Donating the "primary" regulator

[Eric Sedletzky]

Length of primary hose appears very standard on recreational/rental rigs. We teach based on what they will likely encounter. If they have their own gear we'll teach to that.

Dangling octo is not dependent on "primary donate". It's a different issue and we teach keeping kit reasonably clean by restrain in the console and have a place to hold the alternate air so it's always in the spot you expect it.

Not difficult.

Others have complained about the short hose and not being able to travel while donating the standard rec length primary. SSI does not teach traveling while a diver is OOA. We teach the dive is ended and immediately come to the surface using the safe buddy ascent. We're talking beginning OW divers so they should not be traveling while OOA. The donor is also right there to assist the OOA diver with bob and inflate BCD oral inflation.

I can see travelling through a cave or cavern to get to out to have clear shot to the surface. For that they would need the proper training, but then it would be getting into the tech realm and that's not what we're talking about, I understand that.
But what about a soft ceiling such as a thick kelp canopy which would be better to travel sideways to find a clearing or be completely clear of it?
In California we sometimes encounter very thick kelp canopies. We have plenty of open water divers regularly diving in kelp.

---------- Post added January 1st, 2016 at 10:24 PM ----------

And teaching donation of the primary is also the same method for technical agencies. Since minimizing risk is a major element in technical diving, there must be some benefit to donating the primary.

I believe it is more effective to teach one method of dealing with an OOA emergency than two. Muscle memory relies on not having to make a conscious decision on how to proceed in the middle of dealing with an emergency.

From what I saw in the video they are a long ways off from doing an air share the technical way.
In order to minimize risk the primary needs to be a long hose to give both divers room to move without the possibility of the primary being pulled out of the recipients mouth because of too short of a hose.

Then, the secondary needs to be stowed in a place that the donor can find it immediately without sweeping or reaching such as bungee'd under the chin, not hanging somewhere or placed somewhere that it will be difficult to find. In the video the donor was seen reaching somewhere out of sight of the camera to get the secondary (place and type of attachment unknown). My experience with scumballs and other attachment systems is they didn't work well. When I was using such systems they were constantly falling out and it was difficult to re stow the secondary underwater with gloves.
Also, there is a possibility that the mouthpiece on the secondary could be damaged or pulled out when the donor grabs for it. I have seen tight scumballs pull mouthpieces off before.
I saw the donor doing several seconds of mouth bubbling while he was trying to find the secondary. This to me would be unacceptable in such a situation when every second counts. A bungeed second would be right where it needs to be, it would take a split second to get it (many times hands free) and going for it automatically would be true muscle memory, not fishing around down on the side of your BC for something that might be there or not.

Finally, if they are trying to mimic the technical agencies then they only have the beginning part right of donating the primary. All the rest of the parts of the system are missing, and that's definitely nothing close to tech.

If they really want to get it right why not just have a certain gear protocol and announce that this is the new SSI way we teach. If you want to be SSI then you use this primary donate gear the way we have it designed...similar to how GUE does it. At least half of the equation would be correct then even if an SSI diver had to be the donor to a non SSI OOA diver.
As far as an SSI diver ever running OOA and needing assistance from another agency diver, never, SSI divers are much too good and well trained to do something that silly.

 

[NAM001]

You are right but the loose tank led to the inavalability of air to the OOA diver. the DIR answer of the long hose does address the dangly octo because it is on a lanyard around the doners neck and can not be lost for the donor. Again the dangly octo is another instance where the OOA can not find an air source but what is in the donors mouth. and then the poor donor then can not find the octo for them self.

No intention to set the stage for a hijack and I hope no one uses my post as an excuse to do so. The whys of the loose tank is moot once you get to the point you cant get air.

You addressed several problems in one post.
Too short of a hose for primary regs.
Primary donate still does not address concerns about dangling octo's regardless of who assigned to use them in an OOA.
Tank coming loose because single strap failed - whole other can of worms involving the designs of modern BC's and their materials...best to not go there in this thread or it'll become a major hijack.

 

[Centrals]

No second exchange on this video demo either...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rkam7cnktI

I can donate my primary(7ft) and recover my alternative(bungeed under my chin) at the same time.

 

[jwllorens]

No second exchange on this video demo either...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rkam7cnktI

This is why I don't understand SSI's policy. Even in this example video, look how uncomfortable the divers look in a controlled, stress free environment.

Note that the donated regulator hose is stretched to its maximum length, and the recipient is already VERY close to the donor. They are so close to each other, it is literally comical.

The recipient is clearly struggling to turn to face the camera and keep the regulator from being pulled from his mouth.

The divers can barely communicate because they are practically hitting each other in the face when they try to make hand signals.

Also note that the primary and octo hoses have become twisted together. Should the recipient try to go right behind the donor to hold on to the left shoulder during the ascent, he would find that the hoses were crossed. The primary hose is "trapped" by the octo hose, leading to uncomfortable tugging on both individuals regulators.

This is no way to conduct a REAL emergency ascent when one or both divers are already extremely stressed.

I believe it would be better if the recipient were on the octopus, not the primary, so that extra bit of length could help them out immensely.

Now, I understand that this is not how it works with every other reg setup out there, and I understand that you lose the benefit of donating a guaranteed-working air supply and you lose the benefit of knowing exactly where the donated reg is (in your mouth). And that is why I see no benefit to EVER using regulators configured like this if another option is available. But for this particular setup (the traditional "octopus" regulator configuration) clearly the octopus is meant to be donated. Why else would it be on a longer hose than the primary!?!?!




So SSI teaches donating the primary. As per their standards available online, the stated reason is because this donation method works with all configurations. Why is that even a reason to teach this method, if the method is clearly inferior on some configurations (namely, the standard recreational octopus config)? Students aren't going to randomly dive with a standard config one day, then a long hose the next, then an alternate air source the next. They are going to dive with what they were trained on for a long time, and probably will not switch until trained to use another. So why teach the students something and list the reason as being that the student can apply this training to any regulator configuration? That is just ridiculous.

The knowledge that I can donate my primary with both a standard setup and a long hose setup does not benefit me as a student in any way. When more optimal methods are appropriate for each individual setup, I will never be switching between setups without being familiar with those methods. No OW diver is going to swap to a long hose setup without first learning how the long hose setup works (because learning how it works is what convinces 100% of divers to adopt the long hose), so the offhand knowledge that "you always donate the primary" is useless and redundant. Teaching this only serves to preclude training students a method that is much more optimized for their current configuration, from a student perspective.

Obviously, the stated reason of being able to donate the primary with any configuration is for the benefit of the instructor, as he is able to teach this to a class of students with each individual student having a different setup from the next.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

You are right but the loose tank led to the inavalability of air to the OOA diver. the DIR answer of the long hose does address the dangly octo because it is on a lanyard around the doners neck and can not be lost for the donor. Again the dangly octo is another instance where the OOA can not find an air source but what is in the donors mouth. and then the poor donor then can not find the octo for them self.

No intention to set the stage for a hijack and I hope no one uses my post as an excuse to do so. The whys of the loose tank is moot once you get to the point you cant get air.

What I was getting at as far as the loose tank was that if the BC in question had two cam bands then the problem probably would have never happened. So one faulty problem lead to another problem lead to another problem. This is usually how it goes in scuba related accidents. Weak spots tend to find other weak spots really easily.

 

[KenGordon]

. No OW diver is going to swap to a long hose setup without first learning how the long hose setup works (because learning how it works is what convinces 100% of divers to adopt the long hose).

Neither of these statements is true all the time. The first is why pushing techniques online is poor behaviour. As to the second, I have a buddy trained by TDI who sticks with keeping his reg in his mouth if I need gas I take the yellow hose and leave him in peace.

This is a religious issue. Rational arguments do not apply. Faith is the order of the day.

I had to check the url, I honestly thought that the video was a spoof.

 

[oldschoolto]

I can't believe you guys have so much trouble with the simple thing of sharing air... Is it that frink'n hard to do... We would buddy breath with a double hose ... I just don't get all this... We have people talking about shorten a hose by 6" to be more streamlined and then a diver that thinks we need a 7' hose so the OOA diver is not to close??? Now in cave or wreck diving the long hose makes sense... Do you people practice buddy breathing and air sharing on every few dives to stay tuned up, Or just wait till it's the real deal and hope it works out ??? And didn't you learn in OW training to keep checking your gear throughout the dive ???

Jim....

 

[DevonDiver]

No, Jim, most of them don't. The people active here on Scubaboard aren't representative of the vast majority of divers. People are getting OW qualified in 2.5 days....so how do you expect their skills to be...?

The fact is, most people can fuddle through an air-share if their life depended in it. A proportion won't, and will end up bent or drowned. But - statistically - that proportion isn't deemed significant enough to force more extensive, less profitable, minimum training standards...

Long-hose, short-hose, AIR2, pony, Spare Air, blah blah blah... for most recreational divers these options gave zero impact on safety for so long as they remain in a gross skill deficit...

But this is Scubaboard; so we might assume that everyone weighing in on the topic was diligently trained and contentiously devotes hours per month on keeping their critical skills at an applaudable level...

 

[Centrals]

There is nothing wrong to seek a better or safer solution.
I was taught to donate the alternative in my ow course. In my rescue course when I pull out the alternative for the "OOA diver", the mouth piece was dislodged and stuck inside the holder. So the "OOA diver" had to breath without it. And I thought there must be a better way to stow and deploy the alternative safely and quickly.

I was sold on the idea of donating the primary and with the Octo bungeed under the chin in the tec course. And I have yet to come across any better idea.

Agency is slow in changing its teaching method for various reasons. And I believe imagine and prestige are some of them. No one likes to admit its method is inferior to the other.

 

[tstormdiver]

With the exception of a very few regulators that have a propitiatory hose/ 2nd stage connections, hose lengths are no problem,... Just swap them. It is not rocket science. On my recreational rig I have 3 2nd stages. I have my primary on a 36" hose, my bungee'd octo on a 20" hose & an Aqualung Air Source. The only reason my configuration is like this, is because I teach both ways of air sharing,... all with donation of the primary. The only reason the hoses have not been changed around by manufacturers is because of the "old school" thought to donating only the octo/ secondary. That in no way means hoses can not be swapped out to facilitate easier donation of the primary,... which works in nearly all configurations.

Let me also ask, for those that believe in donating the octo,... You have an OOA dive come up to you needing air,... Your octo is dangling off somewhere, not sure where (come on,.. we've all see it,... the dangling octo that has fallen out of its holder or the fact that there is NO holder).... Do you ask that OOA diver to hold on,.. while you locate it??? I have yet to see a bungee'd octo, under the chin come out of the necklace,... unless purposely removed. The only argument I have heard in favor of donating the octo is that for a VERY FEW seconds, both divers will have no regulator..... I personally believe that if a diver can not be comfortable without a regulator for a minimum of 10 seconds,.... They have no business being in the water, in the first place.