Dive Agencies PADI, SSI, SDI, NAUI, YMCA, ACUC, CMAS

[DiveTyme]

Walter, I was typing while you were posting. My Y class runs pretty much as the skills you list. But when people call me, most ask for a PADI course.

 

[DFC5343]

Are represented by the instructors they put out. Quite frankly it never seems to one agency that kills divers but bad teaching.

 

[Scott M]

"how can results be improved?"

Pretty simple, actually.

Start by requiring people to swim. Next teach skin diving. Teach it with a real snorkel - a simple J. Skin divers should learn and master: mask clearing (3 times on one breath - minimum), no mask breathing, 5 styles of kicks, cramp removal, equalization, head first and feet first dives, ascents, mask and snorkel recovery from the pool bottom, breathing through a flooded snorkel, blast and displacement snorkel clearing, entries and exits, comminications, the buddy system, NO swimming with hands, and neutral weighting.

Once that is accomplished, introduce SCUBA. Get off the bottom!!!! Skills should be learned and practiced off the bottom. Eliminate fin pivots and work on true neutral buoyancy. Review many of the skin diving skills, equalization, neutral weighting, entries and exits,cramp removal, 5 styles of kicks, communications, the buddy system, no mask breathing, mask clearing, snorkel/regulator exchanges (and vice versa), 3 methods of regulator clearing, 2 methods of regulator recovery, neutral buoyancy, helicopter turns, weight belt removal and replace, oral inflation of BC, breathing from a free flowing regulator, disconnecting a stuck LPI, octopus breathing, buddy breathing, descents, ascents, ESA, Doff and Don, equipment exchange with buddy, bail out, equipment exchange with buddy while buddy breathing, rescue exhausted diver on surface, rescue panicked diver on the surface, rescue unconscious diver on the surface, and rescue unconscious diver off the bottom.

Practice. These skills aren't passed by doing it once. They must be mastered to the point the student can repeat them easily.

My instruction was good but did not hit on all of the examples you give, most but not all, my instructor actually extended our class by a day because he felt we could use the extra time UW.

In my opinion your requirements are quite well laid out and more than a reasonable amount of skill for a new OW student to be able to accomplish and obviously are coming from somebody who knows and cares about the quality of student they turn out, a student you can hang your hat on so to speak.

Now how can that kind of quality instruction be implimented (required) and accounted for by each and every instructor?

Scott

 

[dbulmer]

Walter,
3 methods of regulator clearing? I know 2 - purge button, breathe out what's the third? I think my question proves your point.

 

[MikeFerrara]

One issue is inforcing standards. If the agency has time to have some one travel around to the shops showing new products and coaching in how to market them they could drop by the local training site once in a while

The other issue is the content of the standards. As an example, in one agencies standards, the student is required to swim 30 yards neutral and hover for one minute (in any position which is useless) in confined water. In OW they must get neutral on the last dive for no specfied time and in no specified position. The student can spend the rest of their time on their knees or in the mud.

There's a shop that I run into often at the quarry. They are very proud of the fact that they certify about 400 divers every year. In OW they station an instructor on a platform and have a DM shuttle a group over. The instructor has the student demo skills on the platform and the DM shuttles them back to shore.

Once I had a talk with one of the owners because they tear up the quarry so bad that no one else can use it. The students spend about 5 hours in the pool and his only concern is numbers. The agency is well aware of the way they teach.

In our classes students spend hours just working on trim, buoyancy control and finning technique. Why? because that's most of what diving is. You can't stay with a buddy if you can't control your position in the water. You can't be aware of a buddy if you're busy just staying alive. You can't handle a problem while controling position if you can't control position. Yes it takes more than 5 hours and No None of it is in the standards.

With some agencies, instructors are only taught how to administer the standards and sell the agencies products and programs. They are never taught how to teach and if they are to ever learn they'll be self taught.

It's the definition of diving that the agencies have wrong. They won't be capable of fixing standards until that's fixed.

Me, I'm dropping one agency this year because I won't put my name on a card that has their name on it. I'm sure as hell not going to pay them any more. I won't have what I teach confused with what the above mentioned shop teaches because the cards are the same. I'll give it another year with the other agency but I doubt I stay with them either.

What they're doing isn't an accident. They've knowingly decided to teach the way they are and shops and instructors are teaching exactly the way the agency intends them to teach. The diving industry has geared itself to compete with passtimes like bowling and golf and the goal is to require as little instruction or preperation as possible.

IMO, it's flawed from the start. That opinion is based on what I've seen in the water. True, not very many people get hurt. That's because usually nothing goes wrong. From what I've seen the vast majority of time that something does go wrong it's first of all something that wouldn't happen if the diver could dive and second it is not managed to a desireable outcome.

 

[Walter]

DiveTyme ,

Why do they ask for the PADI course? I find there are two reasons people ask for PADI. The most common reason is PADI is huge and that's all they've heard. They assume all certifications are PADI. Once they learn that is not the case, they are no longer looking for a PADI card, but a c-card from any recognized agency.

The other reason, is some people know the difference and want something fast and easy. I explain that my class is easy, if you apply yourself, but it's not fast. If they truly want fast, I'm happy to send them down the street. I don't want my name on their card.

Scott,

"how can that kind of quality instruction be implimented (required) and accounted for by each and every instructor?"

It can't and frankly, why should it be? There's a market for the fast class with low standards. I have no problem with courses designed for that market. I do not believe in protecting people from themselves. If someone wants a c-card as quickly and easily as they can get it, I believe it should be available.

My objection lies not in an agency having low standards, but in misleading people about the differences between their standards and the standards of some other agency. Most people unknowingly get a class in which they are ill prepared to dive because they didn't know there was a difference.

Mike,

I'm proud of you. I've long known you were a man of integrity.

 

[DiveTyme]

Walter
I believe PADI's name reconition is the main reason. People are very comfortable with "Name Brand". But some people do not have the time to make a structured class. A good example is a fireman that I certified last year and was on call at odd times. He could not be there say every Thursday night. I must say I was a skeptic with home study at first but I let my students know up front what is expected of them. They generally score above 90% on the quizzes and final exam. It all comes down to the instructor.

 

[Dwain]

Agency and/or instructor aren't the only determining factors.
And the amount of influence prolly stops at motivating student.
It all depends on the diver wanting to learn, and master skills.
PERIOD!

 

[Turk6482]

Everyone that has posted on this thread have valid points. I can tell you from my classroom and pool time what happened and how LOW the standards were for the shop that did the training.

I took my OW class thru a PADI dive center here. The class was a small one starting with 5, then to 3, then to two (my buddy and myself).
The classroom part (Total of 4 days maybe a total of 6 hours) was more or less study on your on time, come to class and take the test, not much explaining at all. Pool time............3 times for about 2hrs each time performing each task about two MAYBE three times. Then the open water dives (2 days/ 2 dives each day). Perform tasks we did in pool once, went for a swim, end of OWD's. Received C-Card shortly there after.

Do I think I am a qualified diver, well I got my C-Card but know that there is soooooo much for me to learn. Trim, Buoyancy.........covered, done once........can I do them? I don't think so...........trained with my knees on the bottom during the open water dives waiting for my turn (about 8 students on OWD's). While waiting I did try to be neg. buoyant...........but still need to learn more.

What I'm trying to say is that we have to blame both the Shops and the Instructors for turning out an unfinished / unsafe product/ diver. True the student must want to learn also but like a large amount of people these days everyone wants a quick fix, quick everything.

I say this because I am an instructor (CPR/ First Responder/ Firearms) for my department (Police Dept) and know first hand that everyone wants to get their cert............learn?? practice??? know what they are doing??? ya sure they do............. :ne_nau:

Just my two cents...........

 

[Walter]

Dwain,

How does the motivated student learn skills not taught in the pool?