Dive Computer Technology?

[gcbryan]

From my limited research OLEDS use much less power than LCD's. The price is coming down particularly for the smaller sized screens. They are used in some cell phones today.

To Kanondodr as was mentioned that's not how an X1 or any dive computer works. The X1 can load several different deco planners just as one would do on a desktop. Also, no one is trying to make a Buhlmann algorithm less conservative...GF's attempt to do just the opposite however although they could be set to match VPM or any other algorithms runtime they can't produce the same deco profile.

If the open source dive computer mentioned earlier in the thread can be sold for around $1,000 US with OLED's with the very limited numbers they would be producing I'd guess that Oceanic could do the same and sell it at much lower prices...today.

 

[Kern]

I don't agree with this statement .... these days you can get an arm16 based microcontroller with embedded memory, plenty of power to run any deco algorithms you want - and more to spare.
They cost nothing and they consume nothing

Prices are high because volumes are low

Alberto

Once again I'm not an expert & just going with the info I could find at the time. Could you comment how arm 16 chips cost & consumption compares to those used in most DC's today.

Does "prices are high because volumes are low" apply to manufacturers buying the CPU's or the end user buying the DC?

Just for my own interest, do you no what sort of CPU most DC use at the moment? As arm 16 chips cost & consume nothing I wonder why they aren't more common in DC now? Does an arm 32 chip cost & consume nothing?

 

[gcbryan]

Once again I'm not an expert & just going with the info I could find at the time. Could you comment how arm 16 chips cost & consumption compares to those used in most DC's today.

Does "prices are high because volumes are low" apply to manufacturers buying the CPU's or the end user buying the DC?

Just for my own interest, do you no what sort of CPU most DC use at the moment? As arm 16 chips cost & consume nothing I wonder why they aren't more common in DC now? Does an arm 32 chip cost & consume nothing?

Not being argumentative...I just want to know...do you know that current DC's couldn't handle VPM for sure? The original reason that so many DC's used Buhlmann was simply because Buhlmann was the only one who published a book with enough information in it to actually implement the program. I know some people download VPM into their iPod and other smaller devices.

Regarding prices being high...volume is volume regardless of whether you are looking at it from the point of view of the manufacturer or the end user. If there aren't many end users volume will be low since a manufacturer isn't going to order in large numbers for a small potential market.

Someone like Oceanic that has dealerships worldwide, name recognition and a large advertising budget produces many more computers than a smaller company ever will. Their unit and component costs will be much lower.

For what it's worth, I believe the life issue with OLED's is much improved. Liquivision says something like 40,000 hours. They are being used in some TV screens now. Flat screen's with OLED's can be much thinner than with LCD's.

 

[Kern]

From the X1 manual: The OLED display is rated to retain more than half its initial brightness after 40,000 hours of use.

Yes, that's what the manufacturer says, but I couldn't find any independent authorities at the time that thought that sort of figure was anything but hyperbole.

On the other hand, technology can move on very quickly.

 

[DiveNav]

Once again I'm not an expert & just going with the info I could find at the time. Could you comment how arm 16 chips cost & consumption compares to those used in most DC's today.....

My point is that the electronic components per se (processor / memory) are NOT the ones responsible for the overall (high) cost of dive computers. In volume, the difference between an 8 bit microcontroller and a 16bits one is in order of few dollars .... and a 32 bits one is an overkill for the deco algorithms.
From a pure processing power point of view (that drives power consumption), you could easily run the ZH-L16C at 1 Hz sample rate on on a 8 bit m-controller
You don't even need an AD converter because the pressure/temperature sensor comes with SPI.
This means that if you use a 0.18micron CMOS controller (old from a technology point of view ) you will probably consume few mW to run the deco algorithm ....
Imagine what you could do using state of the art sub-micron processes

In my opinion the driving factors in the overall DC costs are the mechanical container, final assembly and the final tests.

.....Does "prices are high because volumes are low" apply to manufacturers buying the CPU's or the end user buying the DC?....

Both .... dive computers are not a "mass market" product and the economy of scales are just not there ... for every step .... from device integration, to assembly, test and distribution.
How many dive computers do you think are sold every year worldwide? And how many cellphones?

Alberto

 

[Kern]

From my limited research OLEDS use much less power than LCD's.

Are we talking about DC screens that don't have constant backlighting or tv & computer monitors that do require constant backlighting. I have to say that most of the info I could find related to tv & PC monitors. The manufacturers certainly hyped the lower power consumption of OLED over LCD prior to bringing them to market. Once again, independent studies seem to indicate that this may not be the case in reality.

 

[Psyonide]

I really have to agree with DiveNav here- DCs sell in small volumes and with so many equipment manufacturers out there the earning potential is small AFAIK. Technologically speaking there's no doubt in my mind that current DCs aren't exactly top notch, but than again they were never really required to be cutting edge high-tech as the amount of calculations needed is quite limited, no cool graphics, no comm etc. quite basic.
The consensus I'm aware of claims that OLEDs do require less power than LCDs, and if you want to go super high-tec than check Kodak's new submersible flexibles:
Kodak flexible OLED display gets its feet wet
So this field is really hot today.
Again, there's no doubt in mind that once you take DCs from the realm of diving equipment manufacturers to that of gadget and PC manufacturers- you'll be able to cram much more magic into those little things.
However- bear in mind few key points:
1. Today's PCs limited life expectancy and reliability (exploding iPhones pop to mind).
2. Parts support.
3. Operational depth.
4. Life supporting gear manufacturers rely heavily on years long positive rep.
Add to that the fact that you usually don't expect to upgrade your gear every year and that the market is probably not huge and, well... you get the picture why it's probably still the domain of diving equipment manufacturers and not Dell's. That doesn't mean though that it can't be done.

 

[Kern]

OK, it looks like I have it all wrong. Apparently an 8 bit CPU running a single phase algorithm will not use anymore power than a 32 bit CPU running a dual phase algorithm in real time. Small OLED displays used in DC's use less power than an LCD display without permanent backlights. The current crop of DC available can all run dual phase algorithms in real time.

 

[gcbryan]

OK, it looks like I have it all wrong. Apparently an 8 bit CPU running a single phase algorithm will not use anymore power than a 32 bit CPU running a dual phase algorithm in real time. Small OLED displays used in DC's use less power than an LCD display without permanent backlights. The current crop of DC available can all run dual phase algorithms in real time.

Hey, don't get upset... I think you are right for the most part. I think the power is less in applications where LCD's must be backlit such as flatscreen technology and you are probably correct that in dive computers they use more power.

Initially, I hadn't thought about the extra processing power for VPM but I'm guessing (that's guessing) that Alberto is correct that it's not a major cost consideration all other things considered.

Regarding the life of the screen it will be interesting to see if the Liquivision owners are still happy in a year or two with the display brightness.

 

[DiveNav]

.....Initially, I hadn't thought about the extra processing power for VPM but I'm guessing (that's guessing) that Alberto is correct that it's not a major cost consideration all other things considered......

Hey .... I am guessing too .... but it is an educated guess .... I have been in the semiconductor industry since 87 and I have seen Moore 's law in action several times and I have seen cost (cost - not selling price) of GPS receivers (just the rf+baseband processing combination) going from few hundreds dollars to a couple of dollars when demand requested it.

If dive computers were a mass market and were easy to do (from a mechanical / reliability point of view) the Taiwanese / Chinese would be all over it.

Alberto