Outdoors. I like all of it, in DiveRite's case also the excellent customer service, in Duffy's all the help he has provided over the years to RB divers. So yes, I'm very unhappy about them being named defendents. But why let it out on JJ and/or Halcyon?

[cornfed]

California IS NOT the United States....
Of all the childish and back-handed ways of getting out of admitting a mistake this one takes the cake!

[NWGratefulDiver]

FWIW - IDI's legal trouble had nothing to do with Halcyon ... it was a suit filed by the company's former owner. I got that information from the letter IDI sent out to it's dealers.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[OneBrightGator]

The only connection between JJ, Halcyon and the lawsuit is the fact that Carmichael holds a postion on the board of GUE. A training agency which did not bring the suit (or, as a legal person, has any involvement with the patents that I can see).

If you can't see the nepotism in the whole organization you must be blind.

Ben

[Capt Jim Wyatt]

It would probably be a good idea for people to *stop* mentioning his name in connection with the lawsuit, and have a good hard think of the potential consequences of continuing to do so.



Please explain the consequences you have thought of.

[Boogie711]

Genesis - guess what buddy - the entire world is not one giant conspiracy theory.

I know this is going to come as a shock to you. I know you won't believe me, and are just as likely to launch into a 6 paragraph rebuttal, but let me just take this short and sweet - the entire world is not one giant ongoing conspiracy theory. Chill out, dude.

And while you may not have directly accused Halcyon of trying to bankrupt IDI, I sure as heck insinuated it from reading your posts. Heck - you were just pontificating on the consumer backlash from DIR divers about killing Turtle fins! That's a hefty insinuation, don't you think???

Whatever. I give up. It's like trying to preach to the wall sometimes. There is a legal system. If the suit is without merit, it will fail. Let's leave all the pontificating until then, shall we?

Sheesh.

[rjchandler]

Halcyon is obviously going to rely on the patents at least as a licensee so they are involed in some way.

The patents involve more than keel weights and BCs. It involves all manner of in water flotation devices. It looks like they patented their Multifunction Compensator (or whatever they call it) as one application. This would include the method of attaching thr keel weights to the cylinder, the design of the wing with a the air cell larger behind the neck, and the life raft and all the other stuff attached by a pouch. they also claim to be extensions of preexisting patents held by Courtney dating back to 1986.

The above is based on ONE reading of the links OBG posted with eyes severely glazing over.

[LUBOLD8431]

Jeez, this is a heated debate. Everytime I hit refresh there are new posts ... .

I was at DEMA and heard of the rumor that Halcyon served atendees. And as it turns out they were just rumors.

Quite frankly I find it highly objectionable and legally questionable that either Halcyon or JJ gets slammed here for a lawsuit filed by another party.
If I were JJ or in any way associated with ownership in Halcyon I'd be p!ss!ng bricks by now ... . Calling for a boycott based on that suit is somewhere between unreasonable and stupid.

Patents were granted to Carmichael and Courney. Not JJ. Not Halcyon. Not EE, GUE or WKPP. I realize that whenever any of those abreviations, names or DIR or GI3 are mentioned two exteme sides are quickly formed and the flame throwing starts. But why here, other than the thread's title?

Jeggles (who started the thread with his 1st post on the board!?) obviously was fairly clueless about the nature of the suit, the people and business entities involved, and just repeated a rumor he picked up somewhere else.

Now with a copy of the suit floating around and a list of plaintiff and defendents posted, as well as the links to corporations and their officers both JJ and Halcyon should be out of the debate. The only connection between JJ, Halcyon and the lawsuit is the fact that Carmichael holds a postion on the board of GUE. A training agency which did not bring the suit (or, as a legal person, has any involvement with the patents that I can see).

So maybe it's time for some of you to cool it (if y