Diving without Certification (A RANT)

[pjhansman]

Hilarious discussion

For several years I've been reading endless threads on how the training today has been dumbed down compared to the "old days".

Now some of those same people admit to starting diving with absolutely zero "formal" training.

Guess people today are just too stupid to study and learn on their own.

 

[CCRDolphinDiver]

There is no law against sharing knowledge, or training divers without a instructor card. This convention is entirely of the scuba industry except for some places that are regulated by law. Cayman, a couple of marine parks that I can think of, etc. This may go just fine, or it may end in disaster. Chances are it will go just fine. The problems will start if things go south and the untrained diver gets hurt. Then the lawyers will go after the "tech diver" with a vengeance because he should have known better. The OP may want to have a chat with the newbie and suggest professional training to clear his conscience. People do risky things every day, some survive, some die, some wish they had died in the process. That's life baby.

 

[Cave Diver]

But as a 'general practice' I would suggest that laymen are not the best diving instructors.

I'd hardly consider a tech diver to be a "layman."

As was noted by someone much earlier in the thread, we would need to know a lot more details to make an informed decision about this. In general I would say it's better to have an instructor take someone out, if for no other reason the liability coverage if an Oh ****! moment occurs. On the other hand, I've seen some very incompetent instructors that I wouldn't trust in a bathtub.

Like everything else, it really comes down to the skills of the individuals involved.

 

[HowardE]

No offense taken- but as an instructor, I am trained to take beginners. Tech divers are not.

The tech diver in question may have done just as good a job as me... or not. As this thread isn't part of the Accident section, we can assume he lived- like the vast majority of first-time divers. But as a 'general practice' I would suggest that laymen are not the best diving instructors.

You can learn to drive a car with an experienced driver, or a professional driving instructor. One is free and one is not. If asked which would be safer, I would answer the pro. If asked which one would lead to a better beginner driver, I would again choose the pro.

Respectfully, I think that's a load of crap.

I learned to drive a car from my dad in a parking lot... In the 27 years I've been driving, I haven't been in an accident, or had a traffic violation of any kind.

So...

Let me say this... I'm not implying that you aren't a good instructor. Frankly, I don't know, and am not qualified to comment on that.

At the same time, there are plenty of instructors that have way less experience than me, or others whom I know, and I'm pretty darn sure that without me being a "professional" instructor, I would venture a guess that I could give someone a way more comprehensive scuba education than let's say the guy who has 200 dives... regardless of how much they paid to become an instructor and they were taught some approved method for teaching.

Again... I'm not saying that all instructors suck, and that I'm great. What I am saying is that just because someone is a "professional instructor" doesn't mean they're going to do a better job than a layperson with a lot of experience.

As I stated earlier... The instructors will all say, "use a professional instructor" and quite frankly, to get someone certified, you have no choice... But if I was going to take a friend of mine who wasn't certified, on a shore dive here in Ft. Lauderdale (where the maximum depth is 15') with my equipment, I wouldn't think I was doing them an injustice. YMMV.

Think about this... If I give my friend a DSD class, then they may actually WANT to get certified, and be great at it. It's hard to make a $300+ commitment to something you might not even like at all.

 

[dfx]

I learned to drive a car from my dad in a parking lot... In the 27 years I've been driving, I haven't been in an accident, or had a traffic violation of any kind.

There's a difference between learning how to handle a car, and learning the rules and laws of public traffic.

 

[agilis]

There's a difference between learning how to handle a car, and learning the rules and laws of public traffic.

Perhaps, but there is no relationship or connection between the two. One reflects the development of a skill, the other involves memorizing a list.

It might be instructive to listen carefully to Laurie Anderson's analysis of Walking and Falling.

 

[Thalassamania]

Okay, Hold on just sec. This isnt 1970 (no disrespect). Both guys are under 30 of age. The friend is my brother-in-law. The tech diver is friend of his from work. My point is if he wanted to learn to dive he should have found an instructor. I have friends who are instructors who let me strap on a tank in their pool. This was not one of those instances.

Your BIL was not "learning" to dive, he was trying it out on a one-fer ... that's rather different. He was in a one-on-one with an experienced team-oriented diver ... may be a much safer way considering.

Yes, but they have taken the class and have learned the dangers of diving and how to avoid them. Without taking the class a diver might disregard the 30ft per minute accent rule and contract the bends.

Pray tell ... 30ft per minute accent rule and contract the bends?

It really really really depends on the diver(s) in question.

IMO a 'tech diver' with over 250 dives! isn't much to be teaching beginners, but it sounds like I'm in the minority here. A freshly minted instructor with PADI OTOH has a minimum of 100 dives...... and specific training in how to handle beginners. Which is better? Safer? Again, it really depends on the diver(s).

BTW, my first dozen dives were all with my uncle when I was 15 or so. I grew up near the beach, had been in water surfing, snorkeling and fishing often. He'd been diving for donkey's (so I thought thenn). That is still often the case in NZ where people dive for crayfish and scallops often without 'professional 'training. Most survive, some don't.

Again, teaching someone to dive is not what is going on here.

Actually it can be part of a home school program. I created 2 home school classes for each of my boy, they were excellent classes (Basic OW and Marine Science). The catch of course is that the boys also completed a normal PADI OW course with an instructor to get the OW card. That part they aced. The second part of the class with me (10 addition ocean dives, endless drill, etc...) was more difficult.

I taught a bright home-schooler last year, 100 hr scientific course, he did well.

No offense taken- but as an instructor, I am trained to take beginners. Tech divers are not.

The tech diver in question may have done just as good a job as me... or not. As this thread isn't part of the Accident section, we can assume he lived- like the vast majority of first-time divers. But as a 'general practice' I would suggest that laymen are not the best diving instructors.

You can learn to drive a car with an experienced driver, or a professional driving instructor. One is free and one is not. If asked which would be safer, I would answer the pro. If asked which one would lead to a better beginner driver, I would again choose the pro.

Again, teaching someone to dive is not what is going on here.

Hilarious discussion

For several years I've been reading endless threads on how the training today has been dumbed down compared to the "old days".

Now some of those same people admit to starting diving with absolutely zero "formal" training.

Guess people today are just too stupid to study and learn on their own.

You're rather missing the point. In the old days most of the folks who were diving without benefit of "formal" training were first of all water people, surfers, ocean swimmers, free divers, etc., and second of all were simply extending skills that they already had by individuals or guided study on the their own ... usually by reading and practice under controlled conditions. It is not that people today are just too stupid to study and learn on their own, but more that a different slice of the population is becoming interested in diving.

 

[adurso]

Why does it seem these questions devolve into an "if it was an instructor it would be ok" type of response?

Training someone consists of communicating information gathered via experience or one's own training.

The lack of forty hours of "instructor training" does not preclude the ability to train another....(yes, yes, I know the IDC is more than forty hours)

 

[dfx]

Perhaps, but there is no relationship or connection between the two. One reflects the development of a skill, the other involves memorizing a list.

Exactly my point. Your dad may be able to teach you how to drive a car in a parking lot, but knowing to stop at a red light is something completely different and has nothing to do with being able to drive a car. In fast, most people will know that even if they don't know how to drive a car, while it's probably not something you dad will tell you in a parking lot while teaching you how to drive.

The same applies to diving. Knowing not to hold your breath when darting to the surface is not a skill you can acquire or develop. It's a rule you have to learn and adhere to in order not to kill yourself.

 

[Thalassamania]

Exactly my point. Your dad may be able to teach you how to drive a car in a parking lot, but knowing to stop at a red light is something completely different and has nothing to do with being able to drive a car. In fast, most people will know that even if they don't know how to drive a car, while it's probably not something you dad will tell you in a parking lot while teaching you how to drive.

The same applies to diving. Knowing not to hold your breath when darting to the surface is not a skill you can acquire or develop. It's a rule you have to learn and adhere to in order not to kill yourself.

I learned how to dive without benefit of an instructor (I predate all the agencies), but in over 50 years of diving, well over 10,000 dives, I have never needed to avail myself of knowing not to hold my breath when darting to the surface ... you see ... I've never darted to the surface.