If an individual who is over 60 (one who is in better shape than most half his age) obtains a dive instructor rating overseas, which countries would allow that individual to obtain work visa to pursue that line of work? I was told that St Martin immigration in Caribbean, for example, would not allow... How is it elswhere? I would never apply for any job online nowadays; I must do it in person because of stereotypical age discrimination. Such a thing didn't keep ones like Jacques Cousteau or Tom Mount etc from diving, but today's world is different.
Age Discrimination
- Thread starter Aguablanco1
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insurance i would guess.
OP
For my purposes it is discrimination and it doesn't matter that it is occurring offshore as it is happening to my group of divers. To paraphrase, we don't need no stinking lawyers! I have a money clip, and a forum here, that is much more powerful than any group of lawyers. I was never trying to imply that there would be legal consequences, that would be ridiculous. Economic consequences are much quicker to attain and seem to be more forceful. I certainly never expected the cruise line to get involved because they have no skin in the game as they would prefer we use their overcrowded and overpriced shore excursions. My sole intent was to inform the members here of the situation and let each person decide which dive op they would use.
RichH
R
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Guest
Interesting. Do you think a USA dive op would get away with a written policy of no women (or Jews or blacks) allowed?
But I do think that if they could defend the policy on a medical risk basis they could probably get away with it, if anybody decided to challenge it in court.
OP
"Whether "ridiculous" or not, I have yet to see an explanation of why it would be illegal even in the US."
Maybe because it is a totally arbitrary number with absolutely no data to back it up. Seems that most of the reports of health related deaths involve people much younger than 70 so it would seem that the requirement should be some number that can be supported by facts, and at a much younger age. How about using Body Mass Index or some other quantifiable means? DAN says that the 4 most common reasons for divers dying are poor health, procedural errors, environmental issues and equipment problems. 50% of the fatalities happened with people with less than 20 dives. Maybe dive ops shouldn't take anyone out with less than 20 dives, that appears to be able to save more lives than an age limit. Just to keep the record straight, I never mentioned the legality of the discrimination, I was just pointing out the arbitrary nature of using age to assess ability. BTW It would be illegal in the US to deny a 70 year old dive instructor a job based on his age since the Age Discrimination in Employment Act was passed in 1967.
RichH
Maybe because it is a totally arbitrary number with absolutely no data to back it up. Seems that most of the reports of health related deaths involve people much younger than 70 so it would seem that the requirement should be some number that can be supported by facts, and at a much younger age. How about using Body Mass Index or some other quantifiable means? DAN says that the 4 most common reasons for divers dying are poor health, procedural errors, environmental issues and equipment problems. 50% of the fatalities happened with people with less than 20 dives. Maybe dive ops shouldn't take anyone out with less than 20 dives, that appears to be able to save more lives than an age limit. Just to keep the record straight, I never mentioned the legality of the discrimination, I was just pointing out the arbitrary nature of using age to assess ability. BTW It would be illegal in the US to deny a 70 year old dive instructor a job based on his age since the Age Discrimination in Employment Act was passed in 1967.
RichH
After DAN published an article on the apparent lack of fitness of dive victims based on BMI, I wrote a letter to the editor regarding the accuracy of the BMI as a determining factor for an individual. In response, they wrote a long and well-researched article describing the various ways one can measure fitness. The conclusion of the article was that the BMI was absolutely the worst method to measure fitness. It is only popular because it is so very easy to do. It is useful for looking at trends in large populations because individual variations will even out, but it can be extremely inaccurate when used on an individual.
That is because it takes what it considers to be an ideal proportion of weight and height and assumes that any weight above that ideal is the result of added fat. A person who does any real exercise and adds muscle will be regarded as overweight. That supposed ideal is close to anorexic. Years ago, when I was in better shape than I am now, I had a hydrostatic body fat measurement done, and that is the most accurate. The accompanying analysis included an estimate of what my body fat index would be if I lost specific amounts of weight solely by losing fat. According to that analysis, I could not get to the BMI ideal without going below 0% body fat or, obviously, lose muscle mass, too. As long as I had the muscle mass I had, I would be not only overweight according to the BMI, I would be significantly overweight.
The incredibly fit MVP of the last Super Bowl, Vonn Miller, is obese as measured by the BMI.
OP
"The incredibly fit MVP of the last Super Bowl, Vonn Miller, is obese as measured by the BMI."
boulderjohn, That was exactly the point I was trying to make. Trying to predict when a diver will have a medical event while diving is like trying to predict when the next earthquake will happen. How could anyone hold a dive op responsible for something like a heart attack or stroke, or for that matter, any health related issues, especially if they weren't disclosed to the dive op?
RichH
boulderjohn, That was exactly the point I was trying to make. Trying to predict when a diver will have a medical event while diving is like trying to predict when the next earthquake will happen. How could anyone hold a dive op responsible for something like a heart attack or stroke, or for that matter, any health related issues, especially if they weren't disclosed to the dive op?
RichH
I do not really agree that BMI is useless for predicting physical fitness. Pro athletes on steroids and growth hormones are not your average individuals. For the bulk of the population at large BMI is a useful measure. As to the fella in the fooseball uniform, lets check him out when he is 70. I hope he looks that good but most retired pro players have brain damage, physical limitations from injuries and are not physically fit. Fit maybe now but not fit for life.
Choosing 70 is arbitrary and discriminatory. I am quite okay with a BMI discrimination if we are going to have age discrimination. I see 30 year olds who have no fitness, their butts weigh more than I do, they are at least as dangerous to themselves as a 70 year old who is not obese. I am not 70 (yet, got a few years) but at 62 my resting pulse is below 40BPM and I am far less likely to have a cardiac event than most of the people out there half my age.
What is physical fitness. For me it is the ability to do anything I want easily and without effort. I work out so that things I enjoy doing like SCUBA, kayaking, hiking or whatever are effortless, so that I am not a prisoner to my body. Swim, bike, run, strength. Fit for life.
N
Choosing 70 is arbitrary and discriminatory. I am quite okay with a BMI discrimination if we are going to have age discrimination. I see 30 year olds who have no fitness, their butts weigh more than I do, they are at least as dangerous to themselves as a 70 year old who is not obese. I am not 70 (yet, got a few years) but at 62 my resting pulse is below 40BPM and I am far less likely to have a cardiac event than most of the people out there half my age.
What is physical fitness. For me it is the ability to do anything I want easily and without effort. I work out so that things I enjoy doing like SCUBA, kayaking, hiking or whatever are effortless, so that I am not a prisoner to my body. Swim, bike, run, strength. Fit for life.
N
There are laws specifically prohibiting discrimination in many facets of our lives, including in public accommodations--businesses open to the public--on the basis of race and gender. I have no expertise in this area, but I'm not aware of any reason under US federal law why a business could not choose to discriminate among its customers based on age. For example: "We refuse to serve anyone under 18." Now, there are some federal age discrimination laws in specific areas, such as employment and education, but I'm not aware of any sort of broad federal age-based anti-discrimination law like there is for race-based and gender-based discrimination. Of course, there may be state laws or even local laws--I'd be willing to bet there are in many if not most states. And none of this is to say it would be a good idea from a business perspective. Just seeing the animosity in this thread toward a dive business that discriminates based on age shows it is likely to hurt their business.
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