Let's Hear about Your Bad Training Experiences

[Diver0001]

I don't think I've personally had any "bad" training experiences. My OW course was excellent, my advanced course (same instructor) was excellent, etc.... in fact, all of the courses I've taken to date have taught me something new. Over the years I've also become pretty well connected and very picky about which instructor I ask to do what. My technical specialties were taken under several different instructors, all friends of mine, who I selected specifically because they were good at those particular specialties.

As an instructor I've seen some really poor instructing happening over several agencies and disciplines. The reason I work how I do now at the shop where I work now had to do with one of those. At a shop where I used to work the management of the shop decided a some point to focus on "quickie" courses. Most shops will do quickie courses if you want them too but that's not the normal mode. This particular shop, however, made a conscious decision to go into "price fighter" mode during the recession and the OW course was cut back to the absolute minimum number of steps and activities required by the letter of the standard.

If you do these really quick courses, then you need to change your focus as an instructor from avoiding problems by focusing a lot on things like buddy contact, communication, buoyancy control, and in-water comfort to solving problems by focusing your attention on emergency procedures, air sharing, CESA and surface skills.

This shop, however did neither of these things. Instructors were put on a strict time line that was so tight that there was no room for focusing on *anything*. Students were literally sitting on the bottom during the entire course and learning nothing. Mask problem? Their attitude was that it would work itself out after they were certified. Nervous? No time to deal with that. Not communicating? It's not in the standards that they need to communicate. Can't swim well enough to get through the CESA? literally grab onto them and drag them the 9 meters and then congratulate them on a job well done.

Theory? LOL.... you must be kidding. If they want to live they'll read the book. Just do the quizzes but since you do all 5 modules and the final exam in 2 hours, just give them the right answers for things that were wrong and tell them to read the book again on their own time.

I'm not exaggerating. They way they were doing it, the instructor had ZERO and I mean ZERO insight as to whether or not a student could even plan a dive. The shop also didn't allow for using touch (or the forerunner of touch) because it was too expensive, even though that would have helped a lot.

They asked me to help run this once and I wasn't aware that they were doing it like this. My focus is always to focus on prevention and I'm very particular about putting my focus on things like communication and buoyancy control. During the 1st pool session I noticed the shop's instructor and mastermind of this system, on the bottom of the pool during the entire lesson.

Meanwhile I started the session (as I always do) with swimming around, some hovering, some signing and getting used to being there. After that I did module 1 and part of module 2 but I parked one skill with one of the students because he was having trouble with his mask. My experience was that if a student is getting stressed out by not getting something (especially a mask skill) that hammering at it isn't the solution. I tried it again at the end of the session and he was still stressed out about it so I parked it and made a note to review it the following week.

This is normal.

The shop's instructor ripped me a new one for that after the session. In his opinion I was "wasting" a lot of time with swimming,which wasn't in the standards, and if the student wasn't getting a skill that I should push him until he got it mostly right at least once and then approve it so they don't lose time in the next session. There was no time for solving problems and by doing so I was hampering the entire course and putting them off schedule.

It escalated into a fight which ended with me telling him that with his insane system that there was absolutely no question in my mind IF he was going to kill someone, but WHEN. I quit after that session and never went back.

That was a very negative experience but what it taught me is that as an instructor it's on ME to set boundaries, to know what I will accept as working conditions and not, and to ensure that I have the room to deliver quality. I now work at a new shop that gives me that room. This shop also runs quickie courses but they wouldn't even think about asking me to run them.

R..

 

[TMHeimer]

r, That's quite a story and apparently not too rare. Our shop seemed to give as much time as possible to do a good job. The idea of one weekend in the pool and one in OW these days (I haven't been diving long enough to remember anything else) is restricting enough, even if you exceed to usual number of hours per day. I took OW at night over 3 weeks, which was a lot better for me (I think), but the total pool/class hours were the same, just more time in between to absorb things.

 

[Schwob]

While I came away with the impression during my OW class that the focus is quite possibly more on certifying divers and creating customers than actually teaching well and while I don't like that feeling on many levels, it is at least somewhat understandable - also imo not really justifyable ... but it's a job and a living and aparently, something got to give....
But seeing a fellow diver in the AOWD class dive at a 45 degree inclined angle all the time, to the last dive and additionally literally kicking the reef (inadvertantly) all the time to the point that even class mates with bleeding hearts from seeing it tried to convince him to try better - seeing him not being taught better and getting that cert nevertheless, seeing that really actually hurt ... and is telling... (imho)

 

[Diver0001]

r, That's quite a story and apparently not too rare. Our shop seemed to give as much time as possible to do a good job. The idea of one weekend in the pool and one in OW these days (I haven't been diving long enough to remember anything else) is restricting enough, even if you exceed to usual number of hours per day. I took OW at night over 3 weeks, which was a lot better for me (I think), but the total pool/class hours were the same, just more time in between to absorb things.

Well there are some dynamics at work here.

The first is obviously that the instructor understands what is being asked of them. In the story I obviously didn't understand what the instructor was being asked to . The shop asked me to help them test a "new concept" and I agreed. I'm always open to trying things a new way because I'm not arrogant enough to think that the way I do things is the only way, or the best way. I've gotten to be a pretty damned good instructor (even if I say it myself) because I *do* listen to other people and I *do* try new things.

In this case, however, was asked to do something that wasn't ok and I agreed because I didn't take the time to ask the right questions. There are a LOT... and I mean a LOT .... of instructors who agree to do things that they KNOW isn't ok. I see this especially with young instructors who don't have the experience or the life-experience to know that other people will try to take advantage of them, or understand how to say no. One of the diseases of the scuba industry is that we have a massive glut of young instructors who all want a job and some of them are willing to do just about anything as long as they are working.

I firmly believe that the instructor's course could be improved by addressing this. It's a reality in the dive industry that newbie instructors aren't ready for. There should be something in the instructors course about saying NO and setting boundaries with employers. This is a life skill that you only learn after saying YES too many times and seeing the consequences. A lot of newbie instructors are young and don't have that life experience.

In any negotiation there is a break point that we call the BANA. " best alternative to a negotiated agreement" It may be called different things in different countries but where I live that's what's it's called. In the case of a dive instructor the BANA is to walk away. You can literally make more money working at McDonalds thatn you can as an instructor so sticking to your principles is NOT going to kill you. Staying in the game motivates a lot of new instructors to say YES to bad situations when actually saying NO to bad situations is your best bet to gain respect and therefore employability in the local area.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I felt the class too large, and that students were very rushed through; like only the instructor's time was important and mine wasnt.

I had some questions about the material the instructor didn't want to take any extra time to explain. Things like this.

I've had a lot of safety training in other fields which the classes were of similar time length, and the material was drilled into the students.

Maybe my expectations were too high for the very limited class time.

I don't think your expectations were too high. I think the bar for becoming an instructor is too low. The chances are quite good that if what you wanted to know wasn't in the training curriculum, your instructor probably couldn't have answered your questions anyway. I've met way too many who went straight from OW to instructor with the requisite number of dives and very little practical experience. They're like a child who can only color inside the lines ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I don't think I've personally had any "bad" training experiences. My OW course was excellent, my advanced course (same instructor) was excellent, etc.... in fact, all of the courses I've taken to date have taught me something new. Over the years I've also become pretty well connected and very picky about which instructor I ask to do what. My technical specialties were taken under several different instructors, all friends of mine, who I selected specifically because they were good at those particular specialties.

As an instructor I've seen some really poor instructing happening over several agencies and disciplines. The reason I work how I do now at the shop where I work now had to do with one of those. At a shop where I used to work the management of the shop decided a some point to focus on "quickie" courses. Most shops will do quickie courses if you want them too but that's not the normal mode. This particular shop, however, made a conscious decision to go into "price fighter" mode during the recession and the OW course was cut back to the absolute minimum number of steps and activities required by the letter of the standard.

If you do these really quick courses, then you need to change your focus as an instructor from avoiding problems by focusing a lot on things like buddy contact, communication, buoyancy control, and in-water comfort to solving problems by focusing your attention on emergency procedures, air sharing, CESA and surface skills.

This shop, however did neither of these things. Instructors were put on a strict time line that was so tight that there was no room for focusing on *anything*. Students were literally sitting on the bottom during the entire course and learning nothing. Mask problem? Their attitude was that it would work itself out after they were certified. Nervous? No time to deal with that. Not communicating? It's not in the standards that they need to communicate. Can't swim well enough to get through the CESA? literally grab onto them and drag them the 9 meters and then congratulate them on a job well done.

Theory? LOL.... you must be kidding. If they want to live they'll read the book. Just do the quizzes but since you do all 5 modules and the final exam in 2 hours, just give them the right answers for things that were wrong and tell them to read the book again on their own time.

I'm not exaggerating. They way they were doing it, the instructor had ZERO and I mean ZERO insight as to whether or not a student could even plan a dive. The shop also didn't allow for using touch (or the forerunner of touch) because it was too expensive, even though that would have helped a lot.

They asked me to help run this once and I wasn't aware that they were doing it like this. My focus is always to focus on prevention and I'm very particular about putting my focus on things like communication and buoyancy control. During the 1st pool session I noticed the shop's instructor and mastermind of this system, on the bottom of the pool during the entire lesson.

Meanwhile I started the session (as I always do) with swimming around, some hovering, some signing and getting used to being there. After that I did module 1 and part of module 2 but I parked one skill with one of the students because he was having trouble with his mask. My experience was that if a student is getting stressed out by not getting something (especially a mask skill) that hammering at it isn't the solution. I tried it again at the end of the session and he was still stressed out about it so I parked it and made a note to review it the following week.

This is normal.

The shop's instructor ripped me a new one for that after the session. In his opinion I was "wasting" a lot of time with swimming,which wasn't in the standards, and if the student wasn't getting a skill that I should push him until he got it mostly right at least once and then approve it so they don't lose time in the next session. There was no time for solving problems and by doing so I was hampering the entire course and putting them off schedule.

It escalated into a fight which ended with me telling him that with his insane system that there was absolutely no question in my mind IF he was going to kill someone, but WHEN. I quit after that session and never went back.

That was a very negative experience but what it taught me is that as an instructor it's on ME to set boundaries, to know what I will accept as working conditions and not, and to ensure that I have the room to deliver quality. I now work at a new shop that gives me that room. This shop also runs quickie courses but they wouldn't even think about asking me to run them.

R..

Things like this are common ... and the main reason why I chose to teach as an independent instructor. There's an inherent conflict of interest between dive shops and dive instruction, and it boils down to this ... quality costs money.

During my 12 years as an instructor I only spent one year working for a shop. And while I had other issues with the owner I will give him complete credit for ALWAYS backing me if I wanted to hold someone back and spend more time with them before passing them on any given skill. His attitude was that nobody ever wants to see one of their former students involved in a diving accident.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Diver0001]

Things like this are common ... and the main reason why I chose to teach as an independent instructor. There's an inherent conflict of interest between dive shops and dive instruction, and it boils down to this ... quality costs money.

During my 12 years as an instructor I only spent one year working for a shop. And while I had other issues with the owner I will give him complete credit for ALWAYS backing me if I wanted to hold someone back and spend more time with them before passing them on any given skill. His attitude was that nobody ever wants to see one of their former students involved in a diving accident.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Things like this are common ... and the main reason why I chose to teach as an independent instructor. There's an inherent conflict of interest between dive shops and dive instruction, and it boils down to this ... quality costs money.

During my 12 years as an instructor I only spent one year working for a shop. And while I had other issues with the owner I will give him complete credit for ALWAYS backing me if I wanted to hold someone back and spend more time with them before passing them on any given skill. His attitude was that nobody ever wants to see one of their former students involved in a diving accident.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Yeah I get that. I'm far too busy at my day job to free lance in this industry. I need someone to organize stuff or I would never get around to it..... What I've decided to do is to work as a free lance instructor at a shop that is owned and run by a close friend of mine who only asks me to do things I'm willing to do. I don't teach scuba for the money so all I want is access to his work bench and his nitrox compressor and the freedom to, as he puts it, "create divers".

The shop is also a travel agency that runs 10 or 15 trips a year all over the globe so the only divers he really profits from are active divers.... so as instructors we're not asked to work in a certification mill... we're asked to create active divers and preferably ones who want to travel. Obviously that's not always possible but we're given a lot of leeyway to run OW courses that will achieve that goal....

I like that.

R..

 

[Nikole]

Open water class was very rushed, several of us didn't understand the tables, it rained during the pool dives, and as a Padi diver you are OW certified to dive to 60ft OR tp the deepest you've gotten at your checkout dive, which for me was 25ft (checkout was at the springs).

 

[boulderjohn]

There are a LOT... and I mean a LOT .... of instructors who agree to do things that they KNOW isn't ok. I see this especially with young instructors who don't have the experience or the life-experience to know that other people will try to take advantage of them, or understand how to say no. One of the diseases of the scuba industry is that we have a massive glut of young instructors who all want a job and some of them are willing to do just about anything as long as they are working.

Things like this are common ... and the main reason why I chose to teach as an independent instructor. There's an inherent conflict of interest between dive shops and dive instruction, and it boils down to this ... quality costs money.

I was recently told by the Director of Training at the shop where I worked that (and, yes, this is a direct quote), "Instructors are a dime a dozen." He said he gets someone coming in and asking about openings for instructors about once every other week. Consequently, there is no need to pay them well, because if anyone complains about the low pay--well, the new person won't have any such complaints. That enables them to keep instructional costs low. They also have no reason to care about quality. People are getting certified successfully, some of them are going on to buy gear, and some of them are going on the shop's trips. No one cares if instructor A is doing a better job than instructor B, as long as the job gets done, so you had better not comment about the standards violations you witnessed in someone's class, no matter how egregious. Harmony in the ranks is more important than quality in the instruction.

But despite that, I think most instructors really do care about doing a good job, and most of them really do try to do the right thing. They just have to learn to accept their working conditions if they wish to continue dong that work.

 

[TMHeimer]

Open water class was very rushed, several of us didn't understand the tables, it rained during the pool dives, and as a Padi diver you are OW certified to dive to 60ft OR tp the deepest you've gotten at your checkout dive, which for me was 25ft (checkout was at the springs).

Tables can be a bit daunting at first. Especially if the class was rushed of course. There should (I assume) be a place in your manual or online stuff to re-study this stuff I guess. As for rain, it will happen on dives anyway, sometimes unexpectedly. For PADI the wording is like "Certified to a RECOMMENDED depth of 60' in conditions equal to or better than those which you were trained" (might not be exact, and possibly changed a little?). The "conditions" part, well, I guess that's all within reason at your discretion, and you can re-define acceptable conditions as you get more experience and see fit to do so. You are never "certified" per se to any depth-- it is just a recommendation. I have heard it is OK to go below 60' if with a Pro, or if you gradually attain experience by slowly increasing your depth. None of that to my knowledge is written anywhere by PADI, but again "recommended" covers all of that I guess. Most shore checkout dives are to 25' or so, then it's "OK" to be off to a 60' dive next day--no restriction to 25'. Like taking your driver's test on city streets then hitting the Interstate.