The Philosophy of Diver Training

[DCBC]

Hi DCBC,

Thanks for the reply. I believe the inclusion of "Instructor Judgment" allows an instructor in any agency to add additional training as he/she sees fit. As I mentioned in my post to Jim, we can very easily drift into the whole "instructor vs. agency" argument again if we aren't careful. Nevertheless, I appreciate the discussion.

I work in health care which is inundated with a mountain of policies, procedures, and standards... and rightly so. However, there is inevitably a phrase or clause in the policy and procedure manual that allows for "clinical judgment", "professional assessment", and other such ambiguous terms that permit us to use our brains and our experience and still operate within the limits of hospital-accepted standards.

Unfortunately, there will be those whose interpretation of such vague expressions will contribute to the deterioration of today's training which is lamented upon in SB again and again... Ooops... I'm drifting into that "instructor vs. agency" debate again.

Thanks again for your thoughts... As I mentioned in my post to Jim, your words, along with many other people's, will be rattling in my head as I do my IDC with PADI this summer. Cheers.

Thanks for the interaction. There is certainly an element of instructor judgement involved in any agency. With PADI, it is very clear when instructor judgement stops and agency policy prevails. This is most clear in two areas:

1. A PADI instructor may not test on any material other than those outlined within the minimum standards; and

2. Once the minimum standards are met, the instructor must certify the student.

This differentiates a PADI instructor from an instructor of any other diving certification body, of which I'm aware.

If a student learns anything past the minimum knowledge and skill requirements of PADI, it is only through the determination of the instructor. Insuring diving skill and knowledge (teach/test) outside the minimum requirements is prohibited by PADI. Like I said previously, when the focus is on equipment sales and not education, we do the student a disservice.

Good luck on your IDC!

 

[Kingpatzer]

Not being a smartass and maybe I just missed, it but where are you from and where do you plan to be teaching?

I'm in MN. We do our cert dives in local lakes and quarries, and never consider taking new students to Superior for even simple dives there.

Just curious because if you were from this area or DCBC's or the PNW you might have a totally different idea as to what benign is.

The great lakes are fairly temperamental freshwater in-land seas. We don't have the tidal issues of the oceans, but it can go from flat and calm to "god I hope we make it back to port before we swamp" really quick. Being aware of current weather and water conditions as well as forecasts is a critical part of planning a great lake dive.

I;d also be curous as to what different types of conditions you've dove in so far and where. Really this is a serious question.

Superior in a variety of conditions, various lakes and quarries from pretty darn clear and calm to during a serious rain shower and true zero visibility. I've done Bonaire, Coz, and Banderas Bay. I dive locally year round, getting as many ice dives in each year as I possibly can.

I felt as an instructor I owed it to my students to dive in as many different places and conditions as possible.

I'd toss in that I think every diver owes that to themselves first. As an instructor it just becomes a benefit to the instructor's knowledge base. But I agree with the general sentiment.

 

[Kingpatzer]

The problem is that the focus of PADI training is warm water under idealistic conditions.

This is true. And it is generally sufficient for the majority of students. The people I know who dive locally (such as myself) pretty much universally came back from a trip and said "ok, I want to do this more, what courses should I take?"

I do know of one fellow who wanted to do Superior wreck dives and wasn't doing a trip, and he came in and did OW, Dry Suit, PPB, AOW, Rescue and Wreck pretty much one right after the other -- because after discussion with the instructors that's what he felt comfortable with being necessary to adequately prepare him for the diving he wanted to do.

 

[schaffld]

I have said it before. A few times. Because it is true. I've worked with one or two of them as a DM and dove with some as well just for fun. And I honestly think we'd see more if they were allowed to teach a bit differently in some cases or not held back by shop quotas and timetables.

Ugh... now it's becoming the "instructor vs. agency vs. greedy, money-hungry diveshop owner" debate.

Sorry, couldn't resist. Again, thanks for your thoughts.

My goal as an instructor is to educate students to become safe, responsible, and confident divers. In my preparation for the IDC, I am not having any trouble visualizing how I can incorporate my own personal standards and expectations into the PADI system to achieve that goal. I may very well find that the reality of the situation is different with the boss breathing down my neck to expedite the course or the IDGAS attitude from a student who wants to just pay the money and get the card, but that will just add to the challenge... or so I hope.

Yes, the environment I will eventually be teaching in will be that warm and tropical one. I can see how teaching students in temperate waters requires a much different approach.

Thanks again.

 

[schaffld]

Thanks for the interaction. There is certainly an element of instructor judgement involved in any agency. With PADI, it is very clear when instructor judgement stops and agency policy prevails. This is most clear in two areas:

1. A PADI instructor may not test on any material other than those outlined within the minimum standards; and

2. Once the minimum standards are met, the instructor must certify the student.

This differentiates a PADI instructor from an instructor of any other diving certification body, of which I'm aware.

If a student learns anything past the minimum knowledge and skill requirements of PADI, it is only through the determination of the instructor. Insuring diving skill and knowledge (teach/test) outside the minimum requirements is prohibited by PADI. Like I said previously, when the focus is on equipment sales and not education, we do the student a disservice.

Good luck on your IDC!

Thanks... again. It's great when these discussions unravel in such a way... Too bad we can't have it over a beer or two.

Your first point... This idea ventures into the realm of elaborating on a standard compared to exceeding a standard. There is nothing stopping a PADI instructor from having a student remove, replace, and clear a mask a dozen times during an OW course even if the standard only requires him/her to show mastery once. Yes, this is done at the discretion of the instructor, not agency mandated [edit], but also not prohibited by the agency.

Point two... basically a repeat of a previous post I addressed to you. Agencies set their standards. There is no "minimum" about it... there is just the standard. If hypothetical agency X requires their instructors (at their discretion) to teach beyond their stated standards, than what good are their standards in the first place? I know we are infringing on semantics here, and you did make your point about where you are coming from in a previous post, so perhaps I'm just being overly picky about the wording of "minimum standards"... I do that sometimes and I don't wish to belabour the issue.

I can, however, infer from your posts that you believe PADI's standards are insufficient, especially for the environment in which you dive. In my attempt to find that middle-ground and completely avoid, at all costs, any agency-bashing, I know that I can very easily incorporate my own personal goals into the system established by PADI to teach a student to become that safe, confident, and responsible diver we all hope to certify.

Believe me, I do not hold up any one source of information (an agency Instructor Manual, in this case) with reverence as if it were some sort of all-encompassing fountain of inerrant knowledge.

Cheers

 

[FireInMyBones]

From what I have gathered, there are agencies that allow for additional information to be taught. Others require the instructors to certify anyone who can complete the minimum requirements.

Okay, so we see a need for change in training.

1. Is there anything we can do to improve new diver knowledge of skills and information short of blowing off the "minimum" rule?

2. Is there any way to even prepare a new diver for every possible scenario (s)he may encounter?

3. Understanding that the dive industry is run by consumers (those who buy products: training and equipment), how would changing the standards affect the industry?

4. When new training agencies do pop up with higher standards (whether we agree with all of the standards or not), why are these agencies ridiculed (i.e. GUE...please understand this is an example)?

-Jeremy

 

[Crush]

I remember attending many talks at university where experts on teaching argued that the old style of teaching should be abandoned in favour of learner-centric teaching. The offered many "common sense" examples of how getting the students to be more engaged would make them better learners - they believed this to be true in their souls. They nearly made me believe it. However, the rapture on their faces would disappear once I asked them if they had any metrics for learning which have shown that their new methods out-perform the old methods.

I really like this thread and all the opinions I hear.

Here is my challenge - how and where do we compile accident and fatality stats based upon the individual's certification agency? DAN's stats deal with certification levels, not with NAUI vs SSI, etc..

BTW, I know that such a list of stats will never be made. But I do have some bets...

 

[FireInMyBones]

I remember attending many talks at university where experts on teaching argued that the old style of teaching should be abandoned in favour of learner-centric teaching. The offered many "common sense" examples of how getting the students to be more engaged would make them better learners - they believed this to be true in their souls. They nearly made me believe it. However, the rapture on their faces would disappear once I asked them if they had any metrics for learning which have shown that their new methods out-perform the old methods.

In college, several of my instructors taught that these where the ways to teach. The irony? They taught like the rest of my instructors.

BTW, I know that such a list of stats will never be made. But I do have some bets...

We all do.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

While far from scientific and not a broad view of all accidents I have prepared a presentation on the failure of the buddy system. The inspiration, if you will, was the accidents and incidents section on this board. I looked at 12 fatalities that are in that section for everyone to see. Read them, looked up news articles, got my hands on autopsy and police reports, talked to witnesses, and began to analyze which ones could have been prevented and how. The answer was frightening. In every case I chose all of the deaths could have been prevented or the victim had a better chance of survival if proper buddy procedures had been followed. But then I took it further and looked at why they were not. This involved looking at the dive plan, the training and experience of the divers and their buddies, and the site conditions. They all had two things in common. First was a breakdown in communication at some level. Second, all the divers had buddies of some type. From this I looked deeper and found a few disturbing issues.

Things like the divers were not really taught the importance of diving with a buddy. They were not required to dive as proper buddy teams in training. They received little or no instruction as to how to assist a buddy beyond a tired diver tow. They were not informed as to just how little they knew. They made judgment calls that showed a clear lack of understanding of their recommended limits. They did not take responsibility for themselves but trusted a DM/Guide to plan their dive and keep them safe. They were not required to plan their dives as a team but let the instructor lead them around.

All of these things and more should have been in their OW course and gone over so much that they should have been second nature. I spent 6 months working on this because I felt so strongly about it. I even developed 2 new dives for my AOW course to specifically deal with these issues and reinforce proper buddy procedures and team work. I'm giving this presentation next week to a local club and then at Scubafest in Columbus in mid March. But it did change the way I look at training new OW divers and led me to include even more info on communication at all levels in my courses. To constantly remind students what their limits are, to make it perfectly clear what can happen if they try to go outside these too far and too fast.

If you want to see what causes accidents read some of the near misses, look at the questions being asked by newly certed divers, ask yourself why are they asking them. There are some that come up all the time or on a regular basis that are clearly things that should have been covered in OW class but were not or the student did not get it. And if they did not get it why? Then look at who they are training with and ask yourself if you would let the people who trained these divers train your son, your daughter, your wife, etc. And after they did would you let them dive without you or another pro? Just saying................

 

[Web Monkey]

2. Is there any way to even prepare a new diver for every possible scenario (s)he may encounter?

Nobody can be prepared for everything, however it really isn't necessary that every OW diver be prepared for low-probability events when the high probability events account for a huge portion of injuries and fatalities and can be prevented by actually learning and following current OW training.

I've witnessed or been a rescuer in at least a dozen incidents in the past nine years. There wasn't a single one that wouldn't have been prevented by:

• A real pre-dive personal and buddy check.
• Properly planning the dive, including turn pressure and reserve gas for the buddy.
• Diving the plan, including monitoring depth, time, remaining gas and buddy condition/location
• Maintaining buddy contact/distance
• Having a realistic assessment of personal and buddy training and capabilities and not exceeding them. This includes knowing when to stay on the boat or shore. (Knowing when to say "no")

And even though it doesn't cover diving in 36 degree water with heavy surf and an outgoing tide, it does cover knowing that that might be a good dive to not do without more training.

There isn't a single item above that shouldn't be part of a good OW class. I'd be surprised if even PADI could object to this.

Terry