Three divers die in a cave accident, Punta Iacco, Palinuro Italy Aug. 2016

[Altamira]

Johnny C, and others,
First, I have served with several Medal of Honor, and numerous AF Cross and Silver Star recipients, and I certainly do not put myself among their ranks or achievements. Fortunately I have never had to put myself in the kind of danger they, and others, have done, and hopefully never will. But, if faced with those types of horrors, and life and death decisions, I can only hope I will emulate them. Also, I find it offensive that you would categorize heroic actions by others, whether they are successful or not, as being moronic out of a misplaced sense of altruism. The true heroes I have know are not moronic, but ordinary people that have made extraordinary decisions and taken extraordinary actions to save others at their own peril. In every case of the heroes I have known, none of their actions were taken without the firm and educated belief they could pull it off. None of them was trying to commit suicide, but were willing to risk their own skin to save someone else, often people they did not know. Those types of actions are generally praised, and not criticized or condemned in our country: Certainly not by everyone, but by most people.

Second, I was not talking about the kind of behavior, attitude which leads to suicide under the guise of anything. If you got that impression, I either did not express myself very well, or you are reading way more into my comments than are warranted. I am not talking about idiotic actions in the face of an impossible situation, but in situations where you can make a quick, educated self-assessment of your skills and ability verses the risk you are facing, and can conclude that you have a reasonable chance of success. Would I go into a silted out cave without the proper equipment to attempt a rescue?--no. Would I go into a cave to find someone if I felt I did not have the gas to get in and out safely?--no. Would I leave the cave when I reached my minimum safe air?--yes. Would I try to dive to 200' on an AL80 to try to rescue someone in an underwater free fall?--no. I am talking about situations where you can make a timely assessment whether or not an attempted rescue is feasible and within your capability. The thing about putting yourself at risk in a crisis situation is you are never going to have 100% certainly that you will not wind up being a second victim unless you don't take any action. Then you will be safe. An intelligent person assess the situation, and if deciding to act, does everything possible not to become a second victim.

 

[oya]

Would I leave the cave when I reached my minimum safe air?

And what would minimum safe air be? Not just to exit the cave, but to even enter. Do you have the training to even determine what that is, or are you going to become a victim to a danger you don't know exists by applying even Open Water mastery to an environment where it doesn't apply?

Rule of thirds? Recalculated rule of thirds? Modified rule of thirds? Spend the time to get fresh tanks?

How heavy is your buddy now breathing, lost and in near or full-blown panic?

What if you do find your buddy and you have just enough air left to get both of you to within 100 feet from the entrance before you run out of air where you both die? That's better than just one death because of... I dunno... honor or something?

At which point some other person, likely a total stranger, has to put themself at great personal risk to come and extract two bodies.

 

[Altamira]

Well Oya, I don't particularly care to continue this discussion with you, as you seem to have all the answers, or perhaps all the questions, but please don't assume that you are the only person with cave diving experience in this two way conversation. I have a pretty good idea of the dangers of diving in overhead environments as well as my own capabilities, air requirements, buddy breathing, and safety issues because I was diving caves in Missouri before you were even born. And, I was safely doing it for nearly five years without the benefit of high capacity tanks, double tanks, octos, spgs, computers, bcds, sidemount gear, high performance dive lights, rebreathers, full face mask, scooters, and all the other modern gear you guys are using. We dove conservatively, safely, and knew without question our buddies always had our backs. In addition, I spent most of my adult life flying high performance aircraft, and am extremely good at making quick and accurate assessments in emergency and high stress situations, and more importantly, making the best decisions in the process for the best outcomes. So please don't assume I am some dumbass that is not very capable in the judgment, decision making, and action departments, or am I going to blindly charge into some emergency situation and get myself killed. In my lifelong experience, there are two types of people: Those that are willing to put their own ass on the line in critical situations to help rescue a stranger, and those that won't. I am sure you will continue to think the way you do, as will I, but I am done with this discussion, and hopefully we can get back to the important things like thinking of the divers' families, and finding out as much as we can about this tragic accident.

 

[oya]

In my lifelong experience, there are two types of people: Those that are willing to put their own ass on the line in critical situations to help rescue a stranger, and those that won't.

And in my experience there are two types of people:
Those who want to group the entire population of the planet into two distinct groups, and those who don't.

I don't know you. You might BE Edd Sorenson. I am not specifically attacking you, nor your style of diving, nor your experience, nor your skill. I've said I wouldn't dive with you based on some of the things you've said but the fact is, in person we might be friends and great dive buddies.

My point has been that the issue of a dive rescue/recovery is both dangerous and nuanced even in Open Water. In a cave the game is a million percent different. It takes a certain skill-set and training to do either without creating a bigger problem you're leaving someone else to solve.

I have never flown a plane. I have never served in the military. I have only lived so many years.

I have pulled people successfully out of underwater situations where they were trying to kill themselves (and me); as a working dive professional they have been mostly strangers (and not always paying customers for whom there is an expectation of care). I have also done so unsuccessfully. I have also had to go clean up afterwards. None of these occasions have been fun. But I've done it before and I dare say I will have to do it again.

For my part (and, I venture, for dive professionals everywhere) what breaks my heart the most is when it was all avoidable...

... as, it sounds like, this accident was.

What we can learn here is, it seems, nothing new. People went where the didn't belong. They died. They shouldn't have. It is terribly tragic. I shudder to think of their last moments and I ache for the people who have suffered that loss.

 

[vinegarbiscuit]

Well Oya, I don't particularly care to continue this discussion with you, as you seem to have all the answers, or perhaps all the questions, but please don't assume that you are the only person with cave diving experience in this two way conversation. I have a pretty good idea of the dangers of diving in overhead environments as well as my own capabilities, air requirements, buddy breathing, and safety issues because I was diving caves in Missouri before you were even born. And, I was safely doing it for nearly five years without the benefit of high capacity tanks, double tanks, octos, spgs, computers, bcds, sidemount gear, high performance dive lights, rebreathers, full face mask, scooters, and all the other modern gear you guys are using. We dove conservatively, safely, and knew without question our buddies always had our backs. In addition, I spent most of my adult life flying high performance aircraft, and am extremely good at making quick and accurate assessments in emergency and high stress situations, and more importantly, making the best decisions in the process for the best outcomes. So please don't assume I am some dumbass that is not very capable in the judgment, decision making, and action departments, or am I going to blindly charge into some emergency situation and get myself killed. In my lifelong experience, there are two types of people: Those that are willing to put their own ass on the line in critical situations to help rescue a stranger, and those that won't. I am sure you will continue to think the way you do, as will I, but I am done with this discussion, and hopefully we can get back to the important things like thinking of the divers' families, and finding out as much as we can about this tragic accident.

For someone who is accusing people of making assumptions, you're making quite a few of your own. Did it occur to you that some of the people posting on this thread have had to perform the awful, thankless, and dangerous task of recovering buddies from overhead and open water environments? That they have put their lives on the line in critical situations, and feel nothing but the utmost sadness and anger when learning about incidents such as this? How they might bristle when reading your initial statement, "Most people that have never served in the military, fire fighting, police, and similar professions have a hard time wrapping their minds around the concept of risking your own life to save others. I think in most cases of heroic efforts to save others, the rescuers do not sit down and analyze whether or not their actions could put their own lives at risk. They see something that needs to be done to save their buddy, buddies, or perhaps someone they don't even know, and they just do it."? It came across rather poorly - it implied that an ill-equipped, unqualified person would charge into harm's way out of a misguided sense of heroism. You have since explained that that's not the case, but that's how it came across.

We have no idea what happened here - whether someone with no training or equipment ducked into the cave and others followed to get them out; if they all went in blithely, thinking it would be a lark; or if at least one or two had done it before and thought they could get away with it one more time, and others just followed - kind of a "trust me" dive. It's all speculation, but in the harsh, cold light of day, there's not much for anyone to learn. It all boils down to the same thing: untrained and ill-equipped people went where they shouldn't, and paid the most awful price. That is a horrible burden for the people they left behind. And no-one understands that better than recovery divers who ultimately give closure to grieving family members.

 

[fsardone]

In the latest news there is a preliminary result of post mortem of the two recovered bodies:
death by drowning tanks were empty (they talk about no oxygen in the tanks but is it the usual misunderstanding about the breathing gas).
Most of everything else in the following article is speculation.

Tragedia Palinuro, bombole senza ossigeno: sub morti per annegamento

 

[Altamira]

It is a pity that discussions, sometimes heated ones, cannot be done in person over a cold beer or cup of coffee instead of on boards like this. A lot of misunderstandings and perhaps poorly expressed comments could be quickly and easily resolved and understood.
First, I am not an Edd Sorenson, and if ther ever was a Medal of Honor for diving, he should have it, numerous times over. My skills, capabilities, and ability to take on cave rescue operations, as he routinely does, are not in the same universe. Likewise for my diving experience and abilities, especially compard to the many superbly qualified and capable divers on this forum. I will also be the first to admit that because of my, and my family's military background and experiences working and living with like minded comrades-in-arms that will move heaven and earh to rescue a fellow soldier or aviator, I am likely too reactive to comments that appear to me demeaning and disrespectful toward people from any walk of life or profession that make heroic efforts to save others, especially if their actions cause the loss of their own life. So when I hear adjectives such as moronic, stupid, selfish, etc., attributed to people that do their best to save another person, sometimes resulting in the loss of their own lives, I think of the many real heroes I have known that deserve only praise and admiration. Finally, while I fully understand the rational behind the "don't become a second victim" mantra, when I hear that phrase, I think of the many helicopter and fighter pilots that had have their aircraft shot out from under them trying to rescue downed airmen or wounded soldiers, and the firefighters and police officers that lost their lives on 9/11. Some might say a wasre of lives, but not from me.

 

[Storker]

when I hear adjectives such as moronic, stupid, selfish, etc., attributed to people that do their best to save another person, sometimes resulting in the loss of their own lives, I think of the many real heroes I have known that deserve only praise and admiration. Finally, while I fully understand the rational behind the "don't become a second victim" mantra, when I hear that phrase, I think of the many helicopter and fighter pilots that had have their aircraft shot out from under them trying to rescue downed airmen or wounded soldiers, and the firefighters and police officers that lost their lives on 9/11. Some might say a wasre of lives, but not from me.

No-one knows The Right Answer™. It's always a continuum, and no-one knows where the border that separates black from white in a fuzzy grey continuum lies. Hindsight is always 20/20.

That said, I have to admit that I have little respect for what I perceive as a very Anglo-Saxon cultural phenomenon: the reverence of the heroic, but futile attempt. In my opinion, a rescuer should never attempt a rescue operation unless that person has a minimum of competence and is able to competently assess the risk they are taking. Mindless and incompetent rescue attempts don't deserve praise, because they will most probably only result in another fatality.

 

[wgw04024]

I would say I'm in the middle here. I would certainly make an attempt to save my buddy, or someone else. I can't say where my line would be where I abort a rescue attempt, but there is certainly a line in a situation like that. I have kids, I have my own family, there are other considerations that would flash through my mind. Part of my decision would certainly be (whether they knew what they were doing or not), did they start the situation by doing things they should of known better, or were being reckless in the first place. Alot of these things I see as having to be made on the spot. I just hope I'm clear headed enough to make a good decision for both of us.

 

[boulderjohn]

I think of the many helicopter and fighter pilots that had have their aircraft shot out from under them trying to rescue downed airmen or wounded soldiers, and the firefighters and police officers that lost their lives on 9/11.

In these cases you are talking about people doing what is their job under conditions for which they have been trained, and they are following that training. To do otherwise would be a dereliction of their duties. That is a huge difference.