When does diving become "ridiculous"?

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Some non divers (my mother in law) - think going under water - OW diving - is ridiculous... Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and perception is reality... :)

True enough. It's all a matter of degree isn't it. Many folks look at "my diving" as being "extreme". I think of it as "every Saturday". Certainly nobody just starts diving like these guys. They have worked up to it in tiny steps I imagine, so perhaps it's just becoming more and more comfortable in more and more "extreme" environments. I suppose one of the benefits of the rehashing in these accident threads is that it causes all of us to "take stock" of the way we dive, no matter how "ordinary" it is.
 
@Stoo There will always be bad days, there is the possibility that a dive can go so wrong that you can't plan for it and you're going to eat it, but those are very rare

Also true! As a dedicated open water guy, I always figure that if the "excrement hits the oscillator", I can swim for it. That "swim" may well result in injury, and possibly death, but to quote a hyperbaric Doctor friend, "We can fix "bent". We can't fix "dead"!" A bit of an oversimplification of course, but 250' of rock makes for a tough direct ascent.

And again, I understand the lure of cave diving, and I completely understand how good planning, good gear and a good mindset can make for an awesome dive. But then somewhere out on the fringe, there's dives like this one, where any one thing going amiss can serve as the spark to set off a string of unimaginably difficult events to resolve. Which gets back to my original question, of when does "this" sort of diving become just too much.
 
What I don't understand is why someone would choose to undertake a dive that has zero room for error.
I had the same thoughts when I followed the Plura accident and subsequent recovery operation.

Getting older does tend to come with an increased sense of our own mortality.
For me, that happened when we had our first child. These days, I joke wryly that 20-somethings are immortal. So was I, but I'm past that.
 
Well, what the Eagle Nest divers had happen (a diver losing their entire rig) was an unexpected unforeseen catastrophe. They took aggressive and decisive action to deal with this and came pretty close to making it out despite other issues. But it was a catastrophe that I'm sure they had never considered and certainly wasn't covered in their planning.
 
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Like many others, I have been watching this thread on the recent fatalities at Eagles Nest. I have done a lot of diving over the years, but this particular dive is so far beyond what I do, I simply can't even comprehend what goes into the planning and execution of a dive like that. Beyond that, I don't really understand the point of undertaking such a risky venture, when there is no benefit to it, other than to make a cool entry in a log book. There is nothing new being learned as it's not "exploration". EN has been thoroughly dived and "mostly" mapped and so this dive, as monumental as it was, really served no point. In return, two guys (who are likely friends of friends, although I don't know them personally) are dead under horrific circumstances. Numerous rescue/recovery divers risked their lives to recover their bodies and equipment and a few weeks from now, this will all be forgotten. I don't want to come across as being critical of these divers or this specific dive, but use it as an example.

I should add that I "get" the appeal of cave diving. Two of my oldest friends are well-known figures in the cave diving world and if I name-dropped, you would know them too. Many of my friends are tourist cave divers, making a trip or two a year to Florida or Mexico. While I prefer pretty fish and sunshine, I understand the appeal of spending an hour or two moving though Mother Earth as one of my friends would say.

What I don't understand is why someone would choose to undertake a dive that has zero room for error. By all accounts, these two divers were well-trained and experienced, and properly equipped. They didn't do anything especially "wrong" it seems, but non the less, they are dead. They aren't the first and they won't be the last. I lost a friend in the caves a few years ago, his death being the result of a careless moment and a bad attitude, but that's a whole other conversation.

So why do some of "us" choose to do this kind of diving? It seems selfish to me. Friends are hurt, Families are destroyed. Kids are made orphans. Spouses are left wondering why "we" put diving ahead of them...

I understand that any of us can die driving to work, or slipping in the shower. I've logged well over 5000 dives, mostly what I would describe as "techreational"... deeper recreational dives that require deco. These dives have consequences if I mess up, but the risk is manageable, and even if I mess up a little, there's a pretty good chance that I can muddle my way through and make it home in time for dinner.

I doubt that I am alone in my wondering. I presume there is an adrenaline factor in all of this. Or just the satisfaction of a "good plan, well executed". Maybe the pleasure only comes from knowing there is significant risk and zero room for error. Like BASE jumping. Jumping out of a plane isn't buzz enough, so jump off a cliff in a wingsuit and see how close you can come to the rocks/trees/building/antenna. Good fun until you "auger in" and end up like a bug on a windshield.

I don't get it. Maybe I'm just getting old.
Like many others, I have been watching this thread on the recent fatalities at Eagles Nest. I have done a lot of diving over the years, but this particular dive is so far beyond what I do, I simply can't even comprehend what goes into the planning and execution of a dive like that. Beyond that, I don't really understand the point of undertaking such a risky venture, when there is no benefit to it, other than to make a cool entry in a log book. There is nothing new being learned as it's not "exploration". EN has been thoroughly dived and "mostly" mapped and so this dive, as monumental as it was, really served no point. In return, two guys (who are likely friends of friends, although I don't know them personally) are dead under horrific circumstances. Numerous rescue/recovery divers risked their lives to recover their bodies and equipment and a few weeks from now, this will all be forgotten. I don't want to come across as being critical of these divers or this specific dive, but use it as an example.

I should add that I "get" the appeal of cave diving. Two of my oldest friends are well-known figures in the cave diving world and if I name-dropped, you would know them too. Many of my friends are tourist cave divers, making a trip or two a year to Florida or Mexico. While I prefer pretty fish and sunshine, I understand the appeal of spending an hour or two moving though Mother Earth as one of my friends would say.

What I don't understand is why someone would choose to undertake a dive that has zero room for error. By all accounts, these two divers were well-trained and experienced, and properly equipped. They didn't do anything especially "wrong" it seems, but non the less, they are dead. They aren't the first and they won't be the last. I lost a friend in the caves a few years ago, his death being the result of a careless moment and a bad attitude, but that's a whole other conversation.

So why do some of "us" choose to do this kind of diving? It seems selfish to me. Friends are hurt, Families are destroyed. Kids are made orphans. Spouses are left wondering why "we" put diving ahead of them...

I understand that any of us can die driving to work, or slipping in the shower. I've logged well over 5000 dives, mostly what I would describe as "techreational"... deeper recreational dives that require deco. These dives have consequences if I mess up, but the risk is manageable, and even if I mess up a little, there's a pretty good chance that I can muddle my way through and make it home in time for dinner.

I doubt that I am alone in my wondering. I presume there is an adrenaline factor in all of this. Or just the satisfaction of a "good plan, well executed". Maybe the pleasure only comes from knowing there is significant risk and zero room for error. Like BASE jumping. Jumping out of a plane isn't buzz enough, so jump off a cliff in a wingsuit and see how close you can come to the rocks/trees/building/antenna. Good fun until you "auger in" and end up like a bug on a windshield.

I don't get it. Maybe I'm just getting old.
"Because it's there" - George Mallory
 
"Because it's there" - George Mallory
Look how that ended up.
 
But George Mallory name lives forever.
Annapurna was the first 8000m peak to have been climbed successfully by a French team in 1950. Most people probably remember Maurice Herzog but who was his partner?

Louis Lachenal.
 
"Because it's there" - George Mallory
Look how that ended up.

Although........guy was born 140 years ago and we still know who he is.

The human thirst for excellence, for knowledge, every step up the ladder of science, and every adventurous reach into the unknown, has at its foundation been "Because it is there". There is one thing that has elevated our species above its origins, and that is our courage.
 
A few of the mainstream news articles analogized EN to Mt. Everest, but I have a hard time with that--even apart from the question of relative difficulty. The view from Everest is surely like nothing else on the planet. And there is a summit--a distinct goal--not just some route along so many thousand feet of passage until you have to turn around. From the videos I have seen, EN is far from the prettiest cave in the world. I could understand the allure of EN if it really was as spectacular as Everest. So on the one hand that leaves me wondering how a cave of this level of difficulty can be worth the effort. On the other hand, I understand that some cave divers are attracted to the sheer challenge--they enjoy all the planning, logistics, and execution, apart from what there is to see in the cave. From what I have read, EN offers both a challenge and interesting sights.

If I ever do get cave certified, I'm going to focus on getting the most cave beauty for the least amount of difficulty.
 
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