An accident waiting for a place to happen

[Kim]

Today I heard a story that has shocked me very deeply. I thought of posting this in the accidents forum - but it hasn't happened yet. I have a friend who is Japanese and an OW Scuba Instructor with the Japanese Scuba organization (don't know it's name). The guy is a good instructor with new divers from what I've observed - but on his own he is another story.
I was at his house this evening and he asked me what was the deepest dive I had ever done. I told him 38 meters (124ft) and asked him why he wanted to know. He told me that he had just broken his personal record and done a dive to 65 meters (213ft). Shocked - I asked him if he had done this on air. Yes, he replied, and so I asked him if he was aware how dangerous it had been. He seemed to think that the only problem that he could have had was narcosis - so I asked him if he knew about oxygen toxicity - he didn't (he has never done a Nitrox class and knew nothing about it). I explained partial pressures to him quickly, and he was interested - but not overly concerned about what he'd done. I tried to tell him that there can be no warnings to sudden convulsions and at that depth it's almost certain death. I don't think he believed me.
The guy did this dive on a single tank with another diver (also on a single tank) - they had no stage or pony at all - they had no idea what they were really doing.
Now I'm just waiting to hear one day that he's been killed - possibly with someone else.
I don't really know what to say to him now - 'goodbye' doesn't seem that constructive.

(If the mods feel this post is in the wrong forum - please move it)

[DORSETBOY]

Unfortunatley not everyone practices what they preach and I include myself in that, we've all done things we shouldn't do. When instructors teach they often get bored of repetitive dives and in their own time may 'push the limit', this can apply to non-diving circumstances too. Yes it is hypocritical for someone to teach one thing and dive breaking 'the rules' but then people used to dive to 70 m on air with no redundancy in the past it's just that we now know of safer ways of diving to these depths.

Does it shock me that an instructor has done such a dive? It should but in reality this is very common.

[Kim]

I just wish that he could speak and read English. Then I could introduce him to SB and broaden his horizens a bit!

[captain]

A lot of spearfisherman do 200 foot dives on air every week here on the Louisiana oil rigs. Acording to what is said on this board the local newspapers should be fill with stories of dead divers but they aren't. Every few years there is a fatality usually because the diver speared a fish he couldn't handle and didn't know when to give up and let the fish go.

Captain

[Kim]

A lot of spearfisherman do 200 foot dives on air every week here on the Louisiana oil rigs. Acording to what is said on this board the local newspapers should be fill with stories of dead divers but they aren't. Every few years there is a fatality usually because the diver speared a fish he couldn't handle and didn't know when to give up and let the fish go.

Captain
So are you telling me that this is OK and I shouldn't be worried? That a PPO2 of over 1.6 is actually safe? Maybe it's time for me to relearn everything I thought I knew!

[Rick Murchison]

You seem to be concerned about oxygen toxicity at 213' on air.
The NOAA limit for a single exposure to air at that depth is 45 minutes - not likely to be a problem on a single tank.
Certainly there are other issues on such a dive - narcosis, DCS, marginal gas supply, marginal redundancy (just a buddy), marginal planning, marginal thinking.
But oxygen toxicity isn't likely to be a problem.
Rick

[pipedope]

Diving is not safe.

Diving deep on air is certainly less safe than diving shallow on air.

Diving to deeper and deeper depths is an enhearently dangerous activity that requires major study of ALL of the risk factors if you expect to survive very long.

Many of the risk factors offset each other to 'some' extent making a good understanding of the overall risk difficult at best.
Example, high N2 reduces the likelyhood of O2 tox. Unfortunately it also make you loopy.

Another big problem is going deep without redundant gas supplies and enough gas to handle a problem at depth AND then do the deco required by the extended bottom time.

And this is just a start.

Lots of people have gone deep on air.
Some survived, some didn't.

Few will do it today.

I support the right of each diver do do what he wants AS LONG AS HE (SHE) KNOWS WHAT HE IS DOING!

[Rick Murchison]

So are you telling me that this is OK and I shouldn't be worried? That a PPO2 of over 1.6 is actually safe? Maybe it's time for me to relearn everything I thought I knew!
Naw, he's not telling you that...
(213+33)/33=7.45 X .21 = 1.56 PO2
Very short exposure; no worries.
At least not from the oxygen.
Rick

[MikeFerrara]

Unfortunatley not everyone practices what they preach and I include myself in that, we've all done things we shouldn't do. When instructors teach they often get bored of repetitive dives and in their own time may 'push the limit', this can apply to non-diving circumstances too. Yes it is hypocritical for someone to teach one thing and dive breaking 'the rules' but then people used to dive to 70 m on air with no redundancy in the past it's just that we now know of safer ways of diving to these depths.

Does it shock me that an instructor has done such a dive? It should but in reality this is very common.

200 ft on air may still be somewhat common but they cut things kind of close as far as reserve gas supply (if they were on Al 80's) and I hope that isn't too common especially for people who should know beter.

I don't think of 200 ft as a very deep dive and while I don't care to go that deep on air lots of divers have and do.

You couldn't get me that deep on a bet without a descent size gas supply and some redundancy though. IMO, that's a stunt not a dive.

[Rick Murchison]

200 ft on air may still be somewhat common but they cut things kind of close as far as reserve gas supply (if they were on Al 80's) and I hope that isn't too common especially for people who should know beter.

I don't think of 200 ft as a very deep dive and while I don't care to go that deep on air lots of divers have and do.

You couldn't get me that deep on a bet without a descent size gas supply and some redundancy though. IMO, that's a stunt not a dive.
Well said, Mike. A stunt is an accurate description, I think.
Rick

[pipedope]

While 200' is not DEEP it is deep on air.

Personally I would do a dive to 200' on air ONLY surface supplied, with a helmet and hard wire communications, on a time critical, high value job that doesn't allow time to get mixed gas gear to the site.

I would consider a FULL AL80 to be a bailout bottle on this dive as a minimum.

Anybody here want to guess how many times I have done dives into a pipe just to say that I did it? :eyebrow:

[H2Andy]

18.7 times

[mania]

It's dangerous to dive that deep on air and with a single tank. But my friend - an instructor - is a diver for 30 years. He tells me that 30 years ago, at least here in Poland, there were no other gases - only air. And as commercial diver he did even deeper dives - like 80 or more meters.
He is still alive and I don't think it's only pure luck.
Mania

[H2Andy]

yes, no doubt that it can be done, and it has been done. just like once upon a time,
fires were put out by volunteers using horse-pulled wagons.

but is it necessary to fight fires with horse-pulled wagons when we have
modern fire engines?

wouldn't it be a shame if this person died because they did not take advantage
of the knowledge and techonologies available today?

[Kim]

yes, no doubt that it can be done, and it has been done. just like once upon a time,
fires were put out by volunteers using horse-pulled wagons.

but is it necessary to fight fires with horse-pulled wagons when we have
modern fire engines?

wouldn't it be a shame if this person died because they did not take advantage
of the knowledge and techonologies available today?
Put it like this - if I posted in a couple of weeks that this person HAD died doing such a dive, I don't believe too many people would be surprised. For me it would be more than a shame - I know his wife and kids.
Thank you Rick & Pipedope for educating me a little better on the oxygen toxicity thing - you are right and I was worried about that - less now. However I don't really see any 'marginal redundancy' here - presumably his buddies tank is emptying as fast as his is at that depth - they are not going to make it down there with full tanks that's for sure - lose one tank and that's surely going to be a BIG problem - or not?

[pipedope]

ZERO, zip, none, nada.

I did a dive into a pipe because someone was paying me to do a job that happened to be inside the pipe. I used the gear that best suited keeping me alive and getting the job done.

I didn't dive Farnsworth Bank to say I did it, but to see the purple coral with my own eyes. It was worth the trip, to me. :D

[simbrooks]

yes, no doubt that it can be done, and it has been done. just like once upon a time,
fires were put out by volunteers using horse-pulled wagons.

but is it necessary to fight fires with horse-pulled wagons when we have
modern fire engines?

The Omish still do it that way..... ;)

I would imagine that a dive to 200ft would have to be a deco dive with stops on the way back up, does this instructor know about deco diving?? Fair guess he might not if he doesnt know about mixed gases, some of the fundamental laws of diving, the risks involved, extra equipment to make overhead diving less risky etc. It doesnt sound like something i would jump in and do, particularly if i had been diving a while.

[captain]

The point of my post was to point out that 200 foot air dives are not that uncommon in some areas of sport diving. As done in spearfishing it is drop down as fast as possible looking for the big one. If he's not there it's right back up, total time less than five minutes with 1500 psi left. If he is you shoot him and drag him up into shallow water. The total time maybe a little longer but not the time at 200 feet. Most of these divers have been doing this for many years. I know one who has over 30 years of this type of diving. To imply that if you do 200 foot air dives that eventually it will kill you is not fact. I know a lot of divers on this board frown apon spearfishing and many from interior areas of the country don't have a clue about it. IMO diving half a mile back in a cave only to see rock is a stunt.

Captain

[H2Andy]

The Omish still do it that way..... ;)


i think the rest of the world calls them the Amish...

well, at least Weird Al Yankovick does

:eyebrow:

[simbrooks]

Really dont pay attention to correct spelling of words i have only ever heard, never met the people and never seen the name spelt.... maybe i should, but that would be too much trouble. I stand corrected, the point still stands.

[MikeFerrara]

The point of my post was to point out that 200 foot air dives are not that uncommon in some areas of sport diving. As done in spearfishing it is drop down as fast as possible looking for the big one. If he's not there it's right back up, total time less than five minutes with 1500 psi left. If he is you shoot him and drag him up into shallow water. The total time maybe a little longer but not the time at 200 feet. Most of these divers have been doing this for many years. I know one who has over 30 years of this type of diving. To imply that if you do 200 foot air dives that eventually it will kill you is not fact. I know a lot of divers on this board frown apon spearfishing and many from interior areas of the country don't have a clue about it. IMO diving half a mile back in a cave only to see rock is a stunt.

Captain

Bounce dives for the purpose of spear fishing seem like a special case. Personally I still wouldn't do it at 200 ft with only one little tank but for most divers not fishing a bounce dive like that isn't hardly worth the trip. When I do to 200 ft, I'm going to see something and I'm going to hang out for a half hour or so.

We from the deep dark interior get to do a little spear fishing and we don't all frown on it. LOL Still I'm comfortable stating that I don't think there is anything I could learn about spear fishing that would get me to 200 ft with just an Al 80 and no redundancy. In fact if I was doing it "solo" like many spear fisherman do I wouldn't do it at any depth without some redundancy.

Going half a mile into a cave just to see a rock isn't a stunt but it is silly. We go for a lot more reson than that. I do it because some of the caves I dive are among the most beautiful places on the planet among other reasons.

[H2Andy]

IMO diving half a mile back in a cave only to see rock is a stunt.

we don't agree, but it's a whole lot safer, if done according
to procedure, than (1) solo (2) bounce diving (3) to 200 feet (4) on air (5) with a single AL80.

[gfisher4792]

Wait a sec... he's an experienced instructor but knows nothing about oxygen toxicity? Maybe my training was different (not much experience with different instructors, let alone agencies), but in my OW class, it was talked about, however briefly.

Never mind his deep diving on air, I find his lack of knowledge scary.

[perpet1]

Naw, he's not telling you that...
(213+33)/33=7.45 X .21 = 1.56 PO2
Very short exposure; no worries.
At least not from the oxygen.
Rick

Thanks Rick that initial post had me reaching for the calculator. 1.6 is actually 218 feet if I remember right.

In any case people have and do dive this deep on air and on single tanks. I have done it in the past (bail out and stage bottles) but I probably will not do it in the future as it is rather pointless and in my opinion rather stupid.

I would NOT recommend it to anyone but if somone chooses to do it they should at least know the risks involved. Then if they do it and get hurt it is all on them.

[perpet1]

Put it like this - if I posted in a couple of weeks that this person HAD died doing such a dive, I don't believe too many people would be surprised. For me it would be more than a shame - I know his wife and kids.
Thank you Rick & Pipedope for educating me a little better on the oxygen toxicity thing - you are right and I was worried about that - less now. However I don't really see any 'marginal redundancy' here - presumably his buddies tank is emptying as fast as his is at that depth - they are not going to make it down there with full tanks that's for sure - lose one tank and that's surely going to be a BIG problem - or not?

I think you may be a little mistaken here.

If these guys are instructors I would bet their SAC rate is pretty low. A bounce dive to 200' (as long as they did not hang out down there) should provide them "marginal" redundancy for air. I am not saying that it is perfect or am I endorsing it BUT there would be enough air (probably) for both to come up sharing from 200'. Now factor in a problem and all that goes out the window hence "marginal" redundancy.

[perpet1]

Wait a sec... he's an experienced instructor but knows nothing about oxygen toxicity? Maybe my training was different (not much experience with different instructors, let alone agencies), but in my OW class, it was talked about, however briefly.

Never mind his deep diving on air, I find his lack of knowledge scary.

I agree this is the issue that should bother most.

[mania]

yes, no doubt that it can be done, and it has been done. just like once upon a time,
fires were put out by volunteers using horse-pulled wagons.

but is it necessary to fight fires with horse-pulled wagons when we have
modern fire engines?

wouldn't it be a shame if this person died because they did not take advantage
of the knowledge and techonologies available today?

Andy, there is no question that doing such thing now is stupid. I only wanted to remind that some have done it this way some time ago. And it doesn't mean that they are doing it now - at least my friend doesn't.
Mania

[Mortlock]

Wait a sec... he's an experienced instructor but knows nothing about oxygen toxicity? Maybe my training was different (not much experience with different instructors, let alone agencies), but in my OW class, it was talked about, however briefly.

Never mind his deep diving on air, I find his lack of knowledge scary.

Exactly. I don't find the depth on single tank of air too scary, it's more the fact that he knows nothing of oxygen toxicity! :11: I'm only a novice diver but I do know something about it. You'd expect an instructor of any agency to at least have a basic knowledge of OT.

[hvulin]

I think human body gets used to air on depth... At least mine does... I can normally do a dive at 57m and have no problem at all (single 15l bottle) but I never do it at the beggining of the season, but after some 20 dives in a row (each of them is over 30m) I feel safe enough... (although I don't do it if there is no reason to do it... - the wreck can be seen from 45m just as well)

but the instructor of ANY category MUST know about OT and he has no excuse for this (and his instructor too)

there is nothing down there that deserves going that deep!

[Sideband]

Going half a mile into a cave just to see a rock isn't a stunt but it is silly. We go for a lot more reson than that. I do it because some of the caves I dive are among the most beautiful places on the planet among other reasons.

Do you have any pics of those caves? Would you share them with me? I'd like to see them and, unfortunatly, I have mild claustrophobia so going myself is not likely.

Joe

[MikeFerrara]

Do you have any pics of those caves? Would you share them with me? I'd like to see them and, unfortunatly, I have mild claustrophobia so going myself is not likely.

Joe

I have a few but their not digital and I lost the hard drive that I had them all scanned onto.

Check out CDF (http://cavediver.net). There are lots of pictures there

[Hank49]

The point of my post was to point out that 200 foot air dives are not that uncommon in some areas of sport diving. As done in spearfishing it is drop down as fast as possible looking for the big one. If he's not there it's right back up, total time less than five minutes with 1500 psi left. If he is you shoot him and drag him up into shallow water. The total time maybe a little longer but not the time at 200 feet. Most of these divers have been doing this for many years. I know one who has over 30 years of this type of diving. To imply that if you do 200 foot air dives that eventually it will kill you is not fact. I know a lot of divers on this board frown apon spearfishing and many from interior areas of the country don't have a clue about it. IMO diving half a mile back in a cave only to see rock is a stunt.

Captain
I tend to agree with you here Captain. I would venture to say that 90% of the instructors I know, and worked with do these type of bounce dives on air, some to even 90+ meters. But with short bottom times and most with no more than 10-15 minutes deco time. Many may say its pointless....but I have to say it was pretty fun.
Deep cave and wreck penetration on mixed gas with 2-3 hour decos? And commercial diving to 180 meters on gas? Try to get life insurance if you do this. Life insurance policies and premium increases are all about statistics. When I got my last term policy the agent asked if I scuba dived. I said yes, and he asked what level I was certified to. I told him Open Water Instructor. To which he replied, "oh, it has no premium increase if you're an instructor". Statistics. If all these instructors doing deep air dives were dying at a higher rate, they would charge more for life insurance....but they don't. Hank

[Sideband]

I have a few but their not digital and I lost the hard drive that I had them all scanned onto.

Check out CDF (http://cavediver.net). There are lots of pictures there

Thanks! Yup. Doubt I could take much of that. I'd be ok as far in as I could still see the entrance and as long as there was always room to turn around easily.
Some cool video on there of entire dives.
Thanks again for the link. I'll look back there from time to time.

Joe

[MikeFerrara]

I tend to agree with you here Captain. I would venture to say that 90% of the instructors I know, and worked with do these type of bounce dives on air, some to even 90+ meters. But with short bottom times and most with no more than 10-15 minutes deco time. Many may say its pointless....but I have to say it was pretty fun.
Deep cave and wreck penetration on mixed gas with 2-3 hour decos? And commercial diving to 180 meters on gas? Try to get life insurance if you do this. Life insurance policies and premium increases are all about statistics. When I got my last term policy the agent asked if I scuba dived. I said yes, and he asked what level I was certified to. I told him Open Water Instructor. To which he replied, "oh, it has no premium increase if you're an instructor". Statistics. If all these instructors doing deep air dives were dying at a higher rate, they would charge more for life insurance....but they don't. Hank

I don't think we can say that since instructors do this and recreational instructors don't have trouble getting insurance that it must be safe. I know lots of instructors and they don't do these deep bounce dives. I'm an instructor and I don't do it. The false assumption seems to that instructors in general do it.

On the other hand cave diving and deep technical diving hasn't hurt my ability to get insurance.

[MikeFerrara]

Thanks! Yup. Doubt I could take much of that. I'd be ok as far in as I could still see the entrance and as long as there was always room to turn around easily.
Some cool video on there of entire dives.
Thanks again for the link. I'll look back there from time to time.

Joe

Some of the caves we dive have enough room to turn a truck around.

[miketsp]

People have been diving the 2 of the best dives in Brazil on air with single tanks for many years.
The Corvette Camacuan in Recife 57m / 187ft and the Corvette V17 Ipiranga in Fernando de Noronha 60m/197ft.
Last time I was in Noronha a couple of years back the procedure for tourists was you needed AOW + 50logged dives + Nitrox card. You then did 3 observed dives + checkout dive with a DM at 42m (Pontal do Norte). All being well you go down with an AL80 but the DM would have either redundant twin or extra cylinder & regs + extra cylinder with nitrox or O2. Planning for deco done on CMAS air table but nitrox/O2 used for deco. Extra cylinders & regs suspended at deco stop.
I know a lot of people that did this dive & never heard of any accidents.

[MikeFerrara]

All being well you go down with an AL80 but the DM would have either redundant twin or extra cylinder & regs + extra cylinder with nitrox or O2. Planning for deco done on CMAS air table but nitrox/O2 used for deco. Extra cylinders & regs suspended at deco stop.
I know a lot of people that did this dive & never heard of any accidents.

To each their own but if doubles are required for a dive, I'll carry my own...thanks anyway. LOL

They do a similar thing in Bakini. If you're AOW they'll take you on 170 - 180 ft dives with a DM to nurse you through the decompression. Silly me though...I like to plan and do my own decompression and carry my own gas.

[cancun mark]

200 ft on air may still be somewhat common

IMO, that's a stunt not a dive.

I agree, this is not a dive, this seems to be someone who should know better, but aparently does not, being in a place where he probably shouldnt be. I hope he has either the sence to take this type of dive seriously, or to stop doing it before he gets hurt.

Maybe you should print out this thread and show him. It might save his life.

[QuoVadis]

[QUOTE=simbrooks]Really dont pay attention to correct spelling of words i have only ever heard, never met the people and never seen the name spelt.... maybe i should, but that would be too much trouble. I stand corrected, the point still stands.[/QUOTEnevermind

[H2Andy]

actually, the correct conjugation is "spolt," being the past tense (as in,
"I spolt it wrong but my daddy didn't know no diff'rent."

"spelt" is the future tense, as in "I'm gonna spelt it out fer you"

[Gary D.]

Today I heard a story that has shocked me very deeply. I thought of posting this in the accidents forum - but it hasn't happened yet. I have a friend who is Japanese and an OW Scuba Instructor with the Japanese Scuba organization (don't know it's name). The guy is a good instructor with new divers from what I've observed - but on his own he is another story.
I was at his house this evening and he asked me what was the deepest dive I had ever done. I told him 38 meters (124ft) and asked him why he wanted to know. He told me that he had just broken his personal record and done a dive to 65 meters (213ft). Shocked - I asked him if he had done this on air. Yes, he replied, and so I asked him if he was aware how dangerous it had been. He seemed to think that the only problem that he could have had was narcosis - so I asked him if he knew about oxygen toxicity - he didn't (he has never done a Nitrox class and knew nothing about it). I explained partial pressures to him quickly, and he was interested - but not overly concerned about what he'd done. I tried to tell him that there can be no warnings to sudden convulsions and at that depth it's almost certain death. I don't think he believed me.
The guy did this dive on a single tank with another diver (also on a single tank) - they had no stage or pony at all - they had no idea what they were really doing.
Now I'm just waiting to hear one day that he's been killed - possibly with someone else.
I don't really know what to say to him now - 'goodbye' doesn't seem that constructive.

(If the mods feel this post is in the wrong forum - please move it)
How would you feel about a dive to 60' on 100% O2?

Gary D.

[Kim]

I agree, this is not a dive, this seems to be someone who should know better, but aparently does not, being in a place where he probably shouldnt be. I hope he has either the sence to take this type of dive seriously, or to stop doing it before he gets hurt.

Maybe you should print out this thread and show him. It might save his life.I wish he could read it! Unfortunately he only reads Japanese.

How would you feel about a dive to 60' on 100% O2?I wouldn't do it - I'm only rated to EANx40 and thats as far as my tables go! I also have no idea how long you could tolerate a PPO2 of around 3.0 (for 20 meters/66ft) - just from reading I thought deco divers only used 100% O2 just below the surface - but again - this is still beyond my training!

[Sideband]

I wish he could read it! Unfortunately he only reads Japanese.




http://www.worldlingo.com/wl/translate
There's a link to a translator if you don't mind doing a bit of cutting and pasting. You could send it to him. Just an idea.
a caveat though. I tried pasting in a translation of your original post and noticed a few "funny" things. It wasn't there when I pasted it into the reply but when I previewed it there was a "1 2 3 4 :smile: " and I'm pretty sure that isn't Japanese. Should work ok into an email though or maybe using the url to translate the entire page. Again... Just an idea..

Joe