Bungee types - again ;)

[Patoux01]

Fixed loops are nearly identical to the single bungee setup, they just loose the boltsnap.

There's pretty much nothing in common between these 2. They're bungee and hold tanks, but that's about as close as it gets.

 

[Razorista]

There's pretty much nothing in common between these 2. They're bungee and hold tanks, but that's about as close as it gets.

What are the differences then?
A loop made of bungee is pulled around the valve.
It transfers the weight to between the shoulder blades where it is attached.

Absolutely identical.

 

[tbone1004]

I share that opinion.
I have learned to understand however that they just do not want to 'razorize' everybody.
They could never keep up with demand at a lower price.
On Boot show in Düsseldorf they have sold every Razor they brought with them for three years in a row.
At half the price they would need to bring along shipping containers of them.

what makes you say they couldn't keep up? The production facility that produces them could absolutely keep up with any demand Steve would give them. The production is stupid simple. The plates are CNC cut and is essentially automated, and the wings are stupid simple because there is nothing to them. You clearly have no understanding of how these are made based on that statement.

Fixed loops and single bungees behave very differently and you still contradict yourself on the single loop. If you think an advantage is because it slides to allow you to more easily attach tanks, and then you say that it can't lose tension if one side is not there, then you lack a basic understanding of friction and the forces involved. Not I never said it would come completely out, that is ridiculous, but it would certainly hang significantly lower than it should until all of the tension was removed.
Loops have 2x the bungee under tension helping to rotate the tanks up and into you, they are limited in height by their attachment point, which is the length of the bolt snap, or number of quick links, or whatever your attachment method is. The single piece bungee or current SMS100 style bungee is limited by the location of the chest d-ring and will always hang the neck of the bottles lower than a loop by nature. It's not necessarily a bad thing, it is a choice that the diver has to make after understanding the pros and the cons of what they are doing

 

[Bennno]

@Razorista
So, how many did they sell each year and how do you know?

Tom is right on the production, due to the shape of the wing an the air cell manufacturing isn't hard at all.

 

[Razorista]

what makes you say they couldn't keep up?

They have been constantly sold out.

And you do not seem to know how this works: If you want to start a small scale production, the manufacturer will most likely require you to order a minimum number, to get an acceptable price that can be very large.

By now they have switched manufacturers at least once and probably could increase volume and lower price, but they would have to be able to offer the number of trainings required then.
I believe HP is thorough enough to have at least made a rough business plan based on the price they calculated on release and he seems to want to stick with it.
Their choice alone.

The plates are CNC cut and is essentially automated, and the wings are stupid simple because there is nothing to them.

Ever tried to have them made yourself?
I do not see how you could save more than perhaps 20% on the metal parts.
The other metal parts made of stainless steel are overpriced too, take D-rings for example, which should be a lot cheaper if you think about it.

Fixed loops and single bungees behave very differently and you still contradict yourself on the single loop.

I don't contradict myself, it's just a complex topic to explain and understand.

If you think an advantage is because it slides to allow you to more easily attach tanks,

Does not 'slide', can be pulled with carefully directed force.

and then you say that it can't lose tension if one side is not there,

Neither do you loose tension suddenly, nor is it of much effect.
The hoses hold the tank just fine and the bungee will gradually slip through the webbing whenever enough force is applied.
I have done 100 minute dives without realizing before accent, that I had accidetally unclipped the bungee while sorting boltsnaps on descent.

then you lack a basic understanding of friction and the forces involved.

I really do lack that basic understanding. I have a very complex and detailed understanding and cannot understand why most people don't.

Not I never said it would come completely out, that is ridiculous, but it would certainly hang significantly lower than it should until all of the tension was removed.

After a few minutes or excessive movement, yes.
But why would that be a problem?
You take your replacement bungee, clip that to one side, pull through on the other, or just sling it around the shoulders or below the wing and continue the dive undisturbed.

That only works well with a single bungee, all other system lack that feature or have to imitate it badly. Only on the single bungee replacement works seamlessly without disturbing the dive much.

Loops have 2x the bungee under tension helping to rotate the tanks up and into you,

No they don't!
When you use the bungee to loop around the valve you always get two strings.
Some loops have 'both strings' of bungee connected to the shoulder blade area, single bungee and some other systems have one connected to the D-ring area.
In practical use most behave identically with some loops separating D-ring and valve more than others.

they are limited in height by their attachment point, which is the length of the bolt snap, or number of quick links, or whatever your attachment method is.

That is identical for most systems.
Floating loops remove almost all the metal, single bungee keeps a single boltsnap on each side (and most people use a tiny one that is shorter than the ideal distance between D-ring and valve).
Yes the floating loops are more 'perfect' as a bungee only solution.
They totally suck when carrying tanks on land unsupported however, don't work well with most cheaply rented valves, entangle or become unreachable easily, sometimes are unmanageable with freezing fingers and very thick gloves...
Single bungee works, but is also a compromise favoring flexibility and safety.

The single piece bungee or current SMS100 style bungee is limited by the location of the chest d-ring and will always hang the neck of the bottles lower than a loop by nature. It's not necessarily a bad thing,

Its main disadvantage is the thick bungee Hollis supplies and the separation.
You get neither the single bungees benefits nor that of a 'better' loop system.

it is a choice that the diver has to make after understanding the pros and the cons of what they are doing

Exactly what I am talking about!!

ah and btw @Bennno:
I know when I recommend the Razor to someone and later meet them or hear from them again in posts and they own one.
Most people find one of my posts before they decide on spending that amount of money.
Many contact me directly each year and a handful I even meet personally at Boot show each year for 4 years now.

In the last three years I have advised hundreds on which sidemount system they should buy.
Most bought a Stealth I am always unhappy to admit, some bought Hollis, some a Razor, some even build their own.
Personally I am not much interested which system someone chooses for himself.
I see my role more in advising on a competent choice instead of buying based on any compulsion or recommendation.

 

[Bennno]

@Razorista
So you don't wanna answer the question... I see.

Ever tried to have them made yourself?
I do not see how you could save more than perhaps 20% on the metal parts.

Making one of these plates cost maybe 10 bucks and retails for 30-40.
Bogearts used to sell them separately.

 

[tbone1004]

they are not sold out because the MFG can't keep up with production. I 100% guarantee that. I also know roughly what they are paying said MFG per rig, and it is much lower than you might think. There are reasons that they are sold out, that I am not going to publish, but it is certainly not because production can't keep up.

I have a set of "knockoff" plates that were cut on a waterjet, cost me $40. Sure the Razor ones are much nicer, but this was a one off from a machine shop, not production scale.

HP and Steve are not as holy as you might think them to be...

 

[Razorista]

@Razorista
So you don't wanna answer the question... I see.

I answered @Bennno, look again.

Making one of these plates cost maybe 10 bucks and retails for 30-40.
Bogearts used to sell them separately.

Yes, but they are not calculated at that price in the package.
Of course they do not sell the parts to build your own cheaper without the Razor logos on it.

Otherwise the copycats would just just use those parts to build competing systems like thay do now with those often sharp and rough and sometimes very well made and expensive plates.
The cheapest discount harness of decent quality I know sells for 125 barebone, metal parts and webbing only.
Those parts account in the Razor set for a maximum of about 200-250 of the whole package price.
Sound fair to my ears.

 

[Bennno]

I answered @Bennno, look again.

I asked you how you know how many they sold.

 

[Razorista]

they are not sold out because the MFG can't keep up with production. I 100% guarantee that. I also know roughly what they are paying said MFG per rig, and it is much lower than you might think. There are reasons that they are sold out, that I am not going to publish, but it is certainly not because production can't keep up.

I do not have 'inside information' and am not interested in conspiracy theories on that topic.

As I said, even with training instructors the whole day they could not keep up with demand for training.
And in their official opinion nobody should dive any sidemoun system without dedicated training.

I have a set of "knockoff" plates that were cut on a waterjet, cost me $40. Sure the Razor ones are much nicer, but this was a one off from a machine shop, not production scale.

A friend of mine makes his own copy and his are actually cheaper than that and of much higher material cost than the Razor plates, quality is at least on the same level and the edges are much smoother for the soft webbing he prefers.
It is still impossible for us to help anyone when he comes to us trying to build a sidemount system for less than perhaps 300 Euro, most need at least 400, the systems people dream up sometimes could exceed 1000 Euros production cost.

HP and Steve are not as holy as you might think them to be...

Quite impossible.
I do not idolize human beings, as some here have already found out and reacted badly to.