Is there a "hardest cert/most stringent certifier?"

[VikingDives]

Pcfaj and Eric - thanks for the comments on GUE, I hadn't heard of them. What other agencies have you trained with for comparison's sake?

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

Pcfaj and Eric - thanks for the comments on GUE, I hadn't heard of them. What other agencies have you trained with for comparison's sake?

Nothing really compares to GUE's style and gear config other than perhaps some other cave cert agencies? I'm not a cave diver so I really don't know. My TDI tech courses certainly weren't even up to GUE's standards.
GUE started as a cave diving agency/group in FL. Their system was later marketed world wide as a system that would work for all types of diving.
But it is a strict system. You have to have your gear set up the way they have it outlined since it is a holistic approach and the gear config goes hand in hand with the specific training and protocols. Their system was reverse engineered from the highest level of cave/tech diving and brought down to the level of open water training with the end goal of the highest level in mind. So the gear for open water is basically the same foundation with respect to gear and basic training as the highest level cave diver. You just have a lot less stuff on.
So it's really trying to compare apples to oranges when you inquire about GUE vs every one else. To be clear, there is nothing wrong with everyone else as long as he instructor is competent and does a good job.
GUE is a very small niche group.

 

[PfcAJ]

Pcfaj and Eric - thanks for the comments on GUE, I hadn't heard of them. What other agencies have you trained with for comparison's sake?

NAUI (ow, aow, nitrox, cavern, cave 1), padi (rescue, efr), nss-CDS cave dpv, iantd tech supervisor

 

[kcprofessor]

If there is a difference in agencies, what who/which has the hardest training? I don't want to take the easiest route, but I'd rather be trained by the best. Is that a thing anymore?

Are you looking for the hardest, in terms of physically demanding, or are you really looking for the most thorough? The larger training agencies have rigorous standards that they demand their instructors adhere to. I have certifications from PADI, SSI and TDI and have been both a PADI and an SSI Instructor. I know first hand that no agency wants its instructors turning out unsafe and irresponsible divers. The standards tell us what we must cover and how we must teach it, within certain parameters. Some of the "old time" teaching methods would definitely get you sanctioned today.

That being said, the expectations of both student and instructor should both increase as one continues down the educational path. Your first task must be to define your expectations. A Rescue Diver course from any of the agencies will cover pretty much the same topics, but the instructor makes all the difference. Before you take ANY diving course you should meet the instructor and find out what gets taught what skills must be mastered. If that doesn't meet your expectations, talk with the instructor about gaining the additional knowledge you want or find another shop and/or instructor.
A good instructor will want to work with you to help you develop the knowledge and skills you need. He or she will also try to discern your motivation for taking the course. I for one don't want to teach a Stress and Rescue course to someone who just wants another card to impress their friends.

 

[CAPTAIN SINBAD]

Overall, standard of diver training at the recreational level is disappointingly poor. Consensus on this board is that "it is not the agency but the instructor that matters." To me this statement is indicative of the fact that training agencies are a global failure. The whole purpose of a certification agency is to create and maintain a certain standard across the board. Imagine how silly it would sound if someone said, Harvard, MIT, Oxford do not matter. Look for a good professor instead. Or, it does not matter whether it is Burger King, McDonalds or Harveys. Just look for the Chef. The rhetoric which is unacceptable in almost any other context is totally acceptable when we talk about the diving industry.

The only two exceptions I can think of are GUE and UTD. While I am not fully convinced of everything these guys do and I find their training and diving to be expensive, one thing that I give them credit for is that they do a far better job at maintaining standard than any other agency I have come across. This is not to say that other agencies do not have good instructors but that they do a pathetic job at filtering out the bad ones.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

Overall, standard of diver training at the recreational level is disappointingly poor. Consensus on this board is that "it is not the agency but the instructor that matters." To me this statement is indicative of the fact that training agencies are a global failure. The whole purpose of a certification agency is to create and maintain a certain standard across the board. Imagine how silly it would sound if someone said, Harvard, MIT, Oxford do not matter. Look for a good professor instead. Or, it does not matter whether it is Burger King, McDonalds or Harveys. Just look for the Chef. The rhetoric which is unacceptable in almost any other context is totally acceptable when we talk about the diving industry.

The only two exceptions I can think of are GUE and UTD. While I am not fully convinced of everything these guys do and I find their training and diving to be expensive, one thing that I give them credit for is that they do a far better job at maintaining standard than any other agency I have come across. This is not to say that other agencies do not have good instructors but that they do a pathetic job at filtering out the bad ones.

I completely agree with this. I feel that this sort of information to a person looking to get certified leads to a lot a anxiety that they might get hooked up with a loser, and that's just the way it is. Unfortunately, too many times it's true.
I think it's an epic fail and they could do a lot better.
I like your comparative analogies.

 

[nadwidny]

Pcfaj and Eric - thanks for the comments on GUE, I hadn't heard of them. What other agencies have you trained with for comparison's sake?

NAUI (ow, aow, nitrox, cavern, cave 1), padi (rescue, efr), nss-CDS cave dpv, iantd tech supervisor

I have or at one time had- NAUI OWI, PADI DM, SSI OWI, IANTD trimix and some lesser Instructor certs, TDI -some various things like KISS RB and gas mixer. And GUE Cave 1 and 2. These are the ones that I remember. Might be a couple more.

And I concur with PfcAJ on his opinions about GUE.

 

[Pullmyfinger]

Rec2 includes some "rescue diver" curriculum, I believe.

And yes GUE is uniformly better than the rest.

I concur.
GUE is uniformly better, and requires more of a commitment, which may make it less appealing to some.

For the other recreational agencies, there will be differences in how classes are taught, which makes it important for you to do your research, and find an instructor that is teaching a quality class.

 

[Vegan Shark]

GUE is hands down the top organization if you're looking to become a better diver, and the hardest to pass. All the instructors are truly incredible divers, and the course requirements are very strict.

Going off certification alone, you have no idea how good a diver certified by PADI or the other big name companies is--since getting certified is just a matter of opening your wallet, and not doing anything ridiculously stupid during the class/dives they could be an amazing diver, or an awful one. Big range. But if someone is GUE certified, you're guaranteed they're a fantastic diver; the course requirements to pass are so strict that even those who have dived their entire life often don't pass.

But, comparing GUE to regular organizations doesn't make much sense. GUE attracts a completely different diver; people who are very serious about diving, and treat it more as a "sport" rather than a hobby, and want to perfect their skills. GUE also has a military-like mindset, requiring conformity in everything. Which wrist you put your compass on, what type of BC you use, how long your hoses are, etc. everything is standardized.

For a lot of people, that rigidity is a turn off, but if you're looking for the most stringent certifier they're what you're looking for.

 

[Diver0001]

TL;DR: Is there any difference between any of the certification agencies anymore, or does it all boil down to the instructor? If there is a best (or better) cert, what is it? I am not looking for the cheapest/easiest or the chest-thumping'est route. I'm looking for the agency this is most likely to ensure that my training will prevent me from being a statistic in some government report.

I got certified almost 20 years ago by PADI (OWD) and DRI (Public Safety Diver) and then took 14 years off from diving. Recently, I went on vacation and did a re-cert and some OW dives in Jamaica. While diving with the "resort divers" I ended up rescuing a dive buddy at the surface (she forgot to connect her low-pressure hose) and helping a panicked diver when she was faced with a swim-through that she wasn't ready for... Both of those situations showed me that I am under-trained for what I was encountering and encouraged me to get more training. Here's the question: Is there any real difference between any of the dive training agencies anymore, or is it more just a question of who your instructor is/and the instructor's experience? I did my AOW training with PADI in 01, and just repeated it last month, and while I learned some things, I can say that on the whole, I have not been impressed with dive training in general. I want to know that my instruction and skill set is the best that I can have and while there's a certain measure of individual responsibility there, to paraphrase Donald Rumsfeld, I don't know what I don't know.

If there is a difference in agencies, what who/which has the hardest training? I don't want to take the easiest route, but I'd rather be trained by the best. Is that a thing anymore?

Thanks.

Generally speaking I think that there are few differences between recreational agencies beyond instructor competence aside from BSAC. BSAC does pretty much their own thing, in a strictly British context and IMO are well behind the curve when it comes to integrating emerging best practices. (and by well behind the curve I mean 15-20 years). They appear to have not kept pace since their break away from CMAS and presently, the only divers I routinely see who would appear to be further behind the curve are public safety divers on mainland Europe, some of whom are still using horse-collar BCD's because their commanders haven't discovered electricity (and therefore the internet) yet.

But I don't want to slag off BSAC for no reason. The foundations have the potential to be amazing but appear to be being held back by an estabished elite who learned to dive in the 80's (or earlier) and are reluctant (at least) to consider that the way THEY dive isn't potentially the best way. I'm sure BSAC divers on the board will have some more to say about that.

PADI, for example, also tends to lag behind the curve with respect to emerging best practices becaue they want to see PROOF that it works. However PADI DOES listen to its members and their standards are in a fairly constant state of flux as they integrate new ideas, new educational approaches and input from instructors on the ground.

Where the rubber meets the road, however, PADI cannot, and does not, control the individual actions of individual instructors. There are more than 100,000 Padi instructors on this planet and their quality control is basically built around a "click system"..... ie.... management by exception. If nobody reports an instructor for excesses then nothing will happen. This is obviously bad because there is no proactive action. On the other hand, the more people understand how important it is to report bad instructors, the better quality control will get.

As for technical agencies. I only hold certs from IANTD and TDI and in both cases the instructor makes 100% of the difference. If you think you can learn technical diving by following a checklist of skills (a standard) then you're wrong. There are skills involved but training for technical diving is, in my experience, more a matter of mentoring than training. The more advanced, the more important mentoring becomes.

GUE system is built up like that as well. Their standards differ little from IANTD or TDI (only nuances) and the origns of GUE lay in the PADI system.... but their instructors differ in some cases in attitude. I've watched GUE instructors teach and i'm not personally that impressed because I don't believe that if something is made harder that it is automatically better, but some of them can dive well enough that it even made ME think.... wow. To date, I haven't had that with IANTD or TDI instructors.

R..