Cave Certs Expiration

[tbone1004]

cavern alone I think is useless, and I think the limits of intro to cave are absurd, the NAUI cave 1 is what I believe should be the new "standard" for cave training. Unfortunately it doesn't make sense for the for-profit agencies because they can't make as much money and neither can the instructors so it won't happen.

 

[uncfnp]

Specific to the op, he needs his cavern certification so he doesn't have to repeat cavern if he does elect to go with another instructor.

As to cavern in general, it's a great entry level course for any diver that wants to see if cave is the right choice for them, that wants to develop better skills and approach to diving, or thqt just wants to sample the dark side .

 

[syntaxerrorsix]

cavern alone I think is useless, and I think the limits of intro to cave are absurd, the NAUI cave 1 is what I believe should be the new "standard" for cave training. Unfortunately it doesn't make sense for the for-profit agencies because they can't make as much money and neither can the instructors so it won't happen.

They are building blocks for progressive learning and allow for experience to be gained outside the training curriculum . We know EXACTLY how zero to hero courses and the type of people that take them end up the vast majority of the time.

 

[tbone1004]

They are building blocks for progressive learning and allow for experience to be gained outside the training curriculum . We know EXACTLY how zero to hero courses and the type of people that take them end up the vast majority of the time.

I'm not advocating 0-hero, I'm advocating a change in the archaic way that the industry teaches cave training because intro isn't enough, apprentice is but has an expiration date, so if you want to cave dive in the US you are basically forced to go through full cave. You are forced to go through full cave if you want to dive in sidemount because neither NAUI nor GUE will let you take the course in sidemount

NAUI cave 1-basically equivalent to apprentice, taught typically in 5 days. No deco, dive to thirds, 2 nav decisions. I.e. you can do the crossover circuit in Peacock, jump into and out of // lines in JB, etc etc.

The limits of intro don't allow you to do "enough" so you basically have to come back to take full. Well that is 8 days, so an extra ~$600/student to the instructors. Apprentice expires, so there is literally no point in taking just apprentice even though that is enough for most cave divers. It's all a $$ game, which is sad, but true. Back in the day when people actually were using the limits of the full cave cert I get it, but with nitrox and bigger tanks, it just isn't necessary for most people. GUE and NAUI really have a much better progression imho, but unfortunately don't allow sidemount for training

 

[syntaxerrorsix]

doesn't change the fact that the NAUI cave 1 is basically a non-expiring Apprentice equivalent which is exactly what most cave divers and up doing for their career. One extra day to teach how to make navigational decisions and they are done instead of 4 days to finish full. It's a $$ game

It doesn't matter what "most cave divers" end up doing. It's a training curriculum designed to provide the best method of progressive teaching. Technical divers getting hung up on the cost of well thought out training very likely have no business doing technical dives. My last mix dive cost more than a standard cavern course. If a diver is letting cost cloud their judgement in regards to training it may be time to step back and reevaluate their priories.

 

[tbone1004]

It doesn't matter what "most cave divers" end up doing. It's a training curriculum designed to provide the best method of progressive teaching. Technical divers getting hung up on the cost of well thought out training very likely have no business doing technical dives. My last mix dive cost more than a standard cavern course. If a diver is letting cost cloud their judgement in regards to training it may be time to step back and reevaluate their priories.

doesn't matter what your last mix dive cost. I truly do not believe that the 4 step progression is the best, especially because apprentice is an expiring course. If apprentice didn't expire I could see it, but you can't deny the fact that if you want to dive in Florida, you are basically forced to finish full cave whether you want to or not because intro is too limiting, and even if you never intend to do decompression dives, stage dives, whatever, you have to take Full because Apprentice will expire. That is wrong, and I think GUE/NAUI have a much better progressive learning method. Full cave is actually too limiting for what some of us end up doing, so having the Cave 1 set up for what "most" cave divers will end up doing, then having Cave 2 where you learn how to do stage dives is a much better progression, even if it is only 2 step instead of 6. *really 3 not 6 because I don't know anyone that actually advocates for taking the 3 steps one at a time, and NAUI has a basic survey requirement, but I don't know anyone that takes the survey class anymore*

so my question to you, is why do you think the NACD/CDS training progression is better?

 

[syntaxerrorsix]

Yes, if you are going to do cave dives in Florida you should be cave trained. That's EXACTLY what intro and apprentice are, steps towards cave certification.

There are plenty of caverns worth exploring here as well. Lots of folks think they need to get to the back of the cave and never even see what the first half has to offer.

So you have two options. Get cavern certified and explore caverns or take the cave curriculum and learn to cave dive. Trying to get half of a certification because you think the full curriculum is to expensive is very telling and there aren't a whole lot of systems you are going to be diving thirds while accumulating zero deco.

The good news we can each have an opinion. I'm just happy that most training agencies seem to concur with mine.

Gotta go mow the lawn. Have a great day.

 

[Jack Hammer]

@tbone1004, I made over 60 dives in Florida and Missouri during my year at the Intro level before taking Full cave. I'm not sure why you think Intro is not enough to learn. I dove several different systems and had many nice dive times. There is quite a bit to see in the first 1,000' of the cave, even staying on the main line.

I think most people want instant gratification and want to jump right up to the big boy dives without gaining the experience to properly plan and deal with the logistics of them. I think this is part of why we have seen an increase in the number trained cave divers dying in caves. IMO, zero to hero is generally a bad idea.

 

[bamafan]

Tbone, I agree with you on the 3 step process being better. We all know of people who do jumps, t's etc. at the intro level. I know of people who have run a reel way into a cave and tied onto.a jump line so technically they wouldn't be violating there standards at the intro level. I was told that NAUI cave classes can be taught in.sidemount now. I don't know for sure but I was told this.

 

[syntaxerrorsix]

Tbone, I agree with you on the 3 step process being better. We all know of people who do jumps, t's etc. at the intro level. I know of people who have run a reel way into a cave and tied onto.a jump line so technically they wouldn't be violating there standards at the intro level. I was told that NAUI cave classes can be taught in.sidemount now. I don't know for sure but I was told this.

So are you saying we should reduce training standards because some people violate the current ones?