Dear DM's around the world...

[charlier]

Should they? Of course not. Agree with all you say. They do the logistics (head counting, etc.). And don't get to dive (this would be a big minus in my book). Too bad the babysitting inwater is assumed in the tropics. I guess it's all about the business and vacation divers. I couldn't be a vacation diver-- would be too nervous, with a DM/guide or not. I guess many don't share that feeling.

So what do suggest for organizing diving in remote areas on a liveaboard,or small boat. A 300+ km Banda Sea crossing - given a water depth of ~3km with internal waves compressing again't pinnacles that might only rise above the sea surface at high tide, how would you organize the trip? Some dive sites have strong down currents and each dive buddy group would have to turn around at a specific location

Would you drop the diver buddy pairs off the RIB and find them an hour later spread out in the open ocean +-swells and strong currents. Since the boat has to keep to a tight schedule based on tides, currents, and itinerary, how would you deal with lost and late dive buddy pairs surfacing in seemingly random lotions.

In this tropical paradise, the DM always dives with their customers, about 4 divers/DM. We set limits on depth, occasional time, and location at dive site. I keep track of my divers throughout the dive. In such locations, the captain, crew, and DM's are,emergency services and SAR.

 

[Peter69_56]

So what do suggest for organizing diving in remote areas on a liveaboard,or small boat. A 300+ km Banda Sea crossing - given a water depth of ~3km with internal waves compressing again't pinnacles that might only rise above the sea surface at high tide, how would you organize the trip? Some dive sites have strong down currents and each dive buddy group would have to turn around at a specific location

Would you drop the diver buddy pairs off the RIB and find them an hour later spread out in the open ocean +-swells and strong currents. Since the boat has to keep to a tight schedule based on tides, currents, and itinerary, how would you deal with lost and late dive buddy pairs surfacing in seemingly random lotions.

In this tropical paradise, the DM always dives with their customers, about 4 divers/DM. We set limits on depth, occasional time, and location at dive site. I keep track of my divers throughout the dive. In such locations, the captain, crew, and DM's are,emergency services and SAR.

Thats how its done in melbourne OZ. We go in pairs or small groups and all give a total dive time to the skipper. He doesnt anchor up, drops a down line, we all go down. He may leave the down line or not and as the current is predictable either in or out the bay, he picks up on the predicted current. Everyone must have an SMB and shoot them. There are a number of operators there and all use the same method. I think to date no one has lost a diver due to lost on the surface? Sometimes the divers can be spread out, but if you shoot your smb before leaving the bottom, they will track everyone. Sand depth can be from 20m to 70m.

 

[scagrotto]

Your comment however is nothing more than a smart remark and adds no value to the conversation.

The usefulness of every post depends on the ability of the reader to think, and the more thinking the reader does the less a post has to say. Perhaps I should have said more.

I stand by my comments relating to "Dear DM's around the world" which suggests applying to DM's around the world!

Maybe that's why the title said "around the world"? You don't think that all the DM's who could be better live and work in some particular location, do you?

Not some but "DM's" thus the message for all DM's, as if we have all failed

My thinking leads me to the conclusion that there's absolutely nothing in the original post to suggest that the OP thinks all the DM's he's encountered have failed him, let alone that he's lumping all DM's in the same basket. If your thinking (still) leads you to the conclusion that it suggests that all DM's have failed perhaps you should read it again and/or do a bit more thinking.

 

[Alice Goot]

If I'm doing a fun dive with a SCUBA professional, I think of that person as my guide. If I'm doing a course with a SCUBA professional, I think of that person as my instructor.

Since the original post was referring to fun dives I will refer to them as dive guides, whether they are DM, OWSI, MSDT...etc. To me there cert level doesn't matter, because at the end of the day I'm responsible for myself and my buddy and I look out for each other (I dont' need to be asked my air pressure or bottom time). Unless I have specifically arranged to buddy with the guide they are not there to baby sit me, they are there to guide me, and I need to let myself be guided. More often than not that guide has 4-8 other guests that he/she is guiding and has to take into account their preferences as well. Goodness knows it's hard to please everybody all the time, or as my friends likes to say "it's like herding cats". And if I find something I want to stay and look at or don't want to follow, fine I say bye bye, and have no hard feelings.

That said, there I always try and understand if there are contributing factors why this person loses me, am I not following my "guide", are other divers putting pressure on them to go faster or are they just really bad at guiding? If they're not showing me stuff, why? Do they have bad eyes, don't they know any of the marine life, are they busy babysitting other guests?

I wouldn't go to the Sierras and join a nature walk with a guide and not follow that guide, if that guide is too fast or slow, I tell them (Lol, although you can easily tell by my huffing and puffing), why is this any different? If they're not out pointing birds, bears and other flora and fauna I ask them why not?!?

That's my 2 cents, after listening to other guests on deck, I think sometimes people expect too much from the guides (especially UW photographers).

 

[billt4sf]

Dear DM's:

May I encourage you to remember that you are guiding PEOPLE, not the reef. Putting your head down, swimming along, and never looking back (to the point that you lose your charges) isn't the greatest idea.

Also, when guiding someone for the first time, if they say "We want a checkout dive, we have some new equipment" that is a coded message to indicate that they might need a bit of help at some point.

Great questions to ask before the dive are: "How many dives do you have?" and "When was your last dive?"

Dear Divers:

Do not assume that your DM will "save you". He or she may have less experience than you.

<comes down off soapbox>. No, nothing bad happened. We are good buddies to one another FIRST.

- Bill & Emily

Well! This certainly has been an interesting discussion! When I wrote the post, I had no idea….


I wrote the post because it was an observation: two guides in one two-week trip that ignored us throughout the dive made me comment on it. It was not meant to be a criticism of all DMs around the world, nor was it a statement that all divers are ready for the dive they are on. Simply an observation, in one case we were with a group totaling four divers, in the other case it was just me and my wife with a guide. In both cases the guide never looked up, so I remarked on it. During our trip, we had many excellent dive guides!


Sometimes we are resort divers, a DM is assigned to us. In other cases we have dived alone or with other divers. When we are in a new environment, we certainly want a guide to show us not only the critters, but help us keep away from unexpected things like currents. If you are in a new environment, and you can hear a briefing and guide your own dive, good for you. We LIKE guided dives. Early in our diving career we certainly were quite a bit more dependent on them than we are now. Nor do we ignore the DM or other members of the group.

In either case, if we have a problem (say, losing a fin, or difficulty descending, or God forbid a gas problem) I expect that other divers around us would in general be looking out for one another, at least in an informal way, whether or not they are DMs, dive guides, part of our dive group, or Joe Blow that happened to pass by at that time. Wouldn’t you, even if it cost you a bit of bottom time?

The questions I suggested that the DM ask are really basic questions that all divers in a dive group should ask one another, don’t you think? Although I admit it pretty rarely occurs in a direct manner. But if you’re about to dive with a group, don’t you try to figure out a little what the skill levels are? I know I do, without even thinking about it much.

FWIW something rubs me a bit the wrong way sometimes (not always) when people write: “Each person is responsible for their own safety”. Of course it’s factually true, no one should dive if they are dependent on someone else for their safety. Yet, are we not all brothers and sisters in one community of divers and human beings, and therefore should we not anticipate to be helpful to one another if a case arises? I feel like some have the attitude that “I don’t care about anyone else, I am here for my enjoyment and you can go screw”. Maybe I am reading more into that statement than needs to be. I hope so.


Thanks,

Bill

 

[Storker]

Maybe I am reading more into that statement than needs to be.

I think you are.

 

[Neilwood]

FWIW something rubs me a bit the wrong way sometimes (not always) when people write: “Each person is responsible for their own safety”. Of course it’s factually true, no one should dive if they are dependent on someone else for their safety. Yet, are we not all brothers and sisters in one community of divers and human beings, and therefore should we not anticipate to be helpful to one another if a case arises? I feel like some have the attitude that “I don’t care about anyone else, I am here for my enjoyment and you can go screw”. Maybe I am reading more into that statement than needs to be. I hope so.


Thanks,

Bill

When I wrote my comment stating this, I was writing from the point of view that divers should not be relying solely on the DM to get them back to the surface safely - that is the responsibility of the diver and their buddy (each buddy pair/team should roughly know their gas level, location etc on every dive) and they should be aware of the dive plan well enough that they can complete it if separated from the group. What a lot of people seem to do is to say on a guided dive is "the DM is leading therefore I have no responsibility for anything" and forget to do gas checks or keep track of their buddy.

It is important on dives though to let the DM know gas levels etc as on some dives there might be a routing issue where the dive might be "trimmed" depending on gas consumption. Example of a drift dive on my last trip - 2 groups (both guided) in a reasonable current, there was a point in the dive where the group could continue along the reef wall or turn at a point before returning to the main boat. One group carried on past that point (my group which contained the less experienced divers as it happened), hit a stronger current and had one diver need to air share for a few minutes with the DM to complete the route back to the boat (without the air share, they would have had to deploy their DSMB separately to the rest of the group which would have meant deploying the rib to pick them up). The other group cut that corner off, missed the stronger current and everyone went back on board with a lot more gas. The DM should have been aware that, by choosing to continue round the corner of the reef into the current that gas consumption was going to be an issue (we were returning into the current).

 

[Lorenzoid]

. . . FWIW something rubs me a bit the wrong way sometimes (not always) when people write: “Each person is responsible for their own safety”. Of course it’s factually true, no one should dive if they are dependent on someone else for their safety. Yet, are we not all brothers and sisters in one community of divers and human beings, and therefore should we not anticipate to be helpful to one another if a case arises? I feel like some have the attitude that “I don’t care about anyone else, I am here for my enjoyment and you can go screw”. Maybe I am reading more into that statement than needs to be. I hope so.

To me, my buddy/teammate is my brother or sister. The DM and others are, at best, distant cousins whose actions are unpredictable. Sure, I would attempt to assist anyone in need, whether "related" to me or not, and I would hope DMs and others would do the same. Yes, I feel we are all part of a community. However, only my buddy and I are trained to act in a predictable way toward each other and actually anticipate helping each other. My buddy and I are each responsible for our own safety, and we don't "rely on" each other, but as people who seriously respect the buddy system we can expect each other to act in a predictable way. The DM is not my buddy (unless, of course, I am buddied with the DM).

 

[billt4sf]

To me, my buddy/teammate is my brother or sister. The DM and others are, at best, distant cousins whose actions are unpredictable. Sure, I would attempt to assist anyone in need, whether "related" to me or not, and I would hope DMs and others would do the same. Yes, I feel we are all part of a community. However, only my buddy and I are trained to act in a predictable way toward each other and actually anticipate helping each other. My buddy and I are each responsible for our own safety, and we don't "rely on" each other, but as people who seriously respect the buddy system we can expect each other to act in a predictable way. The DM is not my buddy (unless, of course, I am buddied with the DM).

Yeah, I have to agree with this. Sometimes I have been odd man out in a group, and the DM will say "I'm your buddy". That is always a danger signal to me. They have way too much on their mind to be my buddy, indeed if they even know how to be what I consider to be a good buddy.

- Bill

 

[TMHeimer]

So what do suggest for organizing diving in remote areas on a liveaboard,or small boat. A 300+ km Banda Sea crossing - given a water depth of ~3km with internal waves compressing again't pinnacles that might only rise above the sea surface at high tide, how would you organize the trip? Some dive sites have strong down currents and each dive buddy group would have to turn around at a specific location

Would you drop the diver buddy pairs off the RIB and find them an hour later spread out in the open ocean +-swells and strong currents. Since the boat has to keep to a tight schedule based on tides, currents, and itinerary, how would you deal with lost and late dive buddy pairs surfacing in seemingly random lotions.

In this tropical paradise, the DM always dives with their customers, about 4 divers/DM. We set limits on depth, occasional time, and location at dive site. I keep track of my divers throughout the dive. In such locations, the captain, crew, and DM's are,emergency services and SAR.

I would have no idea how to organize such dives. What you do seems very logical to me. I've dived in many situations, but none like that. It would make sense that the divers be at least very experienced to be on such dives. I thinks when we talk of not having guides and buddy pairs taking care of themselves we are not considering your situation. I'd give an awful lot of thought before signing up for such a dive.