First time to 60 feet

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I don't believe in pony bottles personally, so I wouldn't worry about it, you are shallow enough for a CESA, you have a buddy, etc. I think that if you are concerned about redundant gas supplies you should go to an h-valve, doubles, or sidemount personally, but that's just my opinion on that.

Why not? Not to be argumentative, but...

A slung pony is completely redundant, secure and very easy to deploy. It can even be handed off to another diver.

CESA is a scary skill for a new diver and involves DCS risk. Buddies can get separated. H-valves aren't true redundancy and shutting down one first stage is a non-trivial skill. Same for doubles - a bit more redundant but not complete like a pony. Sidemount is redundant but requires new skills, not something that a new diver necessarily wants to learn at this point just to provide a redundant gas supply. And sidemount / doubles are often concerns with new divers who are gas limited - there is a tendency to drift past NDLs.
 
Lots of good advice here. I guess the biggest thing is using air a lot faster. I don't know about 60' for a CESA. I have heard some have done it from like 100', but I wouldn't want to assume I could do one from more than 30 --maybe 40 feet. I use my pony bottle very sparingly, and usually if below 80' with a buddy who may not be up to snuff. There is one other difference IMO--Most of my (solo) diving is 30 or less--maybe a little more. Basically glorified snorkeling. Unless entangled, I can always make it to the surface on a CESA and do one once in a while (though some say it is risky to practise CESAS). The deeper you go, I would think the more things can happen to get you in trouble or create panic. Not saying that to be scary, it just seems logical. When technical diving is discussed you always hear mention of risk assessment. That's even deeper, so it follows my reasoning.
 
Hello,
This is my first post on here but I feel like I need to ask some questions. I have been diving for about 3 months now. I am NAUI certified in SD, and NITROX. I am working on my Advanced cert and only have 2 dives left to do. I am going out this Saturday morning to dive 2 wrecks in Lake Erie. It will be my first boat dive as well as my first "deep" dive. Its not that deep but it will be my first time down to 60 feet. Previously I have not exceeded 35. I feel fairly comfortable with my abilities, I have great equipment and I intend on taking a redundant air source. I am a little scared about going to 60 feet and just want to know if any of you have any advice or could give me tips to help me relax and stay safe. Thanks

Hi Luke

Welcome. Great to see another freshwater shore diver

Ideally deeper dives are approached gradually and within the limits of a diver's comfort, although with a trusted instructor a 60 foot dive is widely considered appropriate.

The two things that matter most with a redundant air source are 1) that it be of sufficient capacity and 2) that you are practiced and comfortable using it.

On capacity, for dives within recreational limits, there are divergent views on what is sufficient. I use either a 13, 19, or 40cf cylinder depending on the situation. The very small "spare air" cylinders are 3 cubic feet or less and are widely considered insufficient for a safe ascent.

You should practice switching regs and ascending before relying on redundant air for a deep dive. This would also be a good time to dial in any weighting changes you need to maintain buoyancy and trim.

There have been several fatalities that resulted from divers mixing up their redundant air source with their primary air source, a risk that I don't believe is widely understood. There are sequences of events that can lead to this but the best example would be a diver who enters the water with their primary tank valve closed (a common mistake) but breathing from their pony cylinder due to a regulator mixup. Then an out of air emergency is sure to ensue once the air in the pony cylinder is exhausted.

Configuration choices affect the ease with which a regulator can be properly identified. Many divers here on Scubaboard, including me, use a "slung" pony that is clipped to the diver's side and carried with the cylinder valve shut. The regulator and hose are attached to the pony cylinder with elastic bands. This is a convenient system, and makes for a setup where it's almost impossible to mix up regulators.
 
Stay close to the instructor/DM. IME fellow student buddies tend to separate at various points in the dive, so the instructor is your secondary backup air source.

Leave the pony at home since you're probably not totally familiar with it. Best not to add variables in a new situation. Save that for a later date when you can practice using it in a controlled setting. Something as simple as forgetting to open the pony valve at the beginning of the dive could waste a lot of critical time and increase panic.

CESA at 60'? Doable but risky with a panicked diver.

Enjoy your dive and follow the instructor.
 
Why not? Not to be argumentative, but...

A slung pony is completely redundant, secure and very easy to deploy. It can even be handed off to another diver.

CESA is a scary skill for a new diver and involves DCS risk. Buddies can get separated. H-valves aren't true redundancy and shutting down one first stage is a non-trivial skill. Same for doubles - a bit more redundant but not complete like a pony. Sidemount is redundant but requires new skills, not something that a new diver necessarily wants to learn at this point just to provide a redundant gas supply. And sidemount / doubles are often concerns with new divers who are gas limited - there is a tendency to drift past NDLs.

no bendy risk, but an embolism risk if you don't do it properly. IIRC NAUI still requires it as a skill in OWT.

Here's my problem with pony bottles. If diving a pony bottle, it is not going to be my donate bottle because I donate out of my mouth. This means that my long hose is still on my backgas bottle and then the pony is the secondary on a suicide strap. Very annoying to deal with due to hose routing and you can't just pass it over to someone. Alternatively you can dive a normal reg configuration on your backgas and have the pony as something you can hand over, but now you need to donate normally, then get the OOA guy to switch bottles which is easier said than done. Means you now have to switch regulators which can get interesting depending on the situation. Not to say it can't be done, but probably more of a PITA than necessary.

If diving a mounted pony, then why not just dive doubles? Doesn't have to be manifolded doubles, can very easily be a set of independent doubles with cam band doubles bands so you can put any cylinder in there that you want and while a pair of mirrored valves is ideal, it isn't necessary.

Sidemount is ideal if you want fully independent cylinders though I don't like boat/shore diving with sidemount.

If you are diving deep enough that you need a large pony, I.e. 100ft, then I believe you should be diving doubles or sidemount anyway, and if you are carrying a sufficiently sized pony, I.e. minimum of 30cf for 100ft depth, then a set of double 80's or 72's isn't that much heavier or annoying. Any shallower than that, i.e. 60 ish ft, just do a CESA if you are dumb enough to run completely out of air or unlucky enough to have a total loss of gas, AND not be close to your buddy. Either of which are your fault for not having proper buddy diving technique.

All my personal opinion, harsh, but my opinion on the matter
 
When I took my kids for their first boat dive I said "Look at this boat, it's 26 feet. We are only going to be down about 3 times the length of this boat. No big deal"

It was not enough to make them not take the event seriously, but enough to put things in to perspective and make them not think they were remaking a Jules Verne movie.
 
When I took my kids for their first boat dive I said "Look at this boat, it's 26 feet. We are only going to be down about 3 times the length of this boat. No big deal"

It was not enough to make them not take the event seriously, but enough to put things in to perspective and make them not think they were remaking a Jules Verne movie.

Good Point!!
 
no bendy risk, but an embolism risk if you don't do it properly.

Of course there is a DCS risk from a CESA. You are rapidly decompressing with no safety stop, and far faster than the recommended ascent rate. It's probably minimal if you are practicing a skill and just descending and ascending, but if you do it late in a dive near your NDLs, why wouldn't that increase your decompression stress?

IIRC NAUI still requires it as a skill in OWT.

It's a required skill, but it's certainly a last choice for an OOG emergency (first choice would be another gas supply), so I wouldn't agree with the proposition that a diver doesn't need redundant gas because they can always CESA.

Here's my problem with pony bottles. If diving a pony bottle, it is not going to be my donate bottle because I donate out of my mouth. This means that my long hose is still on my backgas bottle and then the pony is the secondary on a suicide strap. Very annoying to deal with due to hose routing and you can't just pass it over to someone. Alternatively you can dive a normal reg configuration on your backgas and have the pony as something you can hand over, but now you need to donate normally, then get the OOA guy to switch bottles which is easier said than done. Means you now have to switch regulators which can get interesting depending on the situation. Not to say it can't be done, but probably more of a PITA than necessary.

I dunno, I think that you may be overthinking this. Leaving aside the specifics of the OP's planned dive, lets just consider a relatively new recreational diver with a single tank, who is diving a bit deeper than their comfort zone. The easiest single thing to add to their rig to address gas redundancy is a pony bottle, slung, with a second stage bungeed against the tank. That way, whether they are diving long hose or traditional configuration, if something happens to their primary gas supply (i.e. free flow, first stage failure, etc..), they can just grab the pony regulator. Tank open or closed is a controversy, but either way, it's nice to know that sitting at your side is a completely redundant gas supply. And this is for the individual diver, not for sharing. Slinging a pony doesn't mean that you can't donate your primary or have someone breath off of your octopus if you aren't running a long hose.

If diving a mounted pony, then why not just dive doubles? Doesn't have to be manifolded doubles, can very easily be a set of independent doubles with cam band doubles bands so you can put any cylinder in there that you want and while a pair of mirrored valves is ideal, it isn't necessary.

More cost, more weight, non-trivial skill set (manipulating back gas tank valves), especially in an emergency. Nothing simpler than a pony hanging under your left arm, with the valve and reg right were you can see and check them. It's such a simple, cheap, reliable solution. Plenty of dive ops will require them for single tank divers on deeper dives (that happens on some of our local boats, and was strongly suggested at Truk this year). Doesn't require assembling mismatched doubles with those slippery cam bands (have had them fall apart underwater), doesn't require messing with a bracket or finding a reg behind your back.

Sidemount is ideal if you want fully independent cylinders though I don't like boat/shore diving with sidemount.

Me neither.
 
...
I am NAUI certified in SD, and NITROX.
Welcome to the wonderful world of SCUBA. I hope you have many years of Safe and Fun SCUBA diving.
I am working on my Advanced cert and only have 2 dives left to do.
I assume your instructor is the one that certified you and knows you have not been deeper than 35 feet before. You need to be discussing these concerns with your SCUBA Instructor.
... It will be my first boat dive
No worries, it is literally like falling off a boat. Just listen to your instructor and do as he/she says. Boat dives are easier than beach dives.
... as well as my first "deep" dive....Its not that deep but it will be my first time down to 60 feet. Previously I have not exceeded 35...
60 feet is not a deep dive. Basic open water SCUBA instruction cannot take you on dives deeper than 60 feet during your training. Many instructors do take their students to the 50-60 foot range if suitable depth and diving conditions are available. You can do this with your current training. Just note that air at 60 feet is consumed faster than air at 30 feet. The deeper you go, the faster the air is used and the less No Decompression Limit (NDL) you have.

The advance course requires a deep dive. Deep dives are defined as dives made between 60 and not deeper that 130 feet, the limit of recreational diving.
When a diver says they are Certified as an ADVANCED SCUBA diver most divers and dive operators will expect they can and have dove to 100+ feet.

A pony bottle is not the answer on such a shallow dive and will not solve your basic concern of going to 60 feet. Adding more equipment is not the answer and I would always recommend doing some pool dives under instructor supervision when you add a new type of dive gear (such as pony bottle) to you can learn how to mount it and use it safely (how to mount, dealing with changes to your buoyancy and trim etc)
I feel fairly comfortable with my abilities,... I am a little scared about going to 60 feet...
These two statements are not in agreement. you are "scared about going to 60 feet" so you cannot be "comfortable" with your diving abilities. But you can get there from here. Discuss this with your instructor. He/she will most likely suggest easing into it by doing several dives each a tad deeper than the one before. I appreciate your honesty in saying you have concerns. You have an instructor, sit down and have an honest discussion with them now. Keep posting and let us know how it goes.
 
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The most important things about diving off a boat are 1. Actually make it off the boat. 2. Hold your mask and reg.
 
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