Two fatalities in Monterey

[Blue Sparkle]

We also talked about adding an some sort of "out of gas drill" to our pre-dive checklist. Such as turn around close your eyes, exhale and hold your breath. Now turn back around and find my Octo. This will also be a reminder that we need to stay close together...

I realize you may not have meant this literally -- and the drill sounds like a great idea -- but I wouldn't recommend to "hold your breath." Again, you may just have said this figuratively, and I imagine you know not to hold your breath while SCUBA diving.

Actually, I suppose if one does not ascend at all, then technically it would be okay, but it seems like a huge risk to me, and just goes against the "keep airway open" that I think it's good to have locked in motor memory. I could easily see ascending a bit during a drill, especially if one has one's eyes closed.

It's good to hear you used this accident as a jumping off point for a talk with your young divers and an impetus to do some drills

Blue Sparkle

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I've read that they still have not recovered their gear. I suppose the reports of one being OOA and the other LOA were from rescuers' quick views as they removed them from their kits for retrieval. It is common for newbies to overweight for various reasons, hell they are often trained that way so they will get down with the Insts, so I'm guessing the kits are weighted down on the bottom - perhaps pushed into deeper waters by currents.

Knowing who their instructors were, I'm guessing that they were not overweighted ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[DandyDon]

Knowing who their instructors were, I'm guessing that they were not overweighted ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Ok maybe they were not trained that way after all, but newbies often do have difficulties sinking so will add more on their own, more than needed with proper descent techniques - and this was a subsequent ocean dive to some they had already done on that trip, presumably with the same suits, BCs, etc. A lot of adjustments are made going from FW training to SW diving, different rental gear & tanks, etc - sometimes in excess and/or mistake. Since we will not be seeing any first hand or official reports for a long time to come I think, those are my best guesses.

Anyway, it seems they were weighted enough to keep their kits down and they may never get to examine the gear and tanks, altho toxicology tests are being finished on the boys.

 

[Michael Meyer]

This is in response to Blue Sparkle's post (didn't reply correctly):

Blue Sparkle wrote:

I realize you may not have meant this literally -- and the drill sounds like a great idea -- but I wouldn't recommend to "hold your breath." Again, you may just have said this figuratively, and I imagine you know not to hold your breath while SCUBA diving.

Actually, I suppose if one does not ascend at all, then technically it would be okay, but it seems like a huge risk to me, and just goes against the "keep airway open" that I think it's good to have locked in motor memory. I could easily see ascending a bit during a drill, especially if one has one's eyes closed.

It's good to hear you used this accident as a jumping off point for a talk with your young divers and an impetus to do some drills

Blue Sparkle

My response:

....if you run out of air what are going to do? Instinctively I think you are going to hold your breath. Both of my kids know that if you can not ascend and hold your breath. I have beaten this into them and will continue to. I am talking about a drill or routine similar to the drills I did in the military. Although I wouldn't be creating a bunch of distractions and yelling at them while they fight to get the regulator. Although it has crossed my mind...

If anyone has any other ideas feel free to share.

 

[Thalassamania]

Your disdain for all scuba training that is not Scripps is well documented ... it must be lonely up there with only God for company.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Bob, you can take it any way you want to, I really don't give a damn, but the facts are the facts ... the system that I use is well documented as the safest diver training system and the safest diving community (at least within the USA). I don't know why simple facts gives you heart burn, except perhaps because you're not, "a member of the club" and can't stand the idea that there is a better way (for those who are willing to put out the effort.

Sure, we are out on one extreme, but what can be learned from that is that certain things are possible even when some folks don't think so. Come to think of it, didn't you once write something to that effect?

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Ok maybe they were not trained that way after all, but newbies often do have difficulties sinking so will add more on their own, more than needed with proper descent techniques - and this was a subsequent ocean dive to some they had already done on that trip, presumably with the same suits, BCs, etc. A lot of adjustments are made going from FW training to SW diving, different rental gear & tanks, etc - sometimes in excess and/or mistake. Since we will not be seeing any first hand or official reports for a long time to come I think, those are my best guesses.

Anyway, it seems they were weighted enough to keep their kits down and they may never get to examine the gear and tanks, altho toxicology tests are being finished on the boys.

... and how do you know all this?

How much weight does it take to sink a weight-integrated BCD with no air in it? What sort of exposure suits do you suppose they were wearing?

Please, let us know ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I don't know why simple facts gives you heart burn, except perhaps because you're not, "a member of the club" and can't stand the idea that there is a better way (for those who are willing to put out the effort.

Facts don't give me heartburn ... speculation being put out there as though it were facts does. And for a guy who insists on evidence from others, you've been pretty free with your own speculation in this thread regarding this accident ... in the total absense of evidence.

I really don't much care about your club ... I'm happy for ya, actually. Safe is good. I just get a little tired of hearing about how superior it is. You make the worst of the DIR elitists look downright humble at times.

We are all aware that you're the ultimate diving instructor ... you tell us so regularly ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Blue Sparkle]

....if you run out of air what are going to do? Instinctively I think you are going to hold your breath.

I might have before my OW class, but (hopefully) not after. It was "beaten" into us to NEVER hold our breath. Never! We were to either exhale slowly, "make bubbles" (if possible), or, if not, at least maintain an open airway (hum, make a tone, or, if nothing else at least keep our airway relaxed and not "held"). Of course one never knows what one will do, in a real emergency, but I think if I never hold my breath on a drill, I am much more likely to "instinctively" not hold it when it happens for real.

It sounds like you are confident and have a plan; I just felt I had to comment, as I could see it possibly becoming dangerous (I know if I were to close my eyes and do a drill, I very well might ascend some). But I don't mean to tell you how to dive with your kids, and I am not a seasoned pro anyway, so I hope I didn't come across as meddlesome.

Blue Sparkle

 

[Lobzilla]

Bob, you can take it any way you want to, I really don't give a damn, but the facts are the facts ... the system that I use is well documented as the safest diver training system and the safest diving community (at least within the USA). I don't know why simple facts gives you heart burn, except perhaps because you're not, "a member of the club" and can't stand the idea that there is a better way (for those who are willing to put out the effort.

Sure, we are out on one extreme, but what can be learned from that is that certain things are possible even when some folks don't think so. Come to think of it, didn't you once write something to that effect?

Thalassamania, such strong opinions and words make me curious what the Scripps Scuba training is all about. Where can I find the curriculum without being "a member of the club"?

 

[raftingtigger]

After having read all 30 pages of this thread I have a few comments/things to consider. The discussion has covered many areas from prevention (best) to problem solving. Prevention has been well covered so these comments are for when things have already gone wrong.

First, my heartfelt condolences to the families of the two youth, and everyone else involved. I was at the same dive site the day after and only learned of this tragedy through this forum. The whole thing is hitting me hard - I am the leader of a youth group with kids the same age as the two divers and we are taking OW certification (I'm taking divemaster) and will do our OW dives at the same general area. I'm using the information in this thread to help PREVENT a disaster within my group.

I was trained in buoyant ascents (drop weights at the bottom), but that was in 1973. Many of the posters are making recommendations, but fail to give their qualifications. While I'm not going to make any recommendations in this post, my qualifications are: I'm currently a professional healthcare provider (Physician Assistant in Urgent Care), former Airline Captain (and check airman), ALPA safety committee member with extensive accident and safety training, Flight instructor for many years, former Paramedic, professionally trained Whitewater rafting guide, Swiftwater rescue and Rescue Diver trained. From this vantage point I have a few comments.

1. We will likely never know what happened to these two young men. The 'what if' process going on in this thread MAY help prevent a similar tragedy.

2. Formal investigation of this tragedy MAY help diver safety in the future.

3. Placing blame is a 'cop out', and a way of saying it won't happen to you. Accident investigation is about learning from, so as not to repeat... It is NOT about finding fault. Litigation is for that.

4. This tragedy did not happen on a Tec dive. Tec diving is a specialty (which I know very little about) and Tec divers carry additional equipment, often including completely separate air supplies. So to use Tec rules/procedures in this case is to compare apples to oranges. Also Tec divers generally have a LOT more experience than it appears these two youth had. Reactions to stress changes with experience.

5. Both young men in this tragedy were NEGATIVELY buoyant at the time they were found – else why were they on the bottom.

6. To paraphrase a 1991 Monterey Diving guidebook: The 23 dive fatalities in the last 20 years (numbers are my best recollection) ALL (my emphasis) had their weight belts on. I do not know if this applies from 1991 to present, but according to our PADI instructor he believes it still does. This is a POWERFUL statistic in my mind.

7. An object at the bottom (any visibility) is harder to find than the same object on the surface. The more restricted the visibility the greater the difficulty.

8. A BCD cannot be inflated underwater if the tank is empty - either by the power inflator or by mouth.

9. I know of only two ways to make a negatively buoyant object into a positively buoyant one. Either increase displacement (ie add air into a BCD) or decrease density (ie drop weights). This is physics.

10. Dropping a weight belt does not have to mean dropping all your weights. There is a big difference in dropping a 10-15# belt and a 25-40# belt. This thinking is changing how I'm going to rig my personal (and family) gear. BCDs will carry trim weight, use of ankle weights, and keep the actual ditchable weight belt to a reasonable weight, but one that allows positive buoyancy at any planned depth by its removal. I have discussed this with our PADI instructor and he agrees.

11. You can't hurt a dead person. Drowning IS DEAD ("near drowning" is different), AGE, other lung overexpansion injuries, and DCS while they can cause death, are often treatable.

12. A difference between a CSEA and a Buoyant one is muscle power (at least initially). Oxygen is required to make muscles work. If your tissue oxygen gets too low to sustain muscle function BEFORE surfacing, then your CSEA had better become a buoyant one, else you will sink.

13. Not all accidents are preventable, not all situations are survivable. We try to do the best we can. Prevention is better than corrective action, but corrective action is better than no action.

Again my condolences to the families, friends, co-divers, and others involved. For those directly involved PLEASE get professional counseling to help you through this horrible event.