AED Use in Diving Emergencies

[Reefdiver77]

We dove with Scubatech out of Destin and I noticed an AED aboard the Sea Cobra when doing boat dives with them in July.

 

[peterbj7]

According to Pura vida ( a Dive shop that books Narcosis), there is one boat in Palm Beach that DOES have a AED, and that is Narcosis.

Also.....The Coast Guard sets the safety regulations.

I think you and ReckDiver should not dive on any boats without AED's...and I will dive on any boat that I enjoy diving on

Also..when I go mountain biking there will be no AED's around, and real mountain bikers don't care....When I go Kayaking, there are no AEDs around, and no one kayaking cares....
If you do adventure sports, if you see yourself as an adventurer, you will not be choosing your trip by presence of AED's...However, if you are someone that might be better off with one of those "alert necklaces" ( Help, I've fallen and I can't get up" ), then the seeking of a dive boat with an AED may make sense. I would still say that the smarter course of action would be either changing your fitness, your skill level, or choosing NOT to dive.

I'd like to hear your views after you've been a victim.

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Leaving the remaining divers to drift is standard protocol in West Palm by most operators. There simply can't be a recall on drift dives.

That can't work in many locations. Here in Belize it could be very dangerous for divers to be left in the water, as other than in a few honey pot places there aren't that many boats. And marine radios are used by few boats/operators, for the simple reason that they rarely survive the climate for more than a few months. We mostly use cell phones, which have the major disadvantage that you can't send out a general broadcast. Further out at sea, on the way to the atolls for example, the only communication method that may work (and that isn't reliable) is a satellite phone.

 

[jar546]

According to Pura vida ( a Dive shop that books Narcosis), there is one boat in Palm Beach that DOES have a AED, and that is Narcosis.

Also.....The Coast Guard sets the safety regulations.

I think you and ReckDiver should not dive on any boats without AED's...and I will dive on any boat that I enjoy diving on

Also..when I go mountain biking there will be no AED's around, and real mountain bikers don't care....When I go Kayaking, there are no AEDs around, and no one kayaking cares....
If you do adventure sports, if you see yourself as an adventurer, you will not be choosing your trip by presence of AED's...However, if you are someone that might be better off with one of those "alert necklaces" ( Help, I've fallen and I can't get up" ), then the seeking of a dive boat with an AED may make sense. I would still say that the smarter course of action would be either changing your fitness, your skill level, or choosing NOT to dive.

That has to be one of the most ignorant statements I have ever heard. I am truly disappointed in your attitude. I thought more highly of you.

There are so many variables to the causes of death and reasons behind a cardiac disrrhythmia it is difficult to say that fitness level is the clear answer. Of course fitness level is a major factor but not the only one. There are plenty of people in great shape that have a sudden dysrhythmia with no other signs or symptoms leading up to the event.

 

[PfcAJ]

Why have o2? You could change your fitness, skill level, or choose not to dive to reduce your chances of getting bent...

Dragging an AED with you while you kayak, mountainbike, climb, parachute, etc is a different matter than having an AED on a boat... I would raise a serious eyebrow to a dive op that didn't carry o2 in this day and age. I'd eventually like to see AEDs become as common as o2 kits, esp as price goes down and awareness goes up.

 

[TSandM]

I think having an AED on a cruise ship makes sense -- the population on such ships is heavily skewed toward older people, and there is no selection for people who are fit or well. On the other hand, the majority of people on dive boats aren't elderly (although they are getting older) and most are people who can at least carry dive gear (which is a fitness test a lot of cruise clients couldn't pass). When you are trying to decide what safety equipment is mandatory for an activity or location, it makes sense to aim your investment toward what is most likely to be used. Oxygen makes a ton of sense on a dive boat, because it is first aid for DCS or DCI, and also may well be necessary for near-drowning patients. A defibrillator is only going to be useful in the rare case of someone who has a primary arrhythmia as the cause of their arrest, because there is nothing you can do on the boat to treat the cause. That said, in those cases, it might well be life-saving . . . but for any given boat, how many such cases are there per year?

I think it's a nice feature, if a prosperous dive operation wants to invest in it. I think I'd have a hard time mandating it.

 

[danvolker]

That has to be one of the most ignorant statements I have ever heard. I am truly disappointed in your attitude. I thought more highly of you.

There are so many variables to the causes of death and reasons behind a cardiac disrrhythmia it is difficult to say that fitness level is the clear answer. Of course fitness level is a major factor but not the only one. There are plenty of people in great shape that have a sudden dysrhythmia with no other signs or symptoms leading up to the event.

Maybe it sounds ignorant, if the activity of Diving was something for the 99% majority of the masses.

That is NOT how I see diving.
I got into diving in 1972 as an adventure sport.
At the same time, I was a ski racer specializing in downhill and GS. In the late 70's I added white water kayaking and hang gliding. I taught myself how to kayak and how to handglide from reading some books on it, and this is how I learned to Speedskate rollerblade, the first year rollerblades cameout …..
Mountain biking just came naturally.
The point being, there are those of us that do want adventure, and we seek it out. The people that like real adventure sports, look at the challenge and the danger, and they determine for themselves, what the best way is to enjoy the activity. We figure out how to be safe for ourselves, and what safety gear we need. We figure this out. Not the government.......I do not want some pencil neck geek bureaucrat telling me what safety gear I need for ANY adventure sport I engage in.


If suddenly we heard that an under water pyramid had been discovered off of Mona island, in a remote part of the Mona passage...and in our window of opportunity to dive this site, only a small local fishing boat could be used....I would see this as an “ultimate adventure dive”.
If a diver was to tell me I should not go on this trip without the fishing boat having an AED,or a team of doctors standing by, I would not concern myself with their opinion, because they are a different type of diver...they are NOT an adventure diver.
Whether they are a yuppie diver, or a dependant diver, whatever they are, I am thrilled they want to enjoy diving, but I would be pissed if they try to mandate their highly dependent sense of support to all dives I might want to engage in.


Today, AED's are expensive. Boat operators are forced to charge low rates, so that divers will be able to afford to go out every week. Margins are slim. AED's could be a severe hardship for some boats—boats which really are great dive operations. This is not much of an issue to Palm Beach boats...if the Coast Guard mandated it, they could all afford this, and would all have the AED's.

In the entire state of florida though,I am sure several boats would be severely pressed to handle this cost. The reality is that there are new costs every week for a diveboat, always a repair, always a cost not planned on, and there is no end in sight. I don't want to mandate this as a potential hardship on boats.... If some boats like Narcosis want to pay for the AED and the training for the crew, fine....apparently most divers don't give a hoot about this, as it's been almost 8 months since the crew got trained to use the AED, and NO groundswell of diver interest has shown that any of the divers in this area care at all about which boats have this, and which don't.


So I would be happy to help spread the word about which boats have AED's, as new boats add the AED to their boat assets....but I would be 100% against mandating that all boats have this.
We don't need to be saved from ourselves, and we don't need to be forced into doing what someone else decides is safe for us. This should be personal responsibility.


And any time I ever wanted O2 to be on the boat, I brought my own! ( not saying I have a problem with the tiny cost of a boat having O2 aboard....just saying, it is SO EASY for a diver to have their own O2, that if this is important to them,then why RELY on others for it!

 

[dumpsterDiver]

I think having an AED on a cruise ship makes sense -- the population on such ships is heavily skewed toward older people, and there is no selection for people who are fit or well. On the other hand, the majority of people on dive boats aren't elderly (although they are getting older) and most are people who can at least carry dive gear (which is a fitness test a lot of cruise clients couldn't pass). When you are trying to decide what safety equipment is mandatory for an activity or location, it makes sense to aim your investment toward what is most likely to be used. Oxygen makes a ton of sense on a dive boat, because it is first aid for DCS or DCI, and also may well be necessary for near-drowning patients. A defibrillator is only going to be useful in the rare case of someone who has a primary arrhythmia as the cause of their arrest, because there is nothing you can do on the boat to treat the cause. That said, in those cases, it might well be life-saving . . . but for any given boat, how many such cases are there per year?

I think it's a nice feature, if a prosperous dive operation wants to invest in it. I think I'd have a hard time mandating it.

How would a mandate develop for such a thing? First they would have to be relatively common and since some operators feel they are necessary and others do not, then I would think that a successful lawsuit against a boat who lost a diver (with the presumption that the AED would have potentially averted the death) might make insurance carriers take another look at the situation.

I could see that the market and the insurance carriers would be the vehicle to make AED's more common (or maybe required) rather than a government mandate.

Also, I could envision some forward looking professional or trade associations might make the device mandatory for membership as well.

As for Dan's latest Volkerisms.... now scuba is a wild adventure sport? That may have been true 30 years ago, but I swear recreational bowlers look more fit than a typical load of scuba customers on the local boats...LOL.

His suggestion that EVERYONE bring their own oxygen on a charter boat is as silly as it is impractical. I'll ignore the rest of the "-isms"..

 

[Reck Diver]

How would a mandate develop for such a thing? First they would have to be relatively common and since some operators feel they are necessary and others do not, then I would think that a successful lawsuit against a boat who lost a diver (with the presumption that the AED would have potentially averted the death) might make insurance carriers take another look at the situation.

I could see that the market and the insurance carriers would be the vehicle to make AED's more common (or maybe required) rather than a government mandate.

Also, I could envision some forward looking professional or trade associations might make the device mandatory for membership as well.

As for Dan's latest Volkerisms.... now scuba is a wild adventure sport? That may have been true 30 years ago, but I swear recreational bowlers look more fit than a typical load of scuba customers on the local boats...LOL.

His suggestion that EVERYONE bring their own oxygen on a charter boat is as silly as it is impractical. I'll ignore the rest of the "-isms"..

As far as AED's being cost prohibitive, it seems one can be had for less than it costs to outfit one diver.

I never thought of myself as a wild, thrill seeking adrenalin junkie..... Actually I find diving quite relaxing. I take whatever steps I can to ensure my safety and the safety of my guests. In the case of the AED; not having one on board does not increase the thrill of diving, it merely compromises safety. It does speak volumes of one's judgement though. I know that there are some out there that want to think of themselves as great explorers and in their own eyes are just one lucky break away from a major discovery. Perhaps even thinking they can have there name in the company of the "Robert Ballards" of the world. I never actually believed people thought this way, but I recently received a copy of a promo piece about an upcoming dive trip out of Key West. The Deepwater Exploration Charter; Supposedly departing Key West this Sunday, for a week of seeking glory and adventure. I thought is was a joke, in fact I'm still not sure it's an actual event, but never the less it shows that mindset. To be truthful, I laughed so hard I may have even peed a little while I read it.

 

[dumpsterDiver]

As far as AED's being cost prohibitive, it seems one can be had for less than it costs to outfit one diver.

I never thought of myself as a wild, thrill seeking adrenalin junkie..... Actually I find diving quite relaxing. I take whatever steps I can to ensure my safety and the safety of my guests. In the case of the AED; not having one on board does not increase the thrill of diving, it merely compromises safety. It does speak volumes of one's judgement though. I know that there are some out there that want to think of themselves as great explorers and in their own eyes are just one lucky break away from a major discovery. Perhaps even thinking they can have there name in the company of the "Robert Ballards" of the world. I never actually believed people thought this way, but I recently received a copy of a promo piece about an upcoming dive trip out of Key West. The Deepwater Exploration Charter; Supposedly departing Key West this Sunday, for a week of seeking glory and adventure. I thought is was a joke, in fact I'm still not sure it's an actual event, but never the less it shows that mindset. To be truthful, I laughed so hard I may have even peed a little while I read it.

I heard Dan was the guest divemaster...... Sorry, I had to throw that one out there...

 

[danvolker]

As for Dan's latest Volkerisms.... now scuba is a wild adventure sport? That may have been true 30 years ago, but I swear recreational bowlers look more fit than a typical load of scuba customers on the local boats...LOL.

Each boat taking divers out, has people looking for different levels of adventure....the ones taking spearfisherman out, have a level of adventure they demand very different from the "adventure" of the typical diver of today--the ones you are generalizing about.....A bunch of good spearos shooting cobia may very well have four to six 8 to 10 foot bull sharks posturing aggressively throughout the last half of their dive..... Most here would NOT equate that with bowling.

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As far as AED's being cost prohibitive, it seems one can be had for less than it costs to outfit one diver.

I never thought of myself as a wild, thrill seeking adrenalin junkie..... Actually I find diving quite relaxing. I take whatever steps I can to ensure my safety and the safety of my guests. In the case of the AED; not having one on board does not increase the thrill of diving, it merely compromises safety.

My personal feeling is that the dive buddies I have..the people I dive with, have essentially zero chance of needing an AED..it would be a waste. If you are taking guests out that are likely to spend lots of time in the care of the local cardiac specialist, then sure, you need an AED on your boat.... Maybe I am just a lot pickier about who I will buddy with than you are. My point was that I don't need the AED, I don't want the boats I use, to be forced to buy something that none of the people I dive with need.... This getting to the concept of "mandating".
If you are taking out people really in danger of a cardiac event, you really DO need to be planning safety measures like an AED on any boat you book on. Personally, those are not the people I am diving with, and they should not even be on the same boat, because the dive sites WE will like will have big currents, and challenges that would be foolish for the cardiac challenged to be dealing with. Of course, it would be poor judgement for you to take a person likely to have a cardiac event, into a really challenging current or dive site...the AED as a solution to having medically challenged divers with you is an inferior solution to keeping these divers out of the water.