How soon to take AOW after OW?

[redacted]

Thehuth--Im gonna play devils advocate here. Have you considered there is another reason the folks at your LDS are pressuring you into doing your AOW?
I can think of a few non commercial reasons for this.
1)the "local" diving is mostly deeper than you are certified to be taken to
2) Local dive boats don't take OW divers.
3) They feel that where you plan to dive needs you to have more training
4) Your diving is demonstrably marginal and they really feel you NEED to be doing the AOW course.

I'm not saying any of my suggestions are correct but I'd be asking the question as to WHY they are pressuring you to take the next course

Or they just want his $$$.

 

[DevonDiver]

I can think of a few non commercial reasons for this.
1)the "local" diving is mostly deeper than you are certified to be taken to

And what, pray tell, is that certification? Because Open Water sure as hell doesn't come with a depth limit.

This is the fiction pandered by the dive industry. So insidious that even the Pros themselves start believing it...


Sub-standard diving schools sell this notion that c-cards are "diving licenses". They are not. They promote this toxic notion because it is the only way they can sell their courses. It illustrates that their courses do not stand on their own merits educationally.

The diving consumer pays for training. It is the training that matters. If a dive school has no confidence that the consumer will recognize any value in that training, then they will resort to the deception that the c-card itself is the product being purchased. They manufacturer a fictitious demand for the c-card as a 'license'... to manipulate consumer demand and create a smoke-screen that obscures the issue of sub-standard training provision.

A c-card is simply a proof of training. It certifies that, on a given date, the bearer accomplished the necessary performance standards as stated for a given course. Nothing more, nothing less. It is not a "diving license". That is why PADI recreational c-cards do not have limits printed upon them. That is why PADI gives recommendations only - for the sole purpose of assisting the diver in setting their own prudent limits.

Diver competency and comfort are what determines the depth they should dive to, the conditions they should dive in, the equipment they should use. Training has a strong influence on that competency and comfort. A piece of plastic in your wallet has zero influence on that.

I wish the diving consumer would wake up... see the scam for what it is.... and start paying for training... and stop spending their money with the aim to "get a c-card"...

2) Local dive boats don't take OW divers.

It saves having to do risk assessments, if you aren't bothered about your business losing money, I suppose.

3) They feel that where you plan to dive needs you to have more training

As previously asked... what does the AOW course have to do with "more training"?

4) Your diving is demonstrably marginal and they really feel you NEED to be doing the AOW course.

Where they'll take you for 5 experiential, glorified 'fun' dives that have zero training component and there'll be a big difference, because?

I'm not saying any of my suggestions are correct but I'd be asking the question as to WHY they are pressuring you to take the next course

Because certain agencies sell their industry members/centers the myth of the 'loss leader' business model... and the notion that continued diver education (...equipment sales and vacations) is the golden egg that'll claw back some profitability after you've initially sold your students an under-priced, unprofitable, Open Water course...

Desperation is as desperation does...

 

[Johanan]

My personal plan is to get a half dozen dives in. Then I'll do AOW in April or May. Then First Responder in June or July. Then Rescue Diver towards the end of the year.

Your plans sounds prudent, especially where you say, you'd become proficient in basic skills first. IMHO the absolutely most important skill is hovering or ability to stay without moving at any depth of your choice maintaing a balanced position and a flat, horizontal trim. Then proper finning techniques - frog, modified frog, flutter, modified flutter, helicopter turns and back kicks. Find a really good instructor who can properly teach you these basics. The sooner, the better. If he/she can teach you this during an AOW course - fine, why not? But it can be done without a course and certficate in a private tutorship.

 

[DevonDiver]

Your plans sounds prudent, especially where you say, you'd become proficient in basic skills first. IMHO the absolutely most important skill is hovering or ability to stay without moving at any depth of your choice maintaing a balanced position and a flat, horizontal trim. Then proper finning techniques - frog, modified frog, flutter, modified flutter, helicopter turns and back kicks. Find a really good instructor who can properly teach you these basics. The sooner, the better. If he/she can teach you this during an AOW course - fine, why not? But it can be done without a course and certficate in a private tutorship.

I don't quite agree.

Fundamentals... foundations... core skills.... are more than just buoyancy, trim and propulsion.

What is important is that the diver can apply all of their current skills without losing buoyancy control or situational awareness.

The benefit, to a novice diver, of developing proper horizontal trim, is that it encourages proper buoyancy control. Proper horizontal trim eradicates the tendency to compensate for a lack of real neutral buoyancy with propulsion (fin kicking). Without proper trim, divers will never truly master buoyancy control and, over time, sloppy technique becomes an ingrained, insidious habit... hard to break. I've seen dive pros that were terrible in this respect.

There's no need for a novice diver to have a myriad of different propulsion techniques. Varying techniques suit varied needs. A novice diver has few needs. They have time to develop techniques as their diving progresses and their needs increase. Flutter kick is more than sufficient as an open-water propulsion technique. Non-silting kicks become necessary only when diving close to the bottom (i.e photographers) or in overhead environments. However, there is a secondary benefit to Frog Kick... which is that it also (along with trim) encourages divers to perfect their buoyancy. Frog kick doesn't work as a 'bad buoyancy compensation method'... and using it tends to expose weaknesses in buoyancy skill.

 

[NAM001]

My point was sometimes it may be needed but most of the time it isn't required at all. As such, taking the AOW isn't really a matter of necessity but desire and the timing of when to take it is irrelevant.

I dont think we are in dissagreement. Whether the training is of skills benefit to the student is not always the main benefit as some op's require it and that it is a stepping stone to further training. Somethimes a necessary evil of sorts.

 

[DevonDiver]

Whether the training is of skills benefit to the student is not always the main benefit as some op's require it and that it is a stepping stone to further training. Somethimes a necessary evil of sorts.

Not necessary. So just an "evil" then...

 

[NAM001]

Makes me think of an old discussion about boats requiring the AOW card for dives below 60' having to do with insurance, lawsuits, etc. I wonder what difference it really makes legally if someone has an accident at 100' who has AOW as opposed to someone else who doesn't. I know anyone can sue for any reason and each case is judged separately, but I wonder if the card makes much of a difference. Perhaps a lawyer can give some insight?

I believe this is where the taxi service comes in. depending on the state the boat is operating under the boat is responsible for the passengers till leaving the ship in port or only while physically on the boat. As a taxi you are not responsible for the divers qualifications, in a non taxi state yyou are responsible for the divers by being part of the dive package. Much like taking a cab to the bar and getting drunk the cab is not responsible for you being smashed when yo return to the cab , in a taxi state. I dont believe texas is taxi state. They verify that you are qualified for the dive on the boat,,, because till they get back to port,,, you are their responsibility. They track your dives and evaluate if you can still dive more that day. Taxi states the diver is required to do that for them selves. Probably a liability issue with the insurance Co. The boat I used for flower gardens had beer on it. The rule: one drink and you are not diving for the rest of the day. You can drink at the end of day but not before and still dive. I guess they are treated like a bartender to cut you off. When boats take a shop to a site in taxi states, the shop/organizers are responsible for briefings ect. The boats job is to provide transportation to get the boat there and back and responsible for you while physically on the boat. When the boat goes to another spot and the shop says lets go the boat is not responsible whether every one ins on board. Most boats do have some self imposed morality about this and do try to make sure all is onboard and safe to dive whether required to or not. I have been on boats where no check at all is made for cards. I have asked and they say that they get a list of passengers from the shop and the shop is responsible for the certifications of the passengers. I suspect that they are taxi boats. I have been to a shop in destin fla and when asked where the dive was they said the morning boat is booked by mostly new OW 's and the site will be one of 2-3 sites that suit OW divers. Again that is not to say that the group[ that booked the boat did not have their own parameters requested. That gives me the impression that the shop controls the dive location parameters. Granted each shop and boat is different and like instructors not all act to absolute minimum requirements and go beyond, so the line is many times blurred as to whether it is a taxi or non taxi state. The same shop on another day, after diving with them for the week, said they will tell the boat to go to somewhere i had not been before and that the afternoon boat was booked with AOW's. One can make their own conclusions.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

Flutter kick is more than sufficient as an open-water propulsion technique. Non-silting kicks become necessary only when diving close to the bottom (i.e photographers) or in overhead environments. However, there is a secondary benefit to Frog Kick... which is that it also (along with trim) encourages divers to perfect their buoyancy. Frog kick doesn't work as a 'bad buoyancy compensation method'... and using it tends to expose weaknesses in buoyancy skill.

So many new divers are reef killers or kick up massive amounts of silt. Where I dive, you have to be fairly close to the bottom to see stuff. Problem with divers who don't frog kick, they leave a trail of silt wherever they go, even if they have good trim/buoyancy. New divers flutter kicking close to the bottom (as that is where they typically stay) kick up sand that drifts onto the coral as well.

I see the overall issue to be economics. How do diving agencies cater to the largest percentage of the market? This is a business after all. I'd like to see a longer open water training across the board with stricter exit requirements. But such a training agency for recreational divers would probably go out of business fairly quickly. So, I accept the fact that training gets spread over OW, AOW, and some specialties. I'm a big believer in training overall, as I've suffered the consequences of a really bad OW instructor, and I've had to use AOW and specialty courses, as well as trying to dive as much as possible to compensate. Again, it comes down to how good is the instructor who teaches in the classroom, on shore, at the surface, and below the surface to give his/her students a lot of useful skills. Teaching is a lot more to me than just meeting standards (or not violating standards).

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Mostly because it will be a pre-requisite to getting Rescue Diver. It also opens up my limits from 60 feet to 100.

As for the first comment, I don't believe that's any longer true with most agencies ... nor should it be.

As for the second comment ... therein lies the best reason to get in some dives before taking the class.

This topic has been a popular source of conversation on ScubaBoard for many years. And as you can see, it falls into three basic camps ...

1. Take the class immediately after OW, as it's nothing more than a continuation of OW
2. Get in some dives first, so you can get more out of the class
3. Forget AOW and take GUE Fundamentals

I generally fall into Category 2 ... but it really depends on why you want to take the class. My thoughts ...

1. If you take the class immediately after OW, you're likely to be still struggling to get comfortable with the basic skills you "learned" in OW. In most cases you haven't really learned these skills, you've merely demonstrated that you can repeat them under controlled conditions. In other words, you've learned how to learn them. The learning ... as with most things ... comes from repetition. Since most OW students don't do a lot of repetition, having only to demonstrate the skill once while kneeling on the bottom, they really aren't comfortable with the skills at all. This will prove to be an impediment, and a reason why so many people come out of AOW feeling like they didn't really learn anything ... in fact they didn't, because they were too busy concentrating on remembering how to do the basic things they learned in OW class to really focus on the new skills you're supposed to get out of AOW. Of even more concern is that the course makes you think that you are somehow qualified for deeper dives ... and this is a very real safety concern. New divers generally tend to go through their air supply rather quickly. And they haven't really learned anything about air management other than "watch your gauge and end the dive with 500 psi". Even though you're told that the deeper you go the faster you'll drain the tank, it often comes as a surprise to the new diver just how fast you can drain a tank at 4 atmospheres ... 100 feet. Furthermore, with only OW class dives under your belt, it's the rare diver who has anything resembling buoyancy control ... and losing buoyancy control at 100 feet is potentially far more serious than losing it at 40 or 50 feet if you ultimately end up on the surface. I'd have a lot less of an issue with the current thinking that AOW is a follow-on to OW if they'd take out the deep diving component ... but the reality is that new divers are generally driven to notch that 100-foot dive, and it's the most popular reason why people want the class. It's also, to my concern, the wrong reason.
2. Getting in some dives first gives you the benefit of getting comfortable with your basic OW skills before moving on to the next new thing. There's a big difference between knowing something and understanding it, and understanding usually comes from experience. Giving yourself the opportunity to experience those "ah ha" moments at shallower depths and in less challenging conditions often results in having the ability to react to or avoid potentially damaging situations once you put yourself into more challenging ones. It helps clear up mental bandwidth for the new experiences and knowledge that should come from taking any class. Generally speaking, you'll get more out of the new curriculum by being comfortable with what was covered in the previous class. This is, of course, dependent on how the class is taught. Many AOW classes are little more than a repeat of things you were supposed to have learned in OW, but with some new parameters thrown in to cover the different types of environment (i.e. low vis, deep, current, etc). These classes, to my concern, are a waste of time. A well-taught AOW class will really challenge you to improve skills like dive planning, buoyancy control, buddy skills, underwater awareness, and navigation while teaching you how to apply those skills to more challenging environments. That sort of class will only benefit you if you go into it after becoming comfortable with the basics you were introduced to in OW.
3. Fundies is a great class, but it will in no way prepare you for deep diving ... the class is mostly taught at 20-40 feet. It also does not cover navigational skills. It certainly covers some very useful information, such as gas planning, but it's a very narrow focus on building a basic skills platform using specific types of equipment. You will come out of it having gained a great deal of new knowledge and skill sets, but it will in not get you access to those deeper div. Many dive operations won't even recognize the card.

We're all different. We make our choices depending on what we want to do. Each choice presents benefits and drawbacks. No approach is the universal "best" for everybody. Only you can decide which is right for you ....

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Lorenzoid]

. . .

1. Fundies is a great class, but it will in no way prepare you for deep diving ... the class is mostly taught at 20-40 feet. It also does not cover navigational skills. It certainly covers some very useful information, such as gas planning, but it's a very narrow focus on building a basic skills platform using specific types of equipment. You will come out of it having gained a great deal of new knowledge and skill sets, but it will in not get you access to those deeper div. Many dive operations won't even recognize the card.

We're all different. We make our choices depending on what we want to do. Each choice presents benefits and drawbacks. No approach is the universal "best" for everybody. Only you can decide which is right for you ....

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

I was kinda hoping someone would chime in and champion the GUE Fundies course, but nobody really has. To add to what Bob said, after taking Fundies, a diver who previously thought nothing of doing 100-foot dives might give them more reasoned thought in the future. GUE indeed promotes a very specific "system," but if the idea sounds appealing after taking a look at what it entails, it can be a great route. Alas, the card itself is not going to impress a boat operator into taking you to the sites they deem "advanced." However, Fundies could complement the AOW course nicely. Definitely two different animals.