Gear Advice - Scubapro X-Tek Form Tek Harness

[HowardE]

-1 for the ScubaPro harness and wing. It's over-convoluted and designed to appeal to novice divers preconceptions, rather than actual users needs.

Ever tried it? Amazingly, it's very much like some other famous brand that everyone loves. hmm..

 

[Ozwald]

-1 for the ScubaPro harness and wing. It's over-convoluted and designed to appeal to novice divers preconceptions, rather than actual users needs.

There's many better, and cheaper, alternatives on the market. Go simple and cheap - upgrade if you need to. BP&W are meant to be modular - thus easy, economical and straight-forward to upgrade to your personal preferences. Opting for an expensive, non-customizable rig defies all logic.

When you refer to "customizable" what are you referring to?

 

[DevonDiver]

Ever tried it? Amazingly, it's very much like some other famous brand that everyone loves. hmm..

Please don't think I need to try a harness type to gauge it's design. I've dove in quite enough 'comfort' and 'deluxe' type harnesses to understand the conceptual differences between them and a single-piece design.

What I'm commenting on specifically was the 'Form' harness...

As for similarities... yes, the BP/Wing approach is very similar. Except the Scubapro is more expensive than much of it's competition... for instance, the DRIS wing, which is also near identical to 'H'... but with a price tag of $300 all-in.

When you refer to "customizable" what are you referring to?

A hogarthian approach - more like the 'Pure' harness... except you can DIY the same thing for under $20, rather than pay $75-100 for the Scubapro version. I see on Scubatoys that the DiveRite basic harness is $26 complete.

Same for the backplate... there's bunches of cheap ones...and ones on Ebay/Craigslist... you don't need to pay $100+

 

[arthurmnev]

How exactly do you know what the user's needs are since you didnt bother asking. If you object to ScubaPro's practice in business world, keep that out of this conversation as their business practice has nothing to do with this conversation.

As for convoluted design : care to explain?
Which part is convoluted?
What is the negative effect of it?

 

[Ozwald]

A hogarthian approach - more like the 'Pure' harness... except you can DIY the same thing for under $20, rather than pay $75-100 for the Scubapro version. I see on Scubatoys that the DiveRite basic harness is $26 complete.

Same for the backplate... there's bunches of cheap ones...and ones on Ebay/Craigslist... you don't need to pay $100+[/QUOTE]

So you mean 'cheap" as opposed to "customizable" then.

 

[DevonDiver]

How exactly do you know what the user's needs are since you didnt bother asking.

Something to do with 20 years of diving and having trodden the same path myself...made mistakes and learned from them.

Also, something to do with having trialled 15+ varied harness types over the space of 5000+ dives, for a range of application, and having a comprehensive understanding of diver needs, based on having dived with thousands (literally) of other divers, having taught the full spectrum of scuba courses - rec and tech...

...coupled with a clear understanding of 'need' versus 'want'. i.e. A diver needs a harness that securely and comfortably allows them to carry a backplate, wing, cylinder and ancillaries. A diver may want to spend $$$'s to accomplish that purpose, but doesn't need to.

How exactly do you know I am not addressing the user's needs?

If you object to ScubaPro's practice in business world, keep that out of this conversation as their business practice has nothing to do with this conversation.

But I don't. I gave a review and advice. And some facts: i.e. Scubapro charge $78 for a harness identical to the one that DiveRite charge $26 for.

Why would you interpret that as an attack on Scubapro. If it helps balance the issue, I'm the proud owner of 6 Scubapro regulator sets, which I think are excellent. I also rather like my Scubapro wetsuit. I think Scubapro Jetfins are pretty nifty also.

I also recall that I did compare one Scubapro harness against the other - offering a recommendation that does suit the majority of diver's needs. I added to that a note on the cost of their version of a basic harness, which was exceptionally high compared to some competitors and especially when compared with doing it DIY (which is a very simple task).

I do object to anyone charging 3x the market value for a basic item (hog harness) though. That seems unfair to the consumer, who might not know otherwise (unless some kindly soul highlights it on an internet forum).

As for convoluted design : care to explain?
Which part is convoluted?
What is the negative effect of it?

It's Saturday night here, so that explanation will have to be delayed. In the meantime, I'd refer you to the countless threads discussing harness pros and cons... especially in regards to 'Hogarthian' concepts... that you can access readily via a site search.

A hogarthian approach - more like the 'Pure' harness... except you can DIY the same thing for under $20, rather than pay $75-100 for the Scubapro version. I see on Scubatoys that the DiveRite basic harness is $26 complete.

Same for the backplate... there's bunches of cheap ones...and ones on Ebay/Craigslist... you don't need to pay $100+

So you mean 'cheap" as opposed to "customizable" then.

I meant what I said, although I did cover several issues.

Customizable - the user can locate attachments and ancillaries where they want them, along with infinite size adjustment and option to upgrade or adapt according to their needs.

Cheap - two otherwise identical items offered for sale; one for $78 and one for $26. Do I need to explain why that may be a factor?

 

[fjpatrum]

How exactly do you know what the user's needs are since you didnt bother asking. If you object to ScubaPro's practice in business world, keep that out of this conversation as their business practice has nothing to do with this conversation.

As for convoluted design : care to explain?
Which part is convoluted?
What is the negative effect of it?

OK, you ask for opinions on the gear you've selected and then complain that people didn't ask what your intentions for said gear were when you got responses that said your gear isn't what they would have selected. What is the benefit.

As for the convoluted design, please re-read posts 11, 13, 14, 18, 21, 23 & 25 (your own posts), ,26, & 33. Convoluted implies too many things that are simply unnecessary, like padding, lots of d-rings, fixed position of d-rings etc etc. As has been pointed out by several people, the padding will require extra weight because it adds innate buoyancy to the rig. The d-rings should be adjustable because it's the best solution for divers of different sizes who are doing different types of diving with different accessories. Sternum straps, are unnecessary though I will admit to liking them--especially while on land. The negative effects of these things are already explained in the justifications people have given you for not liking them in the first place. Let me be specific:
1) Added lead requirements
2) Lack of adjustability for different diving needs (hence the lack of the question of what your needs are--a hog harness fits all the options well unless you have injuries that require padding etc etc)
3) Price

The fact that it's scubapro gear really doesn't matter except for price. While some people don't mind paying a brand-name tax, pointing out the fact that someone can buy the exact same harness for $50 less or a similar harness for 1/3 the price (in the case of the "Pure") is a valid consideration for most people. Is it really reasonable to charge someone $78 for a harness they can make themselves (In about 10 minutes) for less than $20? I don't think so, but I'm a cheap bastard.

I made my own hog-style harness after only diving a Transpac because the hog harness was cheaper. That was the only real reason. I also bought a Salvo SS plate because it was (at the time) the cheapest one I found and a plate is a plate. They all work equally well and perform the exact same function so why should I spend my money on a more expensive brand? They're all the same materials, the workmanship is essentially identical, why pay extra? Would you do that two cars of equal workmanship and function? Would you do it for your home computer? How about your dinner? If so, that's okay, but if not, why should diving equipment be any different?


As I said in my first post, I don't care about brand. My scubapro reg is the best breather I have, hands down. It's excellent, without question. A harness and plate, though, don't have any significant differences in design and adding "bells and whistles" doesn't really provide a diver anything beneficial. The pros and cons of hog style versus the scubapro have already been pointed out. The decision is still yours though, and you don't have to justify it to anyone else. If you're satisfied with the harness, buy it, dive it, enjoy it. That's the point, right?

 

[DevonDiver]

For what's it's worth, I went out yesterday and bought a new ali BP & Hog Harness. They're a well-regarded local brand, very similar to DiveRite. To all intent and purposes, identical to the 'Pure' harness and backplate.

It'll be used for single-tank rec diving, doubles tech diving and sidemount... for travel, for rental, for underwater photography and videography and for personal use in a range of site and conditions (including some highly technical wreck penetrations). I think that covers, and goes well beyond, the 'needs' of the average novice diver.

Total cost: $48.

 

[Ozwald]

OK, you ask for opinions on the gear you've selected and then complain that people didn't ask what your intentions for said gear were when you got responses that said your gear isn't what they would have selected. What is the benefit.

As for the convoluted design, please re-read posts 11, 13, 14, 18, 21, 23 & 25 (your own posts), ,26, & 33. Convoluted implies too many things that are simply unnecessary, like padding, lots of d-rings, fixed position of d-rings etc etc. As has been pointed out by several people, the padding will require extra weight because it adds innate buoyancy to the rig. The d-rings should be adjustable because it's the best solution for divers of different sizes who are doing different types of diving with different accessories. Sternum straps, are unnecessary though I will admit to liking them--especially while on land. The negative effects of these things are already explained in the justifications people have given you for not liking them in the first place. Let me be specific:
1) Added lead requirements
2) Lack of adjustability for different diving needs (hence the lack of the question of what your needs are--a hog harness fits all the options well unless you have injuries that require padding etc etc)
3) Price

The fact that it's scubapro gear really doesn't matter except for price. While some people don't mind paying a brand-name tax, pointing out the fact that someone can buy the exact same harness for $50 less or a similar harness for 1/3 the price (in the case of the "Pure") is a valid consideration for most people. Is it really reasonable to charge someone $78 for a harness they can make themselves (In about 10 minutes) for less than $20? I don't think so, but I'm a cheap bastard.

I made my own hog-style harness after only diving a Transpac because the hog harness was cheaper. That was the only real reason. I also bought a Salvo SS plate because it was (at the time) the cheapest one I found and a plate is a plate. They all work equally well and perform the exact same function so why should I spend my money on a more expensive brand? They're all the same materials, the workmanship is essentially identical, why pay extra? Would you do that two cars of equal workmanship and function? Would you do it for your home computer? How about your dinner? If so, that's okay, but if not, why should diving equipment be any different?


As I said in my first post, I don't care about brand. My scubapro reg is the best breather I have, hands down. It's excellent, without question. A harness and plate, though, don't have any significant differences in design and adding "bells and whistles" doesn't really provide a diver anything beneficial. The pros and cons of hog style versus the scubapro have already been pointed out. The decision is still yours though, and you don't have to justify it to anyone else. If you're satisfied with the harness, buy it, dive it, enjoy it. That's the point, right?

I believe the original post asked for "experiences" did it not rather than opinions?

 

[DevonDiver]

From experience I'd vouch for everything fjpatrum describes.

Besides which, I think we've all had experience in our lives of buying something - only to later find out we could have gotten an identical product a lot cheaper.