Accident at Vortex Springs 8-20-10

[Kevin Carlisle]

Thank you Cave Diver, I guess the difficulty I am personally having with that thread is that it is stated much after the fact, whereas the original poster stated that he heard with his own ears the woman state that a male had checked out the key and not returned it. Certainly this leaves an opening for a person other than Ben to have done so but it seems unlikely given that if it wasn't him then the key would have been returned.

It also seems at least reasonable that if the key was in fact given to him and that if he was not certified to have it, that the owner now recognizes the liability of giving it to him and would be vehemently denying having done so. Anyone, no matter how qualified to dive caves cannot speak on this fact because they would not have been there to witness the alleged key exchange. The only people present for that would be the person giving it and the person receiving it plus maybe a few EMPLOYEES of the owner. If giving it is now denied, and the receiving of it cannot be verified by Ben, well then the next and only credible witness to the exchange is the poster who was present and heard the owner state that the key was given to him. The only way to refute this is to pull the public record and or discuss the matter with the poster who heard the conversation in person.

I'm sure this is very hard for you. Remember the guy who posted that information was on the dive. It wasn't hear say. James,myself and several others know what your feeling. We get calls and then we have to stew until names are released wondering if we just lost another friend. There is no good endings here for friends and family. When this hits us, best thing we can do is go dive. It sucks but nlthing else we can do. And we do blast our friends when we find out they broke any rules.

 

[Salient]

Deleted by Salient

 

[iztok]

If I went into a cave without the proper training and died, I'd expect my friends here would say about me that:

"He was a dumb ass for going in there without the proper training and experience". ​

I think they'd be spot on.

I share the sentiment here. Plus please if I ever get my sorry untrained ass in tight spot like this, don't risk your life. My body is simply not worth it. It will decompose down there just as it would in a coffin. Only time I really want someone to care about my body is if organs in it are still viable for transplant and saving someones' life.

 

[Salient]

Salient: Every time we lose a fellow diver, it hits all of us hard, cavers, rec divers, bubble blowers, etc. When accidents happen and a fatality results, I often think "how can I learn from this". This is why this board is so valuable.

I would never presume to know Ben on a personal level, because I don't. Most of us reading and writing in here do not also. But, as the saying goes, Actions Speak Louder Than Words.

I have read here that Ben was involved or headed up an organ donation organization, and that speaks volumes about his giving personality and desire to help others. This is the side of Ben that you know. OTOH, his actions on Wednesday speak of another side of him. Possibly, the Throw Caution to the Wind side. This is the side of Ben that divers now know and he is now putting other's lives at risk. I feel strongly that Ben would not have wanted this, but out of respect for his family and friends, strangers have been attempting very dangerous things to give closure. I respect them immensely for that.

If this thread were about my family member or close friend and I was not a diver, I couldn't read it. Please try not to be offended by this discussion. We are all heavy hearted over this tragedy.

Thank you Airleron, I think your point is well made.

 

[Crush]

This is exactly my point, the thread should be for accident analysis, not the condemnation of a man who clearly made a mistake.

Salient, I am sorry for your loss.

I am not a cave diver. Sure, I have heard that I should not enter a cave without training, but at times I have been tempted to "just take a peek." I know several non-cave certified divers who have done this - if I listened to them only, I would think that it might be OK. However, reading the harsh condemnations of Ben's choice might make at least one non-cave certified diver think twice before trying something similar. If harsh words save a life, then there is some merit to them.

 

[ScubaNurse758]

Salient, if you are trying to stop people from making comments, whether validated or unvalidated, you are wasting your time. This "obscure forum" was here long before you were and will be here, offering valuable information for those in the diving community, long after you are gone. Please do yourself a favor and stick to the memorial thread.

 

[mike_s]

He knew it was over his head, and no one pushed Ben into the water that day...
Any liability and blame lies directly on one persons shoulders...

Has someone stated that Ben was pushed into the water or were just stating that to get your no doubt very well and informed opinion into this conversation.?Do you have a single fact to offer or only your no doubt highly valuable expert opinion?


You are the kind of man that is making my point. No a single bit of constructive advice to offer this board or this world

you just don't get it do you?

the key is not really relevant. (whether he had it or not).

He went into the cave system with no cave training... he's putting other people's lives at risk to recover his body.


This death or this thread would have never happened if he had NOT gone into that cave which he was NOT trained for.

I feel for the family for their loss, but you're just being emotional and looking for someone to argue with at this point. It's not going to bring your friend/family member back. sorry....

 

[Meister481]

Thank you Cave Diver, I guess the difficulty I am personally having with that thread is that it is stated much after the fact, whereas the original poster stated that he heard with his own ears the woman state that a male had checked out the key and not returned it. Certainly this leaves an opening for a person other than Ben to have done so but it seems unlikely given that if it wasn't him then the key would have been returned.

It also seems at least reasonable that if the key was in fact given to him and that if he was not certified to have it, that the owner now recognizes the liability of giving it to him and would be vehemently denying having done so. Anyone, no matter how qualified to dive caves cannot speak on this fact because they would not have been there to witness the alleged key exchange. The only people present for that would be the person giving it and the person receiving it plus maybe a few EMPLOYEES of the owner. If giving it is now denied, and the receiving of it cannot be verified by Ben, well then the next and only credible witness to the exchange is the poster who was present and heard the owner state that the key was given to him. The only way to refute this is to pull the public record and or discuss the matter with the poster who heard the conversation in person.

You are taking for granted that the key was given to him. The original poster stated that it was give out to a man. In order to get the key you have (had) to leave your cert card. There's no telling who at this point, unless you have access to the cert card left by the diver.

It is an odd turn of events, and at first read I wondered about it. 2 rescuers stated that the gate was damaged in order to open it. Your friend did repair it with a chain so other uncertified divers couldn't enter the cave. There are several caves within an hour of this one that don't have gates. These are IMO better, more beautiful caves but he chose this one.

At the end of the day it comes down to this. He made a bad judgment call and has passed. There is no denying he was a good person that had a lapse in judgment when he decided to vandalize the gate to gain entry to the cave. I know there is so solace in this fact but he died doing what he loved.

There are 2 sides to this story and at this point we've all been trying to find out what happened. Both sides of this tragedy are upset and this makes it hard on everyone. You've lost a loved one, we have friends and loved one risking their lives. It's a very emotionally charged event so remember that and stick to what we know transpired.

 

[netmage]

Has someone stated that Ben was pushed into the water or were just stating that to get your no doubt very well and informed opinion into this conversation.?Do you have a single fact to offer or only your no doubt highly valuable expert opinion?


You are the kind of man that is making my point. No a single bit of constructive advice to offer this board or this world

And your obviously looking for a scapegoat... Throwing words like liability and employee around.

Do you have anything to contribute to what is known about this incident? Or are you just performing damage control...?

 

[Salient]

I'm sure this is very hard for you. Remember the guy who posted that information was on the dive. It wasn't hear say. James,myself and several others know what your feeling. We get calls and then we have to stew until names are released wondering if we just lost another friend. There is no good endings here for friends and family. When this hits us, best thing we can do is go dive. It sucks but nlthing else we can do. And we do blast our friends when we find out they broke any rules.

Cave Diver, thank you again. I know you are truly trying to be informative. The only point I am making here is that your friend who was on the dive, and who should be raised up on the shoulders of giants for risking his own life, only saw what was below. He could not have been present when the key was exchanged nor did he hear the owner of vortex state that she had given the key. The lock may have been "jimmied" but it also may not have been Ben who did it. This doesn't mean Ben should have been down there, I think that is beyond obvious now, but there is a difference in a man willing to break a lock and leave others in danger as a opposed to a man who went where he should not have gone and I think that measure is willful intent. I for one would be much less angry with a man who knowingly walks through my gate and drowns in my pool than with a man who sees the lock on my gate, breaks it and then drowns in my pool. I would almost want to express that he got what he deserved and this distinction is what is raising the passions and opinions of the posters on this forum. If Ben didn't willfully break it then he is not quite the same person that some are saying, he is simply a guy who made a tragic mistake and overestimated his ability not a given given to careless disregard for human life.