How safe are you? - A thought exercise

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jzipfel

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My profession is safety and have been teaching chemical spill response (HAZWOPER) for about 30 years. There is an amazing amount of crossover between HAWOPER and SCUBA. Plans, rule of thirds, suits to protect you from bad environments, communication, etc. After reading many threads recently about tragedies, near misses and accidents it occurred to me that there are different approaches to safety.

So I wanted to post a little thought exercise and see how people approach safety. This exercise is based on chemical spill response, but I will post later what I know to be correct and why. I hope others post their thoughts too.

Scenario:
You are entering a chemical spill in a high level of personal protective equipment;SCBA & chemical protective suits ( i am being somewhat vague on exact gear for a reason). You also have a back up team and a decontamination team.

Question:
Should your back up team be dressed EXACTLY like you and your buddy?
Should your backup team be dressed in a higher level of equipment in case the SHTF?
Should your back up team just be there to call for some one more qualified to help if SHTF?
Should you send the back up team in to save your A$$, but only after another back up team has been suited up if both teams need help.

If you are familiar with HAZWOPER, you know the answer (I'm talkin to you Mike of DRIS). But I would like to hear what folks think they would want/do if they were the ones dressed as the entry team.

Trust me here, there REALLY is a parallel to SCUBA at all levels.
 
This is quite interesting and while I'm not a professional rescuer / emergency provider in any sense I thought I would answer just to see if I would have the proper thought process in such a situation.

Question:
Should your back up team be dressed EXACTLY like you and your buddy?
Answer: I would say no, they should be dressed in a higher level of protection / equipment in case something unexpected was encountered.
Should your backup team be dressed in a higher level of equipment in case the SHTF?
Answer: I would say yes, for the same reason I stated in the first question, in case something unexpected was encountered they should be ready to react to it and not have to waste time having to re configuring equipment.
Should your back up team just be there to call for some one more qualified to help if SHTF?
Answer: I say no. After all why have a back up team if they are not there to back you up? I would add though that if the SHTF and they found themselves in a situation beyond their abilities they should re group and if needed call in more qualified help. In the mean time they could do what they could without putting themselves at a greater risk.
Should you send the back up team in to save your A$$, but only after another back up team has been suited up if both teams need help.
Answer: I would say yes, but only after a second team is readied just in case.

So would it have been a successful rescue or did I fail completly?
 
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Scenario:
You are entering a chemical spill in a high level of personal protective equipment;SCBA & chemical protective suits ( i am being somewhat vague on exact gear for a reason

You are probably going to have to give a little more clarification of the situation before anyone can give you a sensible answer.
  1. Is the chemical spill flammable?
  2. Is the chemical spill explosive?
  3. Is the chemical spill toxic to the environment or humans?
  4. Does the chemical spill require evacuation of the area?
  5. Is the spill limited to the immediate area?
  6. Has anyone been injured by the spill and not evacuated for treatment?
  7. Is anyone trapped by the spill?
  8. Is there a biologic concern to the chemicals?
These are a few questions that come to mind. I am sure there are others. I feel relatively confident of my ability to respond if I had your knowledge of the circumstances. Why don't you just go ahead and give us the benefit of your knowledge?
 
You are probably going to have to give a little more clarification of the situation before anyone can give you a sensible answer.
  1. Is the chemical spill flammable?
  2. Is the chemical spill explosive?
  3. Is the chemical spill toxic to the environment or humans?
  4. Does the chemical spill require evacuation of the area?
  5. Is the spill limited to the immediate area?
  6. Has anyone been injured by the spill and not evacuated for treatment?
  7. Is anyone trapped by the spill?
  8. Is there a biologic concern to the chemicals?
These are a few questions that come to mind. I am sure there are others. I feel relatively confident of my ability to respond if I had your knowledge of the circumstances. Why don't you just go ahead and give us the benefit of your knowledge?


Good questions, however, the answers to mine would not change AT ALL even if I did provide those details.

I will modify to say that in this scenario you are not a fire department. Different risk profile.

Hmmmm
 
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My opinion: question one = yes, the rest = no. You should not go in there without the best equipment, education and knowledge available to you. You should never rely on your teammates to save your life, exposing them to uneccesary danger. In every circumstance you should plan to at least to get out of a bad situation by yourself, or else not go in.

This is at least how I treat every dive I do. But in my experience a lot of people rely on others to be save. Not good imo.
 
Very interesting question.

Should your back up team be dressed EXACTLY like you and your buddy?
Depends but in most cases, yes.
Should your backup team be dressed in a higher level of equipment in case the SHTF?
Depends on answer #1 as overdressed could be a big a hindrance in rescue as under dressed.
Should your back up team just be there to call for some one more qualified to help if SHTF?
Absolutely not. As a backup team, they are expected to be as trained as the primary team and all are expected to be trained in rescue. The Backup team is there to act providing their actions don't increase the rescue load, they are equipped and trained in the new threat and capable of affecting the rescue. Calling for assistance is the responsibility of incident management which should happen as soon as the SHTF.
Should you send the back up team in to save your A$$, but only after another back up team has been suited up if both teams need help.
No. Even a fully suited backup team will take time to reach the threat during which the 3rd team can finish preparing. In my S&R team, we will deploy a primary diver, have the backup as a 95% (fully dressed with mask and fins in hand, sitting near or in the water) and an 80% diver with gear ready and already in suit.
.
 
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I certainly have no idea how your professional training standards dictate your teams behaviour. As a former emergency first responder I could take a guess, but country to country things are barely standardized and multidisciplinary teams are fantastic to try to coordinate.

Now, this is in the basic scuba forum. I'd like to remind that we are recreational divers. Yes diving can be done with similar rigorous protocols to scba in hazardous conditions. However, as soon as I'd start diving like that I'd expect to be paid well. Recreation is fun and the risks are part of the freedom we are allowed in our play.

Enjoy your diving,
Cameron

As I continue to think on it, I would appreciate your perspective on the parallels you have adopted and perhaps they can help us become safer divers.
 
my background is in things like hazmat, EMS, tactical response, special operations, PSD. I spend most of my time training police and fire and EMS.
There are parallels between training in that world and scuba. But there is a HUGE difference.
Diving is FUN! This is a recreational sport that competes with other activities for the consumer's pocketbook. Emergency Services is not fun (well it is...but different). There is a different emphasis and focus that does not cross over to recreational.
What is a good example of a crossover is 1) emphasis on attention to detail, 2) the importance of consistent processes and procedures, and, 3) situational awareness. When i teach recreational dive students i focus on development of both great dive skills and a ninja mindset. For me, that is the common thread.
 
So I wanted to post a little thought exercise and see how people approach safety. This exercise is based on chemical spill response, but I will post later what I know to be correct and why. I hope others post their thoughts too.

Scenario:
You are entering a chemical spill in a high level of personal protective equipment;SCBA & chemical protective suits ( i am being somewhat vague on exact gear for a reason). You also have a back up team and a decontamination team.

Question:
Should your back up team be dressed EXACTLY like you and your buddy?
Should your backup team be dressed in a higher level of equipment in case the SHTF?
Should your back up team just be there to call for some one more qualified to help if SHTF?
Should you send the back up team in to save your A$$, but only after another back up team has been suited up if both teams need help.

There are important differences between recreational and occupational/ exposures (industrial or fire/rescue):
- Recreational SCUBA is traditionally based on a buddy team, with many dives being conducted solo. Occupational exposures typically involve larger teams divided into buddy pairs or into rescuer/tender pairs. The key difference being that there is a support team outside the hazardous environment
- Recreational SCUBA safety is based on individual judgment and experience. Occupational safety is based on regulatory oversight and strict procedures
- Recreational SCUBA allows any diver to thumb the dive at any point for any reason or no reason, without consequences. For occupational exposures this isn't entirely true

So, not the same, if I treated your question the way I treat a dive, I'd go in by myself and walk through the shower on the way out. Not an approach that makes sense, obviously, because the hazards, motivations, and resources are all vastly different.
 
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