Fins and manoeuvrability

[danvolker]

Great to read such a detailed review from Guy!
As a diver with instructor level skills, his opinions are extremely valid.

I have always been a fan of Cressi fins, including the Master Frog....
I think my review of the Excellerating Force fins was "skewed" with the edge to the FF's because of individual differences between divers....In my case, having been a competitive cyclist for so long, I was able to use a kick shape with a power development for the Excellerators, that allowed me to get more out of them than I could with traditional scuba fins. My use of them, may well be so esoteric, as to be irrelevant to many divers.

The most important issue, was that Guy was able to try these himself, and find out what was best for him---he did not have to take a print rag's word, or that of a dive store, or mine, or anyone else's

Guy, thanks for taking me up on the Demo!

I hope many more SB members will!

List you can demo/ try:

• DiveR Freedive fins
• Mustang C4 carbon fiber
• Scuba Pro Jet fins
• Hollis F1's
• Mako Freedive fins ( about to buy a pair just for this)
• Force Fin Excellerating force fin
• I will see about a pair of Cressi Master Frog's as well

 

[dmaziuk]

On the swim out with the FF, my feet got sore, especially over the top of the foot where the force of the kick meets the fin.

Interesting... So I'm guessing you have regular human feet that Cressi's foot pocket fits well. With my hobbit feet FF's "strap" is the least uncomfortable foot pocket so far.
I just got a pair of merril's ortho inserts (was if Dan's suggestion? -- thanks), will see what they do on my next dive trip. Hard-soled boots as per uncfnp advise are on my list of things to try, too...

 

[guyharrisonphoto]

I have big feet-size 12-13, and wear 5 mil hard sole booties with the Cressi largest size master frog. I do say, in both reviews, that the FF is by far the most comfortable foot pocket. What I meant is that with hard kicking under a load, the FF is not stress-free (no fin can be), but it stresses the foot in different places than a regular foot pocket. The lack of pinching/squeezing on the lower foot and toe area, though, is really nice.

I am going to post some photos and final thoughts later today or tomorrow.

 

[REVAN]

Propulsion comes down to moving water, and the more water moved the better. It is hard to do this well with a small fin blade, so in general, the bigger the fin blade the better the fin is likely to perform. There are exceptions to this. The hydrofoil on my DOL-Fin is a good example of this. It has a small fin blade area, but due to the architecture of the monofin, the fin affects a large volume of water (larger than most other dive fins); so hydrodynamically, it is a very big fin. When sticking with the standard bi-fin arrangement, bigger fins are king, and that is why the long blade freediving fins work so well. The only downside is fitting it in luggage, or working in a tight space like on a dive in a confined cave or ship.

One thing that I see here is that, in general, there is a lot of room for improvement in the area of comfort and the method for attaching fins to the diver. This seems to be one area where most manufacturers have gravitated to doing the cheapest and most basic solutions and for the most part divers just accept the status quo. The top-over strap (or whatever you want to call it) on the force fins is quite similar in function to the textile binding strap system I use on my Orca monofin. That is one possible solution that could be a step in the right direction.

 

[guyharrisonphoto]

Attached are some photos of the FF Exellerators and my Cressi Master Frogs. I actually did not realize until these photos how TINY the FFs are in comparison. The fact that they give about 90% of the power of the Cressis on a flutter kick is amazing to me. I think that Bob Evans' design must have some hydrodynamic magic to it and certainly seems cutting edge, to me.

Although I believe, like Revan, that "size matters" when it comes to moving water, I think that Bob's clever design has actually resulted in a superior product to paddle fin design. Even though the FF did not perform for me quite so well in some of the other kicks, I think it is a real marvel in terms of moving water. If he put this into a size closer to the Master Frog, I think we might be talking a real comparison to big freedive fins in a much smaller package.

I'm sure its true that Dan can get even more out of them, as he kicks like a beast. I have, no joke, seen him keep up with scooter divers for pretty much an entire dive, with his DiveR HUGE freedive fins (imagine 3 master Frog blades put together on each foot!). But, I was looking for a comparison and not absolute speed, and I also used other kicks which, for me, are just as important as a flutter.

Anyway, these give a graphic visual of what I described, including that unequalled comfort foot pocket.

 

[TECreation]

Thanks for the nice analysis. You speak of power in the discussion but do not mention efficiency. How would you determine which fin is more efficient? I have been working on that problem and have developed an entirely new fin design and a testing protocol to determine the air consumption used by various fins. Take a look at this thread for more information. Please wait

 

[scubadada]

Hi Dan Volker,

Your PM box is full or inaccessible for some other reason. The last week was not the best for testing your FF. I will be back in early January and we will try again.

Good diving, Craig

 

[Aquabot]

buoyancy in water. If you dive F1's with a wetsuit, especially with steel tanks, you are forced to put trim weights on the shoulder straps to be able to hover. F1's and Jet Fins are negative in the water, Dive Rite XT's/Slipstreams are neutral in fresh, slightly positive in salt, so it helps tremendously with trim.

Not necessarily true tbone. I dive witbh f1 in a wetsuit (5mil) and my weight is in the lowest nodes on my SM harness. But you definitely right about them being heavy. Granted I also dont dive steel (yet)

Sent from my SM-G928V using Tapatalk

 

[Johanan]

I know, I know, it is not a good manner to revive old threads, all apologies! I just wanted to report, that I found the answer to my original question. I purchased the Apeks RK3 fins and EVO3 rock boots and compared them in water with my Hollis F1 fins and Fusion boots. And - yesss!!! - I felt a great improvement in my ability to perform different manoeuvres like sequencing frog kicks and back kicks, or helicopter turns, or "crab kicks" - and even motionless hovering. The latter though could depend more on the boots rather than on the fins because EVO boots are tighter and do not allow so much air in the feet.

Thus the answer is: Yes, the model of fins (and boots) can influence the manoeuvrability of a diver. Quod erat demonstrandum.

 

[Rusty Roo]

when i saw a notification for fins and maneuverability i had vietnam war veteran esque flash backs of arguments, rows, ongoing drama - not even sure anyone called them "flippers"

now i remember it was all about force fins...... going to say FORCE FIN and run away.