4 questions after a first dive weekend

[bryanmc57]

The second pic is not possible for me. My DSS inflator hose is slid through the bike tire tubes on my strap to keep it in place.

Only the lpi hose from your regulator goes under the innertube.

But the inflator is so short it only sits on my shoulder. It's not even close to laying on my chest. I'm barrel chested like a viking. I use my right hand to operate the inflator, and butt dump when in a regular diving position. My computer is on my right arm. My right hand can operate the inflator fine. My left hand does ok, but there is no way in heck I can get it into position like the second pic

All I did in the second pic was was rotate my hand and let the inflator rotate into my palm. It sounds like your backplate is too low and the problem is compounded because you have the big inflator hose under the innertube. You should be using your left hand to operate the inflator and butt dump, not your right. That way you can watch your computer while adjusting your buoyancy.

Here's a general idea of where your plate should sit.

I don't get why there is a specific way anyone has to do it. I just push the darn button.

That's all you have to do....

 

[admikar]

nothing wrong with that, but the drysuit dump is on the same side as the wing dumps for a reason, you can usually roll to the right and dump both at the same time, but it depends on how much air you keep in your suit and how much ends up in the feet.

When you want to ascend, go slightly head up/drop legs to reduce drag and move air bubble up (what you have been doing). Do this for about 5ft, venting drysuit.

Return to horizontal position with 5ft to go until your next stop. Use butt dump on wing and breath control as needed to ascend the remaining 5ft and stop.

Thanks to both of you, I'll try both ways.

 

[tbone1004]

The second pic is not possible for me. My DSS inflator hose is slid through the bike tire tubes on my strap to keep it in place.

But the inflator is so short it only sits on my shoulder. It's not even close to laying on my chest. I'm barrel chested like a viking. I use my right hand to operate the inflator, and butt dump when in a regular diving position. My computer is on my right arm. My right hand can operate the inflator fine. My left hand does ok, but there is no way in heck I can get it into position like the second pic

I don't get why there is a specific way anyone has to do it. I just push the darn button.

The good news is I can bottom out on the sandy bottom and not get sand in my inflator. As it doesn't dangle below me, at all.

as a fellow viking chested guy, I hear you, but I think you have some assembly discrepancies.

One innertube loop on each shoulder strap BELOW the d-rings for backup light retention.
One or two innertube loops on the corrugated hose to hold the inflator hose to the corrugated hose.
One bungee loop that is put in the same place as the left shoulder d-ring. The inflator mechanism is slide through this to keep it in place, and then the LPI is put over the bungee loop to retain it.

This is the best picture I have found of how I set it up. This gives you enough room to orally inflate, and plenty to deflate *remember that anyone who taught you that the inflator has to be put straight up and over your head is grossly misinformed. It just has to be brought to a point higher than the elbow of the wing, which should be straight forward, any higher is putting unnecessary stress on the hoses for 0 gain*.

 

[RainPilot]

I can't imagine how frustrating it would be to learn to dive a BP/W, including weighting myself for both buoyancy and trim, purely from advice on the Internet. I had done a couple of hundred dives in a traditional BC when I switched to a (DSS) BP/W, and it took me days to figure everything out--and that was with an instructor. Is there no one you can ask to show you? No GUE or UTD course nearby? The advice here is top-notch, but no substitute for a course or some mentoring.

He is coming to visit me in a few weeks and I'll help him out with some of the UTD essentials courses

 

[bryanmc57]

One or two innertube loops on the corrugated hose to hold the inflator hose to the corrugated hose.

I never found a need to bind the inflator corrugated hose and the lp hose together with innertube, just connecting them seems to keep them together enough and running just the lp hose unter an innertube loop at the top front of the left shoulder keeps them in place. Then I just tuck the inflator mouthpiece in a bungee loop at the left shoulder d ring..

 

[tbone1004]

I have found it more necessarily in singles than in doubles, but it is a habit that was beaten into me from the first time I assembled scuba gear, so old habits die hard... I hate threading innertube onto webbing so I prefer to bind them together right behind the shoulder where they first come together because I LOATHE unthreading the left side of a harness to replace innertube which happens far too often

 

[stuartv]

1.) DSS, BP/W, and Tobin's short inflator hose

2.) BP/W and a weight belt makes it hard to ditch weight if ever needed

3.) Slight over weighting as a beginner?

4.) Proper weight distribution

I got a DSS BP/W immediately after I finished my OW cert. I never had any in-person assistance with getting it to work for me. Only what I found on the Internet. Mostly, very helpful advice from a few people on here. I never had any trouble with it, but my comfort with it did increase gradually over the first 20 or so dives, I guess. The improvements in comfort mostly came from the fact that my harness was initially much tighter than it is now. I could put it on (on land, with no tank) and fit my fist through the shoulder straps like "the directions" say you're supposed to, but it still was too tight. With it too tight it was a bit difficult to don/doff. And my trim was further from ideal than it is now. Once I finally got it to where it stays now, it is loose enough that I can put it on easily, on land or in the water. And I can take it off in the water easily, too. I did my Rescue class using my BP/W. When it came time for the exercise where I was towing a diver, giving rescue breaths, and simultaneously supposed to take my rig off, my instructor said something about swapping me to an integrated BCD for that exercise, so that I would be able to take it off. I said no way and did the exercise, easily getting out of the rig while towing and simulating rescue breaths. I could not have done that with my rig adjusted that way it was when I first started using it.

I am 6' 1" and my chest is 10" bigger than my waist, so, according to the men's garment industry, I am somewhat barrel-chested.

I have the stock 16" inflator. It hangs just over and past the top of my shoulder. With it there, I have no trouble reaching it or operating it with my left hand - in any orientation underwater or on the surface. If yours doesn't hang over that far, it sounds like your BP is too low on your back. If your problem is simply doing it using the "form" that they taught you in class, well, do what works for you and don't worry about the Official PADI Inflator Hand Position. If yours does hang over your shoulder and down your front just a little bit and you really just can't reach it, then it sounds like maybe your cold water gear doesn't fit right and is binding your left arm way too much. Imagine yourself wearing a set of doubles. Even in full cold water gear, if it fits right, you would be able to reach back to your tank valves and the isolator valve. And if you can reach those, reaching your inflator should absolutely be no problem.

Your concern about your weight belt seems to be that other people won't be able to get it off you in a rescue situation. Okay. Wear it over your crotch strap. Or put weight pockets with quick release deals on your harness' waist belt. But, note that a lot of experienced divers have now said that they don't worry about having ditchable weight. Personally, I'd say to try wearing your weight belt over your crotch strap until you feel comfortable enough to make a decision for yourself on how you want to change what you're doing.

Some people will probably say (or at least think) that I am ignorant due to my relative inexperience on this. But, when it comes to weighting, I feel like "proper" weighting is being able to be neutral with an empty wing and an empty tank - all while you are breathing normally. When you are new and don't have breathing control that is as good as it will be later, that means you'll carry a little extra weight. But that doesn't mean you are over weighted. That means you are properly weighted - for your current level of experience. In other words, however much weight you NEED is what is proper. What you NEED should reflect an empty wing and an empty tank and whatever level of breathing control you have - not what you will have at some point in the future.

Also, an AL80 carries about 6 # of gas. With 500 psi in it, that means it should still have about 1# of gas. So, if you are weighted properly, you should be at least 1# negative at a normal safety stop, regardless. Thus, if shtuff happens and you need to hover at 15' until you literally draw the last gas from your cylinder (because something happened and you stayed down too long), you can do so without having to fight to stay down (or corking).

Say you weren't paying attention and you suddenly realize you're still on the bottom and only have 400psi left. You do a controlled ascent to your safety stop, but don't have enough gas left to stay for the full 3 to 5 minutes. You still want to be carrying enough weight that you can stay at 10 or 15 feet for as long as possible. An extra 1 or 2 minutes there really does make a significant difference in your chances of getting DCS (if you were anywhere near your NDL).

Any gas that you are carrying without weight to counter balance it is useless, really. It's serving only as ballast. You may as well carry less gas and replace it with lead. At least you'd have a chance to easily ditch lead if you had to.

In other words, I say, do what works for you. If you need an extra 1 or 2 # to be able to stay down even if your breathing gets out of whack for a minute, then take the weight. When your breathing control improves, you can shed the extra weight. An extra 8 or 10 # would be bad. An extra 2 or even 4 # beyond what you absolutely need just isn't a big deal.

For trim, the weight should be wherever it needs to be to let you achieve good trim. If you have trim weights in tank strap pockets, make sure those pockets are tight up against the back plate. If they are and you still feel like you're getting pulled over backwards, move the trim weights to your front. Or sides. Whatever works. Just be aware that what works best for you may change as you develop your skills and experience.

When you can hover perfectly horizontal, with good form, and perfectly still - not moving your hands or even your fin tips - you will have found Trim Nirvana. Wherever you need to put the weight to do that is just where it needs to go. From there, you may possibly tweak it by moving weight from your back around to your front, if you want to change your balance when you are in non-horizontal positions. But, I'd bet that by the time you are able to hover horizontally and perfectly still you won't need any advice from the Internet on where to position your trim weights.

 

[2airishuman]

Filmguy,

Lots of good replies but I'm going to add my own because one year ago I was a new diver in a DSS BP/W and therefore have been through what you're going through.

If you can find an instructor to teach you BP/W diving, great, I didn't, I figured it out myself with some help from here.

1.) DSS, BP/W, and Tobin's short inflator hose

Several things to consider here.

1) when you are routinely dumping air while making small depth changes, as when moving around a reef or wreck, you should be using the butt dump

2) be sure that the wing is high enough on your back. You may need to adjust the location of the wing on the backplate, or the length of the shoulder straps, or both

3) if it's really too short, replace it with a longer one. You'll have to determine whether it's the corrugated hose, or the LP inflator hose, or both, that are posing a problem. BP/W setups do require a degree of customization to match the body shape of various divers.

2.) BP/W and a weight belt makes it hard to ditch weight if ever needed
So, the weight belt goes under the BP/W crotch strap. On one hand, this is as easy as "just undo the BP/W, then the weight belt". On the other hand, as a brand new diver using as harness system unfamiliar to everyone around me, this is a few extra steps of complexity. First undo the BP/W, then thread the crotch strap out, and now my weight belt is clear for release. Ok. I don't love the extra steps there.

This is one of the inherent tradeoffs of a BP/W setup. You will have to decide for yourself whether it's one you'll accept. You will also have to decide how much of a hurry you'll be in to dump weights, in an emergency where ditching weights is warranted.

I have practiced ditching weights in my rig, and do not find that it is necessary to fuss with the crotch strap. I undo the waist belt, and undo the weight belt, and everything more or less comes apart at that point. I have a 3" sewn loop at the end of my crotch strap, where the waist belt goes through it, and it doesn't bind to the waist belt at all, it just slips right off.

But my greater concern is that of other divers having no idea what to do. Unfortunately (for better or worse), even many instructors and DMs weren't familiar with the BP/W setup and I had to explain to them how to release the weights from me if ever needed. They didn't seem super confident in this - or should I say, I did not feel super confident in their ability to handle this.

In a rescue situation, if they know what they're doing, they'll just cut all the straps and get you out of your kit.

It has only rarely been my experience that there are other divers present who pay attention to how my kit is configured so that they may further my safety in an emergency. Either they're clueless themselves, or too busy watching other divers who are more clueless than I am. In an ideal world, you would choose a buddy who shares your approach to diving. Let me know if you're in the Minneapolis area and we can go hit one of my favorite mud puddles.

Any thoughts on how to better handle weighting to keep things as safe as possible while I am new? I'm not talking about a speculative and highly undesireable out of air weight ditch below the surface... thinking more of just a surface emergency of some sort. Perhaps I am overthinking that, but as a new diver, the BP/W with full coldwater gear is not easy to slip out of, people around me have no idea how to unhook it, it's heavier than most any BC because of all the integrated weight, and releasing the weight belt requires undoing multiple straps that others don't know how to use first. Disconcerting.

Don't use the integrated weights unless you're convinced that they are the best way to solve whatever problem you have. Especially at first. Especially, as appears to be the case, if this is an area of particular concern for you. Just put lead on your belt instead.

I was out in 7mm in Lake Superior day before yesterday. No integrated weights, 14 pounds of lead on my belt, 4 left 10 right. I was carrying a pony tank that's maybe 8 pounds negative. Sometimes the integrated weights make sense for a particular dive, but I don't use them often.

3.) Slight over weighting as a beginner?
What is the best balance between proper weighting and slight over weighting? I know the scuba pros here will *always* advocate proper weighting - of course! It's called proper for a reason. But throw yourself back to dive 5. With proper weighting, it seems quite difficult to get that initial ascent going. I'm fine with that. However, it can be problemetic on the way BACK - it's quite difficult to hold buoyancy at 15 feet currently, because you must be great on breath control, etc. Additionally, in the event of loss of control of buoyancy, it seems it would be very difficult to stop oneself once the snowball affect takes over, even with all weight ditched from the BC - because once you hit 15-20 feet with any amount of momentum, I don't see how you could stop yourself without perfect breath control and proper form.

Perhaps I am missing something here - but it seems a little overweighting of 2lbs or so would assist in keeping one down at these shallow depths where the pressure change is so strong, and the buoyancy is difficult? I know that in general, over-weighting requires use of more air in the BC which expands more upon ascent, and so over-weighting is not a great solution as it can actual cause you to be working with excess expanding air - but is there ever a good balance or trade off here for safety as a beginner until buoyancy is more dialed in?

Buoyancy control in cold water is more difficult than buoyancy control in warm water. You have to add or vent a lot more air to compensate for wetsuit compression. It takes practice, and will take more practice to get down than diving in the tropics in a rasher.

If you're having difficulty maintaining neutral buoyancy at the end of your dive, and your wing is empty or nearly so, you could consider adding another two pounds on your next dive. With any wing you have to adjust your orientation a little to get the last of the air out.

4.) Proper weight distribution
On a BP/W setup, do you ever want any weight placed towards the front of the torso (chest area, front of weight belt)? Or should it all be centered on hips and back, with the only placement considerations being towards the head or tail? I seemed to have some problems with the rig wanting to pull me backwards from a vertical position, but that may also be as simple as a form issue? Any weighting tips to help prevent roll as well?

You have to try different stuff. If you can't maintain trim, move weights around. Small changes can make a big difference. Be sure your waist belt and crotch strap are tight enough that your rig stays in one place.

 

[Rusty Roo]

as someone who started with a back inflate and progressed to a bp/w i personally wouldn't recommend starting your diving with bp/w simply because they're different most rec instructors don't use them so learning needs to be adjusted for your equipment which when you're probably already a bit stressed doesn't help.
but you have it so let's try and answer your questions.
1) don't know the short hose but i would use something to attach it to your d ring on your shoulder.
2) you worry about ditching weight it won't help you.
3) i would go against over weighting but don't worry about being properly weighted as you'll fine tune it over time.
4) look at getting a p weight for your backplate.

 

[Frenimy]

As far as your weight belt goes have you looked at a DUI weight harness. I have one and absolutely love it. plus it adds the benifit of having a ditchable weight if you want.

DUI Weight & Trim System