NASE Open Water Certification

[aacavalier]

I know that it has been a while since anyone has posted on this thread, however, I think it's in need of an update. I can tell you that I have had experience with agencies such as SSI, NAUI and PADI. I have recently made the decision to join NASE as an Instructor. They have restructured their training program and actually approach dive training in a more practical manner. They focus on proper dive techniques rather than just the typical "can you just do a particular skill". They have redefined the term "mastery of skills" by ensuring that students can do these skills not only properly, but in a neutral/ horizontal position and be able to do them repeatedly, when asked and without unnecessary stress or significant error. I am proud to have made this decision and look forward to training many new NASE divers!

 

[danvolker]

Hey guys,

Can some of you tell me about NASE. I have heard of PADI but can someone explain NASE to me? Also is a Casio G-Shock a good watch for a beginner diver? The difference between NASE and PADI Open Water certification?

I spent some time with several of the top NASE people in the last year, and got some first hand exposure to their training styles.... If I had to provide a quick "sterotype" for you.... I would say that NASE is much like PADI or NAUI with some GUE elements of mandated skills accomplishments forced on each student... I found it to be exactly the mix I like to see, in that certain skills can not be ignored....While a PADI or NAUI instructor is often going to "mandate" the key skills because they are a good instructor, NASE trys to accomplish this by both good instructor and less leeway in eacyh course.
In any event, whether PADI, NAUI, NASE, OR EVEN GUE, choice of who your instructor will be is always going to be the most important choice for the new student-this will usually determine how well they will be able to learn.

 

[Zen Diving Inc.]

... Didn't realize this was so old of a thread, my comments were not necessary.

 

[The Chairman]

I am a NASE Instructor here in the Keys. When people ask to know more about it, my usual quip is "They don't make me wear a snorkel!" While that's certainly true, I really like it for a lot of other reasons:

Competency vs Mastery. Most other agencies present their training as merely a series of skills that need to be mastered. Clear your mask half way, clear your mask all the way, pull the mask off and put it on... ad nauseum. The instructors run through a panoply of useful skills both in the pool and in open water. NASE instructors teach to competency. That means while we still go through the same panoply of skills in the pool, we actually run our OW dives as OW dives. We're not going to bore you by running each student through each skill drill while all the pretty fishes pass you by. I want to see how you DIVE. What's your trim like? Are you controlling your buoyancy efficiently? Are you remembering to clear your mask and is it foggy? Since you've planned the dive, how are you managing your air, your depth and your time? I'm not going to hold your hand here.

Mid Water Competency: The funniest thing I saw this past week was a diver who had to settle to the bottom every time she cleared her mask. How whack is that? Unfortunately, she was taught while kneeling and she never made the transition to doing it mid water and horizontally at that. NASE requires these skills to be done mid water and in fact, you have to show that you can stop and turn mid water without using your hands. I actually take this to the extreme and never teach a single skill on knees. Nope, everything in the pool is taught and learned mid water and it's simply not that hard.

FUN: NASE is dedicated to putting the FUN back into the fundamentals of diving. Since we aren't going through a series of skills during our OW dive we get to see the things we are diving to see. Sure, we're going to figure out our SAC and work on buddy skills, trim and buoyancy, but we are actually accomplishing the goals we wanted to learn diving for.

It's funny, but when this question was asked, NASE was largely irrelevant in the diving world. Thanks to Scott Evans and the rest of the gang at NASE, it now stands for competency and fun. I like that.

 

[Zen Diving Inc.]

Competency vs Mastery. Most other agencies present their training as merely a series of skills that need to be mastered. Clear your mask half way, clear your mask all the way, pull the mask off and put it on... ad nauseum. The instructors run through a panoply of useful skills both in the pool and in open water.

Sure, as it should be IMO. Skills mastered is such an interesting phrase, its always up to the instructors opinion of what mastery is. Sometimes as good as the individual can can be, is presumed to be mastered. At least for whats expected at that skill level. "OW".

NASE instructors teach to competency. That means while we still go through the same panoply of skills in the pool, we actually run our OW dives as OW dives. We're not going to bore you by running each student through each skill drill while all the pretty fishes pass you by.

Competency vs Mastery= Acceptable and lowered expectations of students performance.
Thats how I read it, though I believe in an average "OW" class Competency & Mastery find themselves to be the same. I just find the term interesting... Its like a diver saying he is an advanced diver since he just finished the advanced diver course... Merely word play.
Hey we make it easy and fun no worries...lol.

I want to see how you DIVE. What's your trim like? Are you controlling your buoyancy efficiently? Are you remembering to clear your mask and is it foggy? Since you've planned the dive, how are you managing your air, your depth and your time? I'm not going to hold your hand here

As do I, except I still do skills in OW dives... Doesn't really take much time to go thru the skills with say 4 people. Especially if your trained them right in the first place. First dive on your knees doing X# of skills then play. Second Dive X# of skills then play. 3,4,5,6 however many you do they should be done mid water starting in a horizontal position.

So do you spend more time in the pool??? How many times do you have a student remove and replace his/her mask in your "OW" course? Just trying to gauge how hard you push the skills.

Mid Water Competency: The funniest thing I saw this past week was a diver who had to settle to the bottom every time she cleared her mask. How whack is that?

That is unfortunate... Your reasoning for why, probably is correct, but that is the instructors fault and has little to do with agencies. We know the baby step method, the by the book method and how it gets done sometimes. I'm a NAUI instructor, so I don't have to play that game. I have a lot of leeway. Mid-Water training is absolutely important. We agree on this! Must be nice to have a pool that deep and such awesome students that naturally have good buoyancy :sarcasm: so you can just start doing skills mid-water... Truthfully i'm impressed, and naturally would like to see you run an OW course just as you described. I sincerely mean that. I doubt that timing would ever work...(i'm really not being sarcastic) Maybe you can tell me about it at DEMA, I'll buy you a beer.

Unfortunately, she was taught while kneeling and she never made the transition to doing it mid water and horizontally at that. NASE requires these skills to be done mid water and in fact, you have to show that you can stop and turn mid water without using your hands. I actually take this to the extreme and never teach a single skill on knees. Nope, everything in the pool is taught and learned mid water and it's simply not that hard.

 

[The Chairman]

Sure, as it should be IMO. Skills mastered is such an interesting phrase, its always up to the instructors opinion of what mastery is.

I fully agree and it's nice to see an agency that quantifies "neutral buoyancy" and "competency" as NASE has.

Competency vs Mastery= Acceptable and lowered expectations of students performance. /snip/... Merely word play.

You're missing the point. Mastery is the ability to demonstrate the skill at an acceptable level. Competency is knowing when to use that skill and demonstrating mastery through the dive. At the root of this re-invention of NASE is a commercial diving academy. They not only have to show they understand the concept of diving, they have to actually assemble and weld at depth. I want to see my students clearing their mask a foot off the reef without losing trim or buoyancy, not because I have asked them, but because they know to. It's not word play; it's an entirely different approach of in situ teaching.

First dive on your knees doing X# of skills then play.

But why ever have them on their knees? Here in the Keys, it just irks the crap out of me to see divers KNEELING on my reef. I even see some of them STANDING on my reef clearing their mask or adjusting something or other. It's just bad precedent to ever have them on their knees as they don't discriminate when it's appropriate or not. However, if you work from the top => down, instead of the bottom => up, you'll find that your students have far more time being neutral, so it's not nearly as difficult. In addition, since they are in control of their buoyancy from the start, you'll find that you even have better control of your class.

So do you spend more time in the pool??? How many times do you have a student remove and replace his/her mask in your "OW" course? Just trying to gauge how hard you push the skills.

I probably spend a bit more time in the pool, but not much. I just set the standards for buoyancy and trim high from the beginning and I see my students accommodating them easily. Here's my trick... Monkey see, monkey do. To be real, the first introduction to mask skills is in the kiddie pool. I have them fill their mask with water and while standing with their torso out of the water, they learn to talk with a mask full of water. Once they are comfortable with a mask full of water, the rest is EASY. I tell a joke, they make a snort and walla: their mask is empty. We then float on the surface until they have mastered that skill.

Then we head to the 6 ft water area. My students are told to pretend that the bottom is poison so they can't touch it. Rather than do fin pivots and teach them how to get off the bottom, I teach them how to descend gently and never touch the bottom. At this point, all skills, including the dreaded BC doff and don, are presented and accomplished mid water. Your students will only match your expectations. If you accept incompetency, they will gladly oblige. If you allow them to wallow on the floor of the pool, they'll do that all day long. Every minute they are on their knees simply re-enforces the concept that this is acceptable. If you teach that it's unacceptable from the very beginning, you'll find you won't have to un-teach that tendency. I can say that I am not nearly as zealous in this respect as I have seen some instructors be with touching the sides of a pool (actually hitting a student's hand) or in having a mask on a fore head (which I have seen swatted off). I do show the proper way to touch IF YOU HAVE TO and that is with one finger. Nope, they don't get to use that finger again, they have to use another finger, so they get to screw up ten times... but they never ever get to kneel.

Must be nice to have a pool that deep and such awesome students that naturally have good buoyancy :sarcasm: so you can just start doing skills mid-water...

Most of the training is done in the six foot area. Rather than being a hardass, I am actually known as a very gentle and patient instructor. Quite often, I get sent the Nervous Nellies who have various issues with fear and water. So you know, I also teach my students to frog kick and they can buddy breathe for at least 50 meters while maintaining buoyancy and trim. yes, I keep it light and make it into a game for them. All I need is four hours in the pool. Six is better divided over two days, but I'll take four if it's a class of two to four. Although I am no longer a NAUI instructor, I learned a lot of this in my NAUI ITC. No not all, but a lot.

 

[The Chairman]

BTW, my most often repeated concept in class: "You're not a boat. You're not an anchor. You're a fish." I use the appropriate hand signs every time I say it, so that my students understand the combo under water.

 

[Zen Diving Inc.]

Netdoc,

Thx for the reply.

You're missing the point. Mastery is the ability to demonstrate the skill at an acceptable level. Competency is knowing when to use that skill and demonstrating mastery through the dive..SNIP>>.it's an entirely different approach of in situ teaching.

Im all for improving diver training! Your initial comments prompted my response- You say potato I say Potato...

com·pe·tence(k

m

p

-t

ns)n.1.a. The state or quality of being adequately or well qualified; ability. See Synonyms at ability.
b. A specific range of skill, knowledge, or ability.

​

mas·ter·y(m

s

t

-r

)n. pl. mas·ter·ies​

1.

Possession of consummate skill.

Both agencies require competency since both have to master many skills. Is this not true? When we say "Mastery" in this sense we are not talking about and art form. Only that you can or cannot do a skill required.
​

But why ever have them on their knees? Here in the Keys, it just irks the crap out of me to see divers KNEELING on my reef. I even see some of them STANDING on my reef clearing their mask or adjusting something or other. It's just bad precedent to ever have them on their knees as they don't discriminate when it's appropriate or not.

I never said anything about touching the reef. Look at where you are and where Im at. Here in Palm beach I have the captain drop us in the sand 10-25 yards from the reef then drift over.

Its seems we have somethings in common. We both hold our training agencies methodologies in hi-regard. Im not re-inventing the wheel, just rolling with it.

 

[The Chairman]

Both agencies require competency

Do they? Does your agency state anywhere that a diver must be competent? They just might and I don't remember one way or the other. All too often I see the disconnect where the diver knows HOW to do the skill, but they don't know WHEN to do the skill. You might have mastered stepping on the brakes, but you aren't a competent driver until you do so at an appropriate time. Most agencies go through a regimen of serial skills on their training dives, many of which the students do on their knees "off the reef". I remember a diver on a boat off of Boynton beach. It was their first dive after certification and he was kind of lost. He followed my students and me as we explored the reef. His first remark on the boat was "That was an Open Water class? Why wasn't mine like that???" He even accused me of not doing any skills, but in reality we did quite a bit. Talking to him a bit more and he was at a loss as to what to do on dive that didn't have any skills to master or demonstrate. You'll never catch my students kneeling in the sand doing one skill after another. We dive. We learn as we dive. We evolve as we dive. It's "In Situ" or situational development. They learn to dive by diving. Heck, we already mastered skills in the pool. I want to see them dive now.

FWIW, I'm glad you don't touch the reef. Do you touch the sand? How about the critters that live in the sand? I used to teach (shudder) discover Scuba for a shop here in the Keys. NASE has since said "no" to that, and that's fine by me. Still, they never touched the bottom of the pool or of the ocean. I remember one of my students pointing to a group kneeling in a circle in the sand at French Reef and making the "What the ...?" sign. He and his wife were aghast that they were resting on the bottom. Why? I instilled a respect for the bottom into them from the start. If they'll keep off the sand, you know they'll keep off of the reef.

As for having things in common: I agree. We have far, far more in common than we don't. Who knows? This might challenge you to teach from the top down too! Then we'll have even more in common. I remember from my ITC that your best class is always the next one. Don't stop evolving how you train divers. It's good for you and them.

 

[aacavalier]

If I may ..... Please allow me to explain the NASE approach to diving skills:

1. Skills are divided into "sub-skills" which means that each skill requires certain steps to perform the overall skill (yes, I know that you already know that!) Just because you can go through the steps to do a particular skill does not mean that you have "mastered" that skill. It also does not mean that you are fully competent with doing that skill. It just simply means that you can do the skill.

2. Divers, during training and during a checkout dive, are taught to kneel down and do the "skills checkoff". However, this is doing them absolutely no good. I have spent countless dives swimming around watching other instructors run through skill sets with checkout OW students. They do the skills, then go for a swim. These students spend the entire dive finning like crazy! They were NEVER taught neutral buoyancy! Yes, they were taught a "fin pivot", however, that is not being taught neutral buoyancy! That is just simply teaching you how to add a little air into your BCD and watch yourself "rise and fall" with each breath! They are never taught how to regulate your breathing or how to properly add or dump air from your BCD with changing depths! And before anyone makes any comments regarding depths of a pool, you can accomplish this in as little as 6 ft of water. So NO, you don't need a 15 ft deep pool. You start in 3-4 ft and work your way down (but I'm not going to get into the specifics here since I don't want to type that much).

3. NASE requires the following for a diver to be considered "competent" and have "mastered" a skill:
a. The skill must be done ON DEMAND. This means that it's done immediately when the instructor signals for the skill to be done. The student cannot hesitate. Hesitation means that the student is still not 100% comfortable with the skill. (A dive buddy isn't going to turn as ask "hey, are you ready for me to kick your mask?" It's just going to happen!)
b. The student must be able to do the skill REPEATEDLY. "Hey! Great job student! You cleared your mask once!" Sorry folks, but this is not "mastery" or "competency"! Practice does not make perfect! Perfect practice makes perfect! If your student gets "panicky" when you ask them to clear a mask for a second time, then they are not 100% comfortable!
c. The skill must be done WITHOUT SIGNIFICANT ERROR. I know that some people may debate on this one, but it's not that difficult. Was the overall objective met? Was it done in a safe manner? Did the student appear to be comfortable? Did the student fumble around while doing the skill?
d. The skill must be done WITHOUT UNDUE STRESS. Yes, we know that there will be some level of "stress" involved. But here's the question.... Did the student appear to be calm or nervous? They can't talk underwater, but a person's eyes speak very loudly as well as body language!

Keep in mind, that NASE requires skill sets to be done in the horizontal neutral position! That's right! No kneeling, sitting or standing! Let's face it, when you are diving a wreck in 100 ft of water and you are exploring the top of the wreck at 60 feet, you have nothing to kneel or stand on to clear your mask or to take care of any problems! You have to remain neutrally buoyant! So if this is "real life diving", why not train these divers properly! "Practice like you play!" There is no excuse for "sub-standard training".

I have had experience with SSI, NAUI and PADI. I possess certifications from each of them. There is a reason why I have decided to become a NASE Instructor. My full time job is a Law Enforcement Officer and Instructor. Training MUST be realistic and practical. NASE has exceeded MY requirements for a realistic and practical dive training agency!