Have any of you guys ever shot a real gun underwater, or as shark repellent?

Discussion in 'Basic Scuba Discussions' started by Jackknife, Feb 15, 2003.

  1. Jackknife

    Jackknife Barracuda

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    I heard that you can shoot the glock pistol underwater and that it can be used as protection against predators. What do you guys think about that? Bang Sticks are illegal in many states from what I understand.

    I wonder what effects it would have underwater, and how far a bullet like a .45 or 9mm will travel underwater and still be effective enough to penetrate the skin of a big animal like a 12'+ shark? If it gets close shoot it right in the head or multiple shots in the gills or other areas.

    Would it actually be dangerous to shoot underwater or is it more of a noice maker?
     
  2. raybo

    raybo Barracuda

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    1. Do they make the bullets waterproof now. I was raised that this was the biggest issue of having a gun (ammo) around water.

    2. I truly don't know, but am curious. Does the ammo need the oxygen in the air to combust? Will it even go "bang"?

    3. What about hearing protection if it does work? A large caliber handgun is loud in air, and I'd wear some kind of muff even on the surface. Given the density of water, the shockwave must do a number on the ears.

    4. Is a Glock one of the new "synthetic" material items. Would think seawater would not be very freindly to steel!
     
  3. roturner

    roturner ScubaBoard Supporter ScubaBoard Supporter

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    Location: Rotterdam, Netherlands, Netherlands
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    Protection from what? The only monsters in the deep are the ones between the divers ears. :)

    R..
     
  4. SARmedic

    SARmedic Angel Fish

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    The bullet will only travel a very short distance, even if you could fire it. They have long sticks that have high pressure canisters on the end that fire into sharks, but that is only in extreme situations. Sharks don't bother you unless you swim with a bag of chum or something.

    Not to mention that it's probably illegal.
     
  5. Lawman

    Lawman Senior Member

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    the ammo is waterproof. That plug of water in the
    barrel should make for some interesting chamber]
    pressures though. The slug would be moving so slow
    and thru a very thick medium I doubt if it would go more
    than about 3'.
    I sure wouldn't do it.:eek:
     
  6. DiverBuoy

    DiverBuoy Scuba Instructor

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    On this webpage you will find a video detailing everything you want to know about firing 9 different handguns underwater. It answers all the questions like

    What happens when you shoot Glock 19 underwater ? How about a Colt 1911, S&W revolver, Sig Sauer P-229, Ruger 22? Over 9 different handguns in all are shot, tested and evaluated underwater. Are handguns effective underwater? How far and how fast will the bullet travel? Will the automatics cycle another round? Are revolvers better? How loud is it underwater and above water?

    Underwater Shooting Tests and Evaluations
     
  7. detroit diver

    detroit diver Great White

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    Bad link.


     
  8. DiverBuoy

    DiverBuoy Scuba Instructor

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    Fixed in your quote too.
     
  9. narcT

    narcT Nassau Grouper

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    12+ foot shark? Where are you diving?

    Considering I have seen photo's of shooting victims that took 33 9mm bullet hits before going down, I don't think a 12+ foot shark would be very impressed by a couple of 9mm bullets?

    12ga might work, but then your back to the bang stick:bonk:
     
  10. roturner

    roturner ScubaBoard Supporter ScubaBoard Supporter

    # of Dives: 1,000 - 2,499
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    If you ask me, shooting, or sticking a shark with anything is asking for a Darwin award.

    My uncle caught a 3 ft long shark while trolling from a kayak once. He got it up to the boat before he realised what it was, pulled it up over the kayak like the large hairy and big-balled individual he was, stuck a knife in it's skull and "stirred". When he threw it back in the water it just swam away like nothing had happened.

    My guess is that your ray-gun or whatever it was, even if you *were* to need help won't help. And if you tried to use it preventatively the encounter would go like this:

    CHOMP
    OH SH*T WHERE'S MY RAY-GUN :eek:
    CHOMP
    Got it :makeday:
    CHOMP
    Bang
    Bang
    CHOMP

    Game over.

    and some time later if you miraculously didn't kill your buddy in the process the shark dies from laughter.

    Don't forget, sharks can move 20 times faster than divers. Ever try shooting a moving target from anything other than point-blank range? How about one 20 times faster than you? Ever try doing that in a medium 800 times more dense than air?

    I mean, leave the gun at home. Even if guns *were* the panacea of self-protection they would be useless against anything big and fast enough to make you think you needed it.

    R..
     
  11. GTADiver

    GTADiver Barracuda

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    Its hard enough to register a hand gun in Canada for legitimate reasons. Somehow, I dont think the CFC would accept u/w protection as an acceptable purpose. lol
     
  12. Bob3

    Bob3 Dive Shop

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  13. tnk120184

    tnk120184 Angel Fish

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    Why in the world would you want too? Yes, you can fire weapons underwater, but accuracy, mechanical function of the weapon itself, and lethality are greatly deminished. Seem's to me if there really was a need for self-protection from predators while sport diving, something would have been made availiable years ago. Also, the weapons industry and those of us who enjoy recreational shooting have enough problems already without having divers carrying weapons for so called personal defense! Although brand new to diving, I do have considerable experience in weapons as I have been a military weapons trainer for over 18 years. Take my advice, dive somewhere else and leave the weapons at home!
     
  14. raybo

    raybo Barracuda

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    I need one of those for my sailboat. Those things are worse than mosquitos.

    Around here we've taken to referring to them as "Lake Lice"
     
  15. dmdalton

    dmdalton Barracuda

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    Here is the skinny from the "Top Glock" web site:

    "Can I shoot my Glock underwater?

    Just about any handgun will fire underwater -- at least once. :) However, firing underwater is NOT recommended because it can have devastating effects on the pistol and the shooter -- a potentially dangerous activity that should only be utilized by trained personnel wearing proper equipment for protection against potential pressure wave effects of underwater detonation. The shock/pressure waves in water can really damage internal organs (ever heard of lithotripsy?). Shooting a pistol underwater can lead to property damage, serious bodily injury or even death.

    NOTE: Glock, Inc., specifically disclaims any and all liability from anyone performing or attempting to perform underwater firing with a Glock pistol -- you do so at your own risk.

    The Glock 17 may be equipped with an optional set of maritime spring cups for use in water environments. Maritime spring cups are not intended for submerged firing, but for surface use by special ops teams who operate in and around water. The maritime spring cups are two small parts within the firing pin assembly and are not included on any Model 17 sold by Glock (civilians can only get them through 3rd parties). They insure that water can pass by the firing pin within the firing pin channel, thus preventing the creation of hydraulic force within the firing pin channel -- which would slow the firing pin down, causing light primer strikes. With the special cups, the action will cycle reliably while submersed, if a little bit slower. NATO specification ammunition (such as Winchester's Ranger RA9124N) with waterproof sealed primers and case mouths is recommended.

    Although you may install the maritime spring cups on any Glock model, *only* the Glock 17 was designed and intended to use the modified spring cups for aquatic firing -- and only then using 9mm ball ammunition to remain within acceptable pressure limits. The foolhardy who insist on living dangerously must keep several things in mind: The Glock 17 must be fully submersed underwater. There must not be any air left within the pistol as the muzzle is pointed towards the surface of the water after submersion to allow the air in the barrel to escape. Use only full metal jacket, ball-type ammunition because the water within the barrel can spread a hollow point out within the barrel upon firing. This increases the bearing surface of the bullet to the barrel and could catastrophically increase pressures. Even if the barrel doesn't burst, the expanded bullet would get even bigger upon exiting into the water and would slow down very quickly while tumbling. Accuracy would be terrible.

    The marinized Glock 17 is primarily for use by various Special Warfare units operating in aquatic environments. At least one specialized Scuba diving group regularly uses G17's to dispatch sharks where they dive. The Glock 17 using NATO specification ball ammunition will completely penetrate a minimum of one 1/2" pine board at a distance of ten feet from the muzzle when fired underwater.

    Trained personnel who use Glocks underwater know they must obey several rules:
    1) use only a Glock Model 17 with amphibious spring cups (reliability issue);
    2) use only 9mm FMJ subsonic, sealed primer ammo;
    3) completely immerse the pistol and get *all* the air out of the barrel;
    4) wear protective ear plugs, gloves, wet suit, face mask, etc.;
    5) do not fire near solid objects or in enclosed spaces to prevent return
    concussion.

    However, any Glock -- even those not equipped with maritime spring cups -- will normally fire while submersed underwater. But doing so may generate excessive internal pressure and may cause the pistol to literally blow up. This is especially true with the use of high-pressure rounds (such as the .40 S&W/357 SIG) or hollow-point bullets.

    I recall a reported incident where a Glockster on a boating holiday decided to show some friends how his Glock would fire underwater (because Tommy Lee Jones said so in the movies). He stuck his hand overboard, pulled the trigger and came back with a bunch of shredded plastic and a badly injured hand.

    Another reported case was the Glockster who decided to try out his Glock 23 .40 S&W in the swimming pool after seeing pictures of Glocks being fired underwater on the web. He was totally submerged, with the gun, as he fired at a piece of wood on the bottom of his pool. The Glock did fire, the .40 S&W FMJ round left the barrel and went into the wood. The chamber also exploded and implanted shrapnel into his leg. Thinking that the water would muffle the blast, he did not wear hearing protection (the blast is actually about 4 times louder underwater). He is now mostly deaf in one ear and hears high-pitched tones most of his waking life.

    As you can see, firing a pistol underwater is a *very* dangerous endeavor.
    Several things could happen:
    1) the firing pin may be slowed enough to not detonate the primer
    (without the maritime spring cups)
    2) the pistol could blow up in your hand;
    3) the concussion could damage ears, eyes or internal organs;
    4) the bullet may not go where you intend it to.

    Even if you have the right equipment, know what you're doing and follow the rules -- the risks for underwater firing are minimized -- but not eliminated. Your pistol's barrel could be affected by water obstruction and your body by damaging concussion. By using hollow point bullets (water may cause the bullet to expand in the barrel), high pressure ammo, etc. -- you're asking for an underwater kaBoom! It you fire near solid or hard objects, the bouncing concussion can cause extensive, perhaps even fatal external/internal tissue injury. Why risk it?
    Rev 2/2000 by JT ©2000 Blue Ridge Bullseye."

    Moral of the story? If you want protection get a "Bang Stick"

    Dave D.
     
  16. GTADiver

    GTADiver Barracuda

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    Thanks for sharing that info. Learn something new every day on this board.
    Thanks
     
  17. Cave Diver

    Cave Diver Moderator Staff Member

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    And to think, the only reason I aint tried my Glock underwater yet is cuz I figured the laser sight wasnt water proof...

    Damn pesky trigger fish!:m16:
     
  18. roakey

    roakey Old, not bold diver ScubaBoard Supporter

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    Useless information I've stumbled upon.

    Years ago when I was young and stupid (I'm no longer young) I fired a .357 magnum bangstick into a rock wall to see what it was like. The wall reflected so much of the blast back at me I just about saw double. Note to self: Don't do that again. Next time was a rock in the middle of nowhere and it wasn't nearly as bad. However, immediately after it went off a shark showed up to investigate the noise. New note to self: Stop shooting the thing off if you don't need to!

    The bangstick was a "contact firearm" for lack of a better term. What caused a huge amount of damage were the gasses that follwed the bullet into the body, not necessarily the bullet itself. I would imagine this is how you'd deploy a Glock as well -- given that most sharks do a couple of "drive bys" before attacking theory is you could pop them as thet went by. If it's a one-shot attack you're not going to be able to do anything, that's a given.

    There was a spear called a "Shark Dart" in the late 70s that ran on some kind of compressed gas that was just a giant hypodermic needle that you'd hit the shark with and even though there wasn't any projectile, it'd inflate the shark and send it up, safely out of your way. Never saw one used, however.

    There was a Stainless Steel 1911 made for a number of years by Randall. They had an underwater firing test and the oddity was that if you fired a .45 into water it penetrated 6-8', max. However, firing it underwater resulted in the bullet travelling 15-18'.

    Barrel obstructions. Oddly, a barrel full of water isn't as much a concern as a "plug" at the end of the barrel. Even a little snow in the muzzle of a shotgun can cause "complete and rapid dissassembly of the firearm" as we used to call it. However there's all sorts of stories about people having a squib and putting a bullet in the barrel right in front of the chamber and firing a round behind it without any kind of explosion (though it's certainly not any good for the firearm).

    My wife did this with a 1911 in .45 where the first bullet was halfway down the barrel. Bulged the barrel and locked up the gun but good on the barrel bushing, but no explosion. Had to hammer the gun open, but after dropping in another barrel the gun was as good as new and is in use today (and I have the old barrel to show my students "Don't do this!").

    Roak
     
  19. Bob3

    Bob3 Dive Shop

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    raybo sez:
    The .50 cal BMG as a powerhead/Bangstick round is great, but it's still a contact device.

    Here's what ya need for stand-off deterrence:
    http://www.west.net/~lpm/hobie/archives/v1-i2/humor.shtml

    Remember now, this is to be used ONLY for self defense, as Jet Skis are WAY more dangerous to divers than sharks !!!
    ;)
     
  20. Jeffe

    Jeffe Guest

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    Jet Skis= Lake Lice
    Geeze !
    I really like that !
    Yep, i'm gona' get me one of them .50 cal Powerheads for my Rhino Speargun.
     

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