User Guide and decompression information

[Freewillow]

@Bastian hund. I am with you on what you are saying . I would encourage ANY diver, at least once in his life, to go into at least one minute DECO so that he would understand how his computor works in such a situation. This is much better to "let it happen " as opposed to have to manage it because it happened by accident.

I am, on the other hand surprised to hear from Zeb that there is NO psychological barrier once you enter into DECO and at the same time he dived for 21 years without crossing the NDL; What an accomplishment. Why - because of the mental barrier........talk to my wife about it

I have been diving in a lot of places around the world and I can tell that in some places - especially atoll deep passes - in the Maldives or French Polynesia , you will have a tough - albeit very short - time to avoid the DECO mode. Just my experience.

When it commes to TEK diving, most people would consider that deco diving is not the definition. I would locate it at the level where different gases are used during the same dive, in order to make the deco more efficient/faster .

 

[Zef]

Bastianhund,
I think the reason why you do not see more discussion on the topic is because it is in the Suunto subforum....from the looks of it this subforum does not get much traffic, couple that with a thread title that I don't think appeals much to the average diver to open up and read. Your initial questions and concerns are really good but I don't think the topic is one that the average diver really wants to think about, read about, discuss. Hence your assessment that "95% or more of the recreational divers do not know how to use their computer to their fullest potential", which is pretty much the point I was making early on in this discussion thread.

Given that, I have downloaded and thoroughly read through the Zoop Novo and Vyper Novo User's Guides, and my opinion is that these two new computers are a simplified version of the previous models of Suunto puck style computers. The manuals describe that one should follow the direction of the computer to stop at or slightly below any ceiling depth indicated by the computer and stay there for the duration of the countdown timer it gives. In this way, I believe Suunto is catering to that 95% of the recreational divers you mentioned in your post above...they do not want an in-depth study of decompression and its procedures because they are typically not intending to find themselves in a decompression dive situation....they only want simple instructions from their computer to get back to the surface safely. To be honest, I think this is a welcome change for the average recreational diver....the little arrows that indicated floor, ceiling, etc, that was common on older models, may be of interest to those interested in the technical side of things but introduced a complexity of information that is not appealing to the average diver.

Also, I do not think Suunto intends nor should be responsible to give a discourse in decompression diving or even safe diving procedures through their User's Guide...nor do I think they intend for the Zoop and Vyper Novo computer to be used for anything but recreational type diving within NDLs with the exception that a diver may screw up or a situation may present itself underwater that causes a diver to inadvertently incur a decompression obligation....in this case, the less information to complicate things for the average diver the better as the diver will probably not be familiar with what to do in these scenarios nor be in a position to interpret much more than basic information....Suunto has reduced and simplified the information displayed to just enough for the diver to easily comprehend along the following lines: *go to the indicated depth and remain there for the indicated time before continuing the ascent to the next ceiling for the next stop or surface.*

Unfortunately for those of us who have older versions of the Suunto puck style computers(such as the Gekko, Vyper, Vytec, Vyper 2, Vyper Air, and even the Cobra series as they function on similar paramters), and who are already accustomed to the type of information that these computers provided, these new models may not be the "upgrade" that we are looking for when and if we want to replace our current computer.

Although more expensive, if one wants a similar style computer that is less simplified and provides more technical information then there is always the HelO2.

Suunto can be faulted for ignoring a section of their current market share, but after my thorough read of the the new user's guides, I think they have adequately explained how their new computer models function and how the diver should interpret the info displayed....it just lacks the amount of info one may be used to.

-Zef

 

[Freewillow]

Good remark Zeb. Some divers are very interested in Deco/computor function. It is enough to read the dozen of pages on deep stops and increased DCS somewhere else in the forum

 

[Zef]

Freewillow,
with each post you have added you have made yourself look increasingly foolish, first with the questions you ask and then with your suggestions. Almost everything you have posted on this thread leads one to question the veracity of your listed experience (Divemaster with 500-999 dives). You have either not thoroughly read my posts or you lack the ability to understand what I have written.

You have written that the computer indicating a theoretical ceiling is barrier to the diver attaining the surface akin to the physical overhead barrier a cave diver experiences. This is absolute rubish and makes you seem totally ignorant and incompetent. My sentiment is that the theoretical barrier is a consideration and should not be an outright cause for an increase in stress, especially if one has planned their dive properly. In the case that someone inadvertently goes into deco then obviously it is unplanned and they should follow the guidance their computer gives them should they be using a computer BUT if the situation requires them to attain the surface due to lack of air or for any other urgent matter then they could and should do so. This is wildly different than a diver in an overhead environment who physically can't attain the surface because of a very real physical barrier. The difference is that the diver doing a deco stop has the choice and liberty to live, the diver in the cave, if they did not plan their gas management adequately is going to die.

With some of the older Suunto computers (Vyper, Vyper 2, Vyper Air etc.) there is a simulation mode that one can use to simulate a non-deco as well as a deco dive. You can simulate ascending and descending in the water column for multi-level dives and watch how it affects your no-deco time or deco obligation. With this feature there is no need to actually go into deco on an actual dive to see how the computer responds and check out the info it shows...it can be done from the safety of one's living room. Perhaps Suunto should have included this feature on their new computers, or perhaps they should create a simulator for each of their computers and upload it to their website so folks can play around with it.

My guess is that the vast majority of divers never exceed the NDL for the dives they execute and my guess is they tend to never actually exceed the NDL...especially if they are not pushing their limits as all the agencies train divers not to do. Violating NDLs is not a badge of honor to brag about...surpassing NDLs during a dive should be something carefully planned and trained for or else it should be because there was no other safe choice.

I advocate for safe diving whatever genre the diver elects to engage. I advocate for divers to thoroughly know their equipment and understand the capabilities and limitations each piece of gear has. I advocate for divers to consider every dive a learning and training experience...One should exit the water a more competent, confident, and capable diver than they were when they entered the water.

Oh, and my screen name is not Zeb, it is ZEF...the amount of times you have typed it incorrectly just adds to my argument.

Keep contributing though, it makes for an amusing read and helps me both challenge and confirm my own assumptions about diving.

-zeF

 

[Freewillow]

Dear ZEF,

I am prepared to bet my tek computor - for sure NOT a Suunto - that you are NOT Belgian.

If you would be one, you would be familiar with the LIFRAS and the FFESSM for which DECO Diving is taught and practiced already at the N2 (second level). THEY ALL CONSIDER THEM TO BE RECREATIONAL DIVES

Out of your 50-99 dives within the DECO limit and your amateur NAUI Master Level, you are supposed to give me lessons and question my integrity. Out of your 71 posts and 10 Likes - compared to my 1140 posts and 249 likes - you really impress me.. FYI, I have 850+ dives and certainly more DECO dives @30/42 m than you have done in total. I agree, my number of dives does mean very little, unlike your 50-99 dives that show only one thing: you are not an experienced diver YET.

If you want to follow me on a different forum where I am more than respected for what I know and share with others, go here and read my 1862 posts - my pseudo there is Guyloup.

Please, read the following quote and think about it:


Ignorance is not bad faith. But persistence in ignorance is.
Joanna Russ

Keep contributing though, it makes for an amusing read

 

[Freewillow]

Some additional info, even if I know that definitions can vary between agencies:

DEFINITIONS AND TERMS USED BY IAND, INC./IANTD

Recreational Diving – all forms of diving intended for recreational purposes or instruction of recreational
divers, in which the diver has the option to dive. This includes both the most popular form of
recreational diving, sport diving; as well as technical diving, which is an advanced form of recreational
diving.

Sport Diving – the most common form of recreational diving. Sport diving is performed using either air or
Nitrox mixtures up to 50% oxygen on dives no deeper than 130 feet (39 meters). Sport divers qualified
as EANx Diver or Recreational Trimix Diver or higher may perform dives requiring decompression on
bottom mix of up to 3 minutes, those qualified to the level of Advanced EANx or Advanced
Recreational Trimix may engage in dives requiring up 15 minutes of decompression time using EAN
50. Advanced EANx may dive to 140 fsw (42 msw) and Advanced Recreational Trimix may dive to 150
fsw (45 msw)

Technical Diving – an advanced form of recreational diving utilizing skills, techniques, equipment and
knowledge beyond the requirements of sport diving. Technical diving includes, but is not limited to,
dives deeper than 130 feet (39 meters), dives into overhead environments beyond a visible exit point,
dives using mixed gas (in addition to sport diving EANx mixtures), and dives requiring staged
decompression using high EANx mixtures exceeding 50% and or Oxygen.

Commercial Diving – a form of diving, excluding instruction, where the diver works for hire and his/her
employment depends on a willingness to dive.

 

[Zef]

Please forgive my ignorance.

-Zef

 

[Freewillow]

No problem Zef,

Safe and enjoyable diving to you.

 

[Diving Dubai]

@Freewillow

This PDF from Suunto explains fully their RGMB algorithm and the relationships between deco ceiling and floor as applied to their computers. Quite informative without being overly boring

http://ns.suunto.com/pdf/Suunto_Dive_Fused_RGBM_brochure_EN.pdf

 

[Freewillow]

Thank you Diving DubaÏ. Very clear text.

I do not love some "RGBM" based computors. I had a Cressi Leobardo that I got rid off pretty fast. Too conservative and could not understand that the diver was getting shallower If you are interested, read here