Diving to 200' and Beyond

[Bennno]

• Stupid is as stupid does. I'm not going to respect stupid, no matter how lucky they are.

• Moreover, I don't respect those who justify others being stupid.

In Germany there is no speed limit on the highway, kids are allowed to drink beer at 16, the French dive deeper and in Amsterdam you can buy pot in a store. Some people are still doing ok even though they are being stupid.

 

[Storker]

Some people are still doing ok even though they are being stupid.

Sure. It's all a question of how big a risk you think is acceptable. More people are doing ok when they aren't being stupid.

 

[Bennno]

Sure. It's all a question of how big a risk you think is acceptable. More people are doing ok when they aren't being stupid.

I agree. But as always, were is the line and who gets to draw it.

 

[Storker]

The individual diver draws the line themself, that's the only option.

However, that doesn't mean that e.g. NetDoc or I shouldn't be allowed to point out what we consider bovine stupid behavior, just because more people have survived doing bovine stupid stuff than there are people who have died doing bovine stupid stuff. And even though CMAS and BSAC historically have "allowed" (deliberate quotes here, because who can enforce the "rules" underwater?) deeper diving with singles, on air, than e.g. PADI or GUE does today, it's not quite certain that it's particularly smart to go to 60m carrying a single filled with air.

I certified fairly recently, so without the benefit of that fantastic old-school training (no BCD, no mixed gases, lower safety standards), but I know quite a few of those who did. And those among them who are serious about their diving, have four-digit logged dives and have been to 50-60m on air have all basically abandoned the type of practice which some people in this thread seem to think is quite OK as long as you have this great old-school certification. I wonder why?

 

[Bennno]

Well nobody said, do it on a single tank. Just for the record. I haven't done anything on air deeper than 45m/145' in 10 years or so. I don't think a bounce with a pony bottle for bail out is that stupid... not a great idea but not out of the ordinary.
And some of the old school instructors would at least fail some stundents... does that even exist anymore, unless you doing GUE training?

 

[The Chairman]

Pete, you're way too Americanized. If there ever were a "Hair Splitting Specialty" course, it would have been offered by PADI, not CMAS

It was a discussion about CMAS standards, so I let the fault lay precisely where it was found: with the poster. I've seen standards used to justify a lot of crap and I don't blame the standards.

 

[The Chairman]

And some of the old school instructors would at least fail some stundents... does that even exist anymore, unless you doing GUE training?

I have failed students. It's rare. Most of the students getting certified do not have the buoyancy and trim to be passed in my class. That would be retroactive to the seventies. I don't buy that training was superior back then. I saw people kicking the crap out of the reef then too. It was a longer, far less efficient class back then, but not superior.

 

[The Chairman]

In Germany there is no speed limit on the highway,

This is a common misconception. Stupid drivers get ticketed just for being stupid over there. Try driving on the Autobahn with a set of bald tires.

 

[beester]

Overhead and deep (in this case 55ishm on air)is not the same, not even close. In an OW dive as described by Stoo, you can abort the dive, a cave dive you can't really abort or go up a few Meters, all you can do is swim back... and the way back might be long. As you know from earlier discussions, I'm more conservatives than you when it comes to cave diving.

Yes I know that you are more conservative than me in cave diving (with GUE buddies)... and you might be right (coming back to the "it's not necessary safe because I made it out alive, I might just got lucky")... Something I'm evaluating from cave dive to cave dive. But back on topic:

For me a 55m dive is no longer a bounce dive (5-10min at depth on air I did enough but it no longer tickles my willy), so the overhead for me is as real on such a dive (say a 30min dive at avg depth of 55m) as is a cave, skipping an hour of deco will damage me definitely. Of course the example of the french lady probably is a bounce dive... so yes your milleage may vary, but still doing that solo without any real backup in gas or contingency in equipment is too risky for me no matter what her experience and cert level is.

This were I believe you wrong. You consider the actual 'malfunction' of the mask or another part of the gear to be cause of the accident, I see the cause elsewhere.


In this story, I don't see the freeze of the reg as the problem, I see him as the cause of the problem. Even though he was trimix trained he did not manage a 'standard' gear issue on a fairly easy dive. IMHO, you can't fault the dive profile or the reg... people (especially since 'tec' has become so hip) take deep, cave and rebreather diving way too lightly and I feel that people are not willing to 'pay their dues' an learn diving in easy conditions for long enough. I see people with ***** trim and buoyancy in caves on scooters and I see people with horrible basics doing dives with 2 stages in quarry pounds.
So the problem to me is, that too many people start deco and cave training too early, before they have gathered some 'normal' dive experience.... now, if you experience a leaky mask for the first time on your 100s dive at 70m or in a cave.... I think that where the problem lies...

You are right, very right. Of course the cause of the incident in your example is not the freeflow as such, it's just the trigger, which caused a avalange of things happening. Basically (without being able to look into the guys head) his bandwith to solve this issue was not sufficient, so he punched the ticket and bailed out (in a cave he would be dead). Why his bandwith to manage the issue was not sufficient I do not know (lack of GOOD training, lack of experience,... ) I've had a freeflow while descending on a cold deepish wreck (48m) and it's a none issue... because I closed left valve (it was my backup freeflowing) signed to my buddies... we decided to further descend to get out of current (were about 10m above the top of the wreck)... waited for a moment and I reopened the valve, freeflow was stopped. Checked gas, recalculated turn pressure and went on our merry way. If it had restarted to freeflow that would have been the call to end the dive.

Unfortunately a lot of people haven't learned to stop and solve little issues first before they get out of hand. I only got in touch with that during technical training, not CMAS. And this after I had some nasty surprises myself... everybody is human.

Let me flesh out 1 example where I was present. A CMAS instructor was conducting a cert dive with a candidate **** diver on a salt water shore dive in winter. This test would be a 40m-15m ascend+ deploy smb (which is both in france with FFESM and in Belgium a depth at which exercises are done). I was on site and had to cancel my dive because just before entering the water I ripped a wrist seal. I saw them yelling for help, and dropped my set and swam too them, towed the instructor (with the help of the **** star student) to shore and started first aid. Ambulance was called and he ended up in a compression chamber but made it out alright.

What had happend? Stress, forgotten mask, current and finally unmanaged freeflow. The instructor had forgotten his mask at home, so he got a mask from another diver. The mask didn't fit right but he only noticed when they were already underwater. So he kept clearing his mask, they were swimming to depth against current so the combined effect of his effort swiming against current while clearing his mask constantly in 4°C water caused him to start overbreathing himself. He didn't turn the dive because he felt peer pressure at that moment, calling the dive ment there wouldn't be another occasion soon to do the test he would not be able to examin the student the next month. They continued (with the student unaware of the instructors problems)... at 40m (after swimming for about 10minutes against current, constantly flooding and clearing his mask, heavy breathing), his primary started freeflowing. The student saw this happening and donated her octopus, he took it over, started breathing from it but thought he couldn't get any breath from it (he had already so overbreathed that he was hyperventilating)... so this his when his mind got overloaded...and he just punched the ticket... fully inflated his wing... and off he went. The student tried to grab his legs and tried to deflate her jacket to reduce ascend rate but they went up like a polaris rocket.

So in the end what caused this... yes you are right... human error, the mask was just the trigger. But it caused a snowball effect of other issues. If he had just paused for a moment, realised he needed to solve this minor issue of a leaking mask or call the dive, nothing would have happened. But it's a lot of times like this.

As for that lady, if she whats to nail down to 60m stay for 1min and does a 'normal' multi-level dive, I wouldn't recommend doing that but it worries my less when someone with 1000 dives does that, than some dude with a 100 dives doing an 70 min trimix dive to 60m. There is no substitute for experience and talent... good training gives you the tools to learn but it doesn't make you a good diver.

Maybe his makes people understand better why I think it's a problem when people, especially instructors, write stuff like: strarting deco training at 30 dives is OK or that any kind of cave diving in not a big deal.

I think both are basicaly stupid... I hate zero to hero courses as much as you do, and you are right that experience (next to training) is important. However that doesn't make this lady immune even after a 1000 dives. Most cmas divers I know with a 1000 dives behind their belt, don't care about the "alure of the deep" anymore... unless there is something to see... right then they do. Having a very experienced lady saying "30m dives are baby-dives" says something and it rings an alarm bell with me (if this is what she said of course... all hearsay). Yes she's certified to do so but being certified doesn't mean it's not stupid (I'm too... I can go to 90+m on air and be totally within my CMAS cert limit but I think you would agree that doing that would be a very risky and foolish endevaour)

Sure. It's all a question of how big a risk you think is acceptable. More people are doing ok when they aren't being stupid.

THIS!

I agree. But as always, were is the line and who gets to draw it.

Everybody has to make up his/her own mind of course. There is no scuba-police... and what someone finds an unacceptable risk someone else finds acceptable.

I think the only time I would step in is, if an "experienced" diver (like this lady) tells someone who is not yet able to evaluate this risk (a beginning diver) that it's "OK".

 

[dumpsterDiver]

This discussion is interesting. The diver is using trimix, but most everyone ignores this and goes off talking about deep air diving and then goes off topic talking about coldwater regulators and diving air to 175 feet. Not to mention off topic rantings about single tank diving- (when it is clear she has two tanks) . These topics have NOTHING to do with intent of this thread.

Then we get others.. lecturing us about how -even if she does this dive daily and has done it many hundreds of times - it means nothing - she is still taking incredible, irresponsible and STUPID risks.

We go on to the "normalization of deviance" theme and the related discussion about .. just because she has never had an accident- it doesn't mean that she is "SAFE".

I find the atmosphere and attitudes on this forum very difficult to understand.. Aren't these the same people who will supported baited dives for sharks and shark feeding dives and accept and promote these dives? Don't they also make arguments that this type of "shark diving" is actually safe.. why? because there have not been that many accidents...

So she completes the dive hundreds or thousands of times -safely, but this is irrelvant, circumstantial and anecdotal information that can not be considered by any thinking, "modern" diver.

Yet.. baited shark diving is a very responsible and accepted activity, because this type of thrill or excitement is within the norms of behavior. Getting a thrill out of diving deep, while alone and not endangering anyone else is unacceptable and stupid?? I have a hard time accepting other people's opinions about what type of "fun" people should have.

Pay no attention to the topic of the thread.. the moderators allow it to degrade into ANOTHER deep- bounce diving on air with a single tank scenario.