Force Fin Sticker shock

[pescador775]

So now you want to blame the national economic debt crisis on a company that conducts research, development and manufacturing in the United States, specifies all materials used in the manufacture of its products be made in the US, employs US citizens and contributes to reduction of the national debt by exporting its US made products? I too would love to know who you are because you obviously have not only an opinion, but an agenda.

Good, export them all.

I'm bored with critiqueing the "misunderstood genius" but your post gives me an excuse to go OT and give a short brief on the financial situation. Yes, the current accounts deficit is helped by exports. However, the ongoing situation is domestic in origin. Chiselers and morons speculating on real estate in Florida and California is an old story and has gone through phases but this time they screwed the pooch. They were helped by the culture of excess based on debt. Things like mortgage backed securities and credit swap defaults will be addressed by the Federal Reserve and Treasury and regulations will be imposed.

The question remains as to what will be done about individual self indulgence and moral dishonesty. Americans are mesmerized by things and how to get stuff. The average American has $5,000-7000 of credit card debt alone. The case I hold against Force Fin is advertising which amounts to propaganda, ridiculous claims and "tests", not to mention the "testimonials" of true believers who don't know what they are talking about. All this is to sell overpriced stuff to the gullible or the impetuous, the bored, and often these things are not needed, beyond their means in some cases, and for what? They are not any better off after the impulse spending. They are worse. There is an adage, Ben Franklin also said something similar, "take care of the small stuff and the big things will take care of themselves". You are definitely small stuff in the scheme of things and a great example of the bits and parts of an unsustainable economic system, a system in which consumers are undisciplined and child like, and spending money which they don't have on imports and domestic products. It would be great if they would stop buying some of the foreign and other sourced products and putting it in the bank or paying off debt. If would be excellent if they were funding a retirement account. If the average consumer were flush and the economy were sound, it would not be as likely to catch my attention if they were buying your over priced products, even though many foreign fins are cheaper and better. If you are saying that you only sell to lawyers, physicians and dilettants maybe you should change your strategy, you and your shills just stay away from some rooms in Scubaboard which are not overtly commercial. There are too many kids lurking here with tuition money in the balance. The consumer society drives the economy but it is driving individuals into the ground. You questioned my agenda, there it is. I'm surrounded by idiots, LOL.

 

[PriusDrIVER]

The case I hold against Force Fin is advertising which amounts to propaganda, ridiculous claims and "tests", not to mention the "testimonials" of true believers who don't know what they are talking about. All this is to sell overpriced stuff to divers which is not needed, beyond their means in some cases, and for what? They are not any better off after the impulse spending. They are worse. There is an adage, Ben Franklin also said something similar, "take care of the small stuff and the big things will take care of themselves". You are definitely small stuff in the scheme of things and a great example of the bits and parts of an unsustainable economic system.

I have no opinion on Force Fins one way or the other, I'd give a pair a try for a few dives if they were offered to me...but since I have no method to test drive them, I'll likely never get to have an informed opinion.

My issue is you stating that Force Fin engages in "propaganda" which is defined as "information, ideas, or rumors deliberately spread widely to help or harm a person, group, movement, institution, nation, etc." I don't see any intentional harm being portrayed through their advertising tactics. Do they have an idiot or two supporter on the forums that many would agree would be best served if Bob cut off association with? Perhaps, maybe even likely...but idiots still come to boards and post idiotic statements, whether endorsed by a manufacturer or not.

By bigger issue is just with your general statement. How is what Force Fin uses for advertising statements on their web site any different than a plethora of other products...including the big scuba brands? Is it somehow better that every new diver is told out the ScubaPro Twin Jet split fin is the best fin on the planet by their LDS and that if they don't buy them they are surely idiots? Is this acceptable because its Scuba Pro?

Lets look at statements Scuba Pro places on their Twin Jet Max (which street for ~$180):
- proven to deliver more forward motion with considerably less effort than traditional blades
- substantially decrease resistance on both up and down strokes
- foot pocket is bio-engineered for optimum fit and comfort while seamlessly transferring energy from the diver to the fin
- extended soleplate acts like a lever to enhance power stroke

Now, how is anything on the Force Fin web site worse than those statements? The added blurbs of their 'supporters' on the forums are no worse than the added enforcements Scuba Pro gets from their 'supporters', the LDS.

If you want to talk about propaganda that encourages excess, start slamming all of the LDS that encourage buying unncessary equipment.

Now, if you want to try blaming economic situation on anyone...why are you starting with a little dinky company with the net revenue that is equal to the tax loop holes of the companies that are more likely to be blamed...and unlikely to have anything to do with scuba. If you need corporate targets, you can start with the big "American" car companies, then land developers and builders, then you can move on to the mortgage lenders, then the wall street that backed them. Or, maybe we can simplify things and just start going after the center or the problem, deregulation...or "self-regulation" as the investment banks would like to call it.

However, none of the economic discussions belong in this thread or section of the forum. I apologize for further taking it off track.
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[TN Traveler]

See, here is the thing, some people do an odd "frog" kick that uses the front face of the fin, the frog kick that I use is done with the bottom face of the fin. So, you are telling me that you can do a proper frog kick with the bottom face of a Force Fin? How is that possible since the Force Fins I have fold up --as they are intended---for low effort recovery when force is applied in that direction. Using the bottom face of the fin to frog kick is impossible thus far for me---please explain the method.

As to how to kick a FF, I fully understand, been using them since around 86. Long enough to know what they can and cannot do and what they excel at and what they suck at and they plain suck at doing a frog kick. I also don't like the surface slap while snorkeling either. Ever do any bass fishing? Have you seen those top water lures with the little propellers and all that makes all sorts of noise to lure a delicious bass into biting? Well, somehow with all the slap, slap, gurgle, slap of FF while surface swimming I feel like a human sized bass lure. Combine that with yum yum yellow and we have the prefect shark popper.

N

Oh, and TN, they are not vintage compliant.

N

I did not mean to imply YOU did not know how to kick with FF - I included that info for those who thought about giving them a "quick try".

As far as my doing a "proper" frog kick - I do a frog kick the same way, whatever fins I use - maybe I do it slower than some and therefore my fins don't collapse.

I agree - they are not good for snorkeling - but then again, none of my dive fins are good for snorkeling (and since my Bio-fins are yellow - I'm sure they would make for a perfect shark lure). :shocked2:

As far as not being "Vintage Compliant" - I have not been that since they came out with silicone masks .

I would prefer to refer to my style as "eclectic" - I use what feels good and works well. -

I hate stiff, heavy fins (bad knees) - don't use oval masks (anymore) - prefer neoprene to Rubatex - like computers - and use single hose regs (w/long hose), at times. I doubt that using a Mach V on a SS backplate is "Vintage Compliant" either and a PRAM is questionable (I did learn on a DAAM in '69) . But my favorite reg is still a Double Hose (PRAM) on a Freedom Plate - mostly for lack of bubble interference and because my dive buddy insists I have an octo for her in case of emergency - and I like FFs.

To paraphrase the "Sage" of Double Hose - a double hose reg does not a Vintage Diver make - so I guess I'll have to forgo my membership in NAVED. :mooner:

 

[Underwater Ogre]

I love force fins...use em all the time have. Most of the people I dive with use them. We never have any problems doing what we want to do.
key points-
1. There do cost more then most "conventional fins".
2. They don't feel like a "conventional fins"
3. You can frog kick...its just different.
4. Mobility is great...you have to get used to them.
5. Tech divers do use them...trust me on this one.
6. They are awesome for getting around on the boat.
7. They are damn near indestructible.

Would I buy an $800 pair of fins?...No I cant justify it...but I wont buy any other brand of fin.
I am sure they are great fins and would love to try a pair...but we all live and purchase within our means.
O

 

[uncleavi]

Pescador775,
fighting on the internet is like the Special Olympics, even if you win you're still retarded.
I love my Force Fins and Bob Evans makes the best Fins in the world. Are you that bitter in life that you have to bad mouth a very good friend of mine?
How very sad you are.

 

[almitywife]

Pescador775,
fighting on the internet is like the Special Olympics, even if you win you're still retarded.
I love my Force Fins and Bob Evans makes the best Fins in the world. Are you that bitter in life that you have to bad mouth a very good friend of mine?
How very sad you are.

in all honestly, i dont see anyone bad mouthing your very good friend

what i see is people trying to discuss the merits of a particular item of equipment V its price and those that are die hard fans making it personal by attacking those that dont hold the same opinion as theirs

geez, i dont see zeagle, oceanic, other manufacturers or their devotees getting their knickers in a twist just because someone doesnt love their product as much as they feel they should

freedom of discussion is a good thing - if anything this thread may have sold a pair or 2 of them

 

[scubafanatic]

I love force fins...use em all the time have. Most of the people I dive with use them. We never have any problems doing what we want to do.
key points-
1. There do cost more then most "conventional fins".
2. They don't feel like a "conventional fins"
3. You can frog kick...its just different.
4. Mobility is great...you have to get used to them.
5. Tech divers do use them...trust me on this one.
6. They are awesome for getting around on the boat.
7. They are damn near indestructible.

Would I buy an $800 pair of fins?...No I cant justify it...but I wont buy any other brand of fin.
I am sure they are great fins and would love to try a pair...but we all live and purchase within our means.
O

....tech divers do use them ??? trust me on this one ????? ...I've never seen a 'tech' diver use them...never seen them sold or promoted on any DIR/GUE oriented site/store/shop/book/video/DVD/instruction. Can you share with us the basis for your statement ?

 

[scubafanatic]

I have owned and still own Force Fins. I have had three different pairs, the Original, the Pro and the Pro Tan or whatever it is. I enjoy using them but they are really a niche fin. I find them noisy and inefficient for surface swimming and snorkeling, slap, slap, slap. It is true they are suitable for the flutter kick only and essentially suck at a frog or side scissor etc. I bought them for tropical travel due to their lightweight but since they are unsuitable for snorkeling this left me carrying a second set of fins which defeated my reason for getting them to begin with, to lighten up and simplify my travel kit.

I also find that the Force Fin lacks maneuverability and fine control, the design is intended to produce most of it's thrust on the down kick and little or nothing on the recovery. OK, fine but since the fin folds on the up stroke that also means you cannot exert any upward force to rotate your body along it's axis. I find them easy to drop the bow (head) but difficult to raise the bow since they cannot apply any real upward force.

If they make a polyurethane Jet Fin in clear blue or yellow I will give you 700 dollars for that and heck, I bet you could install whiskers on a Jet Fin blade for improved dynamic sinusoidal asymmetric thrust vectoring.

N

...the Vulcan Science Directorate has clearly stated that DSATV (dynamic sinusoidal asymmetric thrust vectoring) is an unstable propulsion technology for any civilization not having mastered 'dark energy' containment fields...the quantum flux will cause immediate collapse of any vacuum energy photonic domains.

 

[Scubakevdm]

come spend a day with me at our plant and you will be using the VASELINE on your own...

Wow, what is it that you guys do during a day at the plant?

 

[Scubakevdm]

$786.25 base price for Excellerating Force Fin before other options.
Man...I just want a pair not half a dozen.

Wow $700.00 dollars for fins!?!

Get off the $ 700.00 fin that is not what we do.

Okay, okay, please! Just don't make me come to the plant anymore!