Dive computers... SO many choices!

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You're probably right, since we don't hear about divers using RGBM computers getting bent in large numbers on vacation. Nevertheless, the fact that they seem to have to fudge the algorithm the more you dive would appear to support the basic conclusion that the base-line algorithm isn't correctly calibrated. R..

It's no more of a fudge than Buhlmann-GF divers lowering there GF-Hi to be more conservative. From what I've read there isn't much evidence on how safe any algorithm is when used for multi-dives/day or multiple days in a row of diving. The fudge as you call it is simply a feature of RGBM's bubble model keeping very slow tissue's from feeding existing bubbles that could get close to the critical size on subsequent dives. It could also be said that RGBM recalibrates the algorithm for these multiple dives.
 
Two my dive buddies who are advanced divers and dive locally and do the caverns, ocean divees use the old old zoops and they seem to like it, it's simple and does the job. But since it's discontinued I had wondered that if it gets messed up or anything, would I be able to still get it serviced. I do have a small wrist...
Yes, you can still get it serviced, even if discontinued/discounted.

I do have a small wrist myself (I think it's smaller than my fianceé's). I just measured, it's 6.5" circumference. I did have the computer rotate on my during my OW checkout dive, on a 7 mm wetsuit sleeve. I think it was a combination of wetsuit compression and my small wrist. I plan to get the DSS bungee mount, which should fix that as well as make it more convenient to take on and off. Still, it may be too big for a small wrist even with a mount like that, since the face is almost 2.5" in diameter.
 
Short Bio about me first..
Open water diver
Nitrox certified
Live in Florida (which means I dive alot)
I plan on taking the advanced open water course. No cave, or tec diving, ever.

. . .

So my question is:
Exactly what type of *wrist* computer is appropriate for an advanced diver?
I want to buy something nice and suitable so that I don't feel the need to have to UPGRADE later on.

The extra features (digital compass, air integration, etc...) they sound very convenient but is it really worth the extra money?
Petrel (or the smaller Perdix) -see YouTube video suite:

Don't need extravagance of Air Integration; just use a simple "brass & glass" analog SPG on a 24" to 26" HP hose and clip it off in plain view as needed to a left shoulder BCD D-ring.
 
It's no more of a fudge than Buhlmann-GF divers lowering there GF-Hi to be more conservative. From what I've read there isn't much evidence on how safe any algorithm is when used for multi-dives/day or multiple days in a row of diving. The fudge as you call it is simply a feature of RGBM's bubble model keeping very slow tissue's from feeding existing bubbles that could get close to the critical size on subsequent dives. It could also be said that RGBM recalibrates the algorithm for these multiple dives.

Hi EFX. I'm not so sure about that. It's completely clear to everyone how a Buhlmann algorithm works and what affect of gradient factors have on the dive. Buhlmann doesn't work any differently on a repetitive dive than it does on the first one. The principles are the same, the calculations are the same and the parameters are the same. The only thing that changes is the residual tissue loading at the beginning of the dive.

Being proprietary, the working of the RGBM algorithm has to be treated as a black box. Nobody really knows for sure what it's doing under the hood, or how.

I would be convinced that it does the right amount of "fudging" if in a comparative "black box" test the algorithm were run through a long series of various types of repetitive scenarios and the adjusted NDL's were sufficiently similar to the calculations Buhlmann gives. This might not prove that RGBM is right because taking Buhlmann for "correct" might not be right, but such a test would at least convince me that if something is broken that they are both similarly broken and therefore one is not better than the other in this context.

As it is, what we CAN see is that bubble models tend to overload slow tissues in favour of making fast tissues very clean during the ascent. This is an inherent characteristic of the algorithmic approach that is shared by all bubble models. We also know that in a situation where you are making decompression dives, that this overloading can already reach the point during a sufficiently extreme single dive where there is an increased incidence of DCS as a result of this algorithmic error.

We also know that repetitive diving is mostly a problem with respect to slow tissues. Years ago (I don't know how old you are so this could have been before your time) PADI adjusted the shallow NDL's, drastically reducing them, because divers were getting bent using the tables on a long series of shallow repetitive dives. The problem was the handling of slow tissues. Ergo, since we know that slow tissues are the issue with respect to repetitive dives, then I would instinctively distrust an algorithm that has an inherent tendency to overload slow tissues.

Anyway, that's my logic. I'm not on an anti RGBM crusade but I will admit that I distrust it due to the complete and persistent lack of scientific verification. All the science that HAS been done (and it's not a lot) seems to point to it being broken.

So linking this to my previousl point, I think companies like Mares must know this but it's hard to know what they have done to "fudge" the algorithm so that recreational divers remain safe on repetitive dives. Not knowing what they've done makes me personally uncomfortable although I actually do trust Mares to have the interests of divers at heart and therefore do believe that they have done something to address this. Mares hasn't said that they did, but I've used the Mares Puck a lot in the last year or two because of teaching and I strongly suspect that what I'm seeing it do isn't pure RGBM, despite the marketing claims.

I guess you can put it this way. If you wanted to buy a car and you had a choice of (a) a car for which the exact workings of the motor were fully documented, you had complete instructions about how to adjust it and this type of motor was scientifically proven to be reliable or (b) a car for which there was no documentation at all about the workings of the motor the hood was welded shut and there was no testing to know if it was reliable or not. .... which car would you be more inclined to buy?

R..
 
The Perdix/Petrel display of the compartment loading is interesting to watch. I've been surprised to note on two LOB trips this summer, doing five dives daily on 32% with GF 40/85, how little accumulation of N2 there has been in the slow compartments over the course of the week.
 
Just be careful not to have the bungee cords so tight around your arm that the cord breaks through the holes on the mount.This happened to me twice with that DSS mount. There is not a whole lot of rubber around the holes.
I bought a Zoop. My thinking was it was the cheapest computer ($180 on Amazon) that didn't use a single button, cause I knew a single button would annoy the crap out of me (personal preference). It's not fancy, no gas switches but you can do nitrox. If you buy the $60 cable you can upload your dive logs to a computer.

I've only used it for my OW checkout dives to around 20 feet so far, so I'm just giving my reasoning for buying it. I'll test it again in a quarry in October when I go on my first "dive trip" (probably to 60 feet, possibly more as I'm planning to do some of the advanced class dives on the trip and we may do a deep dive as part of that).

I do already know I'm going to buy the bungee mount from DSS, cause I already had it rotate on me underwater, but I imagine any computer will tend to do that with neoprene compression and no elastic straps.
 
Buy a computer you can see in poor light and doesnt pretend to be a wrist watch. Vpmb or gf factors I prefer to rgbm but thats just me.
 
Buy a computer you can see in poor light and doesnt pretend to be a wrist watch. Vpmb or gf factors I prefer to rgbm but thats just me.
That is one of the main reasons I ask considering an upgrade of my computer- I did not realise how much more visible some of the screens are compared to others especially in low visibility (as is the vast majority of British diving)
 
Petrel (or the smaller Perdix) -see YouTube video suite:

Don't need extravagance of Air Integration; just use a simple "brass & glass" analog SPG on a 24" to 26" HP hose and clip it off in plain view as needed to a left shoulder BCD D-ring.
I liked it.. Wish he could out it on his wrist though.. So I can get an idea of how large it is but I will Google around for one.
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/teric/

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