Which cave has killed the most divers?

[undrwater]

"Private Property" is probably the best answer in the thread.

 

[mdb]

Wreck diving community is largely ok with Andria Doria being known as the "Mount Everest" of wreck diving. There is still debate whether Doria deserves that term or not but there are charters that advertise their trips using that term because the title brings in divers from all over the world. One NJ boat charter also lists the names of all divers who died diving the Andrea Doria on their site and if you are able to find him on his website you will see that the list of names is followed by ...

Death Is Nothing At All

Death is nothing at all...I have only
slipped away into the next room...I am I,
and you are you...whatever we were to
each other that we are still. Call me by
my old familiar name; speak to me in the
easy way which you always used. Put no
difference into your tone; wear no forced
air of solemnity or sorrow. Laugh as we
always laughed at the little jokes we
enjoyed together. Play, smile, think of
me, and pray for me.

I also remember the line from "Shadow Divers" which goes something like "Everyone who does deep wreck diving will either die, see someone die or come very close to death himself." My instructor was inspired by the Shadow Divers to take up wreck diving and so is an entire generation of wreck divers. I am thinking of a conversation in which I am trying to convince Robert Kurson not to write his famous novel because it will be bad for wreck diving. I really do not know where to begin such a talk.

This thread has convinced me that there is no equivalent of K2 in caves so there is no equivalent of Edmund Hillary in cave diving. This makes cave divers totally unworthy of a movie. Next time someone asks why are there no good movies on diving then this thread can be pulled as a reference.

Nice post Captain.

I do think the equivalent of a Sir Edmund Hillary is part of the cave diving community.

Perhaps you are one-or Lamar Hires, and many others, who you know.

I have been diving deep open water wrecks. Fun and fascinating.

The idea of cave diving is way above my pay grade.

I salute all you who do. I try to learn from the posts.

 

[boulderjohn]

What is it specifically about caves that motivates victims' families to move to close a cave?

It's not just mountaineering. Where I live is one of the primo rock climbing areas in the world, and I know people who have moved here for the purpose of being near our cliffs. Every year people die, oftentimes people who did not have the expertise or the equipment to be doing the kind of climbs they were attempting. One of my sons recently told me about a near death experience he had while in the brain damaged period we call teenage life. Yet, we never hear a murmur about closing access to these sites. I have no idea why they are viewed differently from caves.

Let's look at the Christmas 2013 Eagles Nest episode as an example of what I mean. In it, a man who was only OW certified bought new cave diving equipment for him and for his son, who was 15 years old and not even certified to dive, gave his son new diving equipment for Christmas. We learned later that they had been diving some of Florida's caves without the required certification during the past year. They went right to Eagle's Nest and entered the cave with a single set of doubles and an AL 80 each with with EANx 32 for decompression. Taking a reasonable guess on the bottom time they would have needed to empty their doubles, I would guess that they would have needed twice as much EANx 32 to decompress is they had with them. I hope anyone with any sense of diving would see how ill prepared, ill trained, and ill equipped they were for this dive.

And yet when they died, the family called for closing the cave. If you go to the first reports of the most recent deaths at Eagles Nest and read the comments, you will see they are at it again, calling for its closing. They say, pretty much in so many words, that the deaths of their two relatives were not their fault--it was just a cave that is too dangerous for anyone to dive. They are in complete and total denial about those deaths and where the true responsibility lay. If those two could not have dived there safely, then no one could have dived there safely.

 

[lowviz]

...//... This makes cave divers totally unworthy of a movie. ...

There is that self-importance again. On one pan we have the most accomplished cave divers, on the other a movie. In which direction will the scale tip?

...//...Next time someone asks why are there no good movies on diving then this thread can be pulled as a reference. ...

Reference? A disparate bunch of divers expressing their own opinions hardly constitutes a peer reviewed work. How could this thread ever be considered reference material ?

My intention is to show you a few possible unintended consequences of your intended actions.

 

[Diving Dubai]

People demonize things they either don't understand, or things they have no knowledge or experience of.

The family of the father and son refuse to accept that the responsibility for the deaths of the father and teh son themselves, indeed you could extend that to other close family members who had a parental responsibility. The problem here is that no one dare call them out for fear of comming accross as heartless

Every time their is an air incident, I get furious with the stupid comments and speculation, because it's ill informed with little basis of real facts

In the media (and the "pub") I get just as upset at the hatred against Muslims. I've lived in 3 Muslim countries and know the real facts.

I understand the Cave community getting on their high horse about a film they perceive may show a negative light on their hobby - but think. It could also demonstrate the amount of preparation that goes into cave diving, the work of the recovery teams - it could work in a positive constructive way and make people think.

 

[boulderjohn]

I understand the Cave community getting on their high horse about a film they perceive may show a negative light on their hobby - but think. It could also demonstrate the amount of preparation that goes into cave diving, the work of the recovery teams - it could work in a positive constructive way and make people think.

It could, and you do not see me simply ripping on the idea of a movie. I had high hopes for the movie Sanctum, which turned out to be a total dog of a movie. It was not a dog because of the cave diving, it was just a really bad movie. If a movie like this is made, I would have high hopes for it as well. I just hope that if such a movie were made, it would be done with consultation from highly qualified cave divers who can make sure it is done with some semblance of realism.

 

[Diving Dubai]

It could, and you do not see me simply ripping on the idea of a movie. I had high hopes for the movie Sanctum, which turned out to be a total dog of a movie. It was not a dog because of the cave diving, it was just a really bad movie. If a movie like this is made, I would have high hopes for it as well. I just hope that if such a movie were made, it would be done with consultation from highly qualified cave divers who can make sure it is done with some semblance of realism.

You would hope, and that's reasonable. Unfortunately often the consultants get ignored as the truth doesn't make for good drama and the investors want a return for their money. There is a fine line which needs to be trodden and low budget films often treat this type of subject in the most respectful manner

 

[tursiops]

I think what we are all afraid of is another Jaws, which was well intended but had the unintended consequence of devastating some water sports and misinforming an entire generation. Even the author has now disavowed it and apologized. It was well made, well acted, a riveting story, etc. You can't blame lack of quality.

 

[Jack Hammer]

One in fourteen...

 

[RyanT]

And yet when they died, the family called for closing the cave. If you go to the first reports of the most recent deaths at Eagles Nest and read the comments, you will see they are at it again, calling for its closing. They say, pretty much in so many words, that the deaths of their two relatives were not their fault--it was just a cave that is too dangerous for anyone to dive. They are in complete and total denial about those deaths and where the true responsibility lay. If those two could not have dived there safely, then no one could have dived there safely.

Well spoken, thank you John.