In Coz: You, Your Buddy, Your Group and Your DM. Who should do what?

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Hi Craig,

I have to disagree a little. The number of dives one has is in no way an indicator of a good diver. If those 15 quarry dives were all cluster-ups and were dives where bad habits were reinforced, then I'd say that number of dives wouldn't matter much. The opposite could be true as well. I've been with divers with 500 dives and to be honest they were total clusters in the water. In fact I did a rescue on a diver with about 450 dives a few years ago in FL and it was due to relatively minor equipment issues.

I'd rather dive with someone who has 15 solid correct dives where problems were solved than with someone with 15 poor dives.

Again, the number of dives a person has isn't necessarily an indicator of how well they will handle a problem underwater.


To be honest I don't think that there are any dives anywhere that will duplicate the dives in any one location and in general 15 dives should mean 15 buddy checks, 15 descents, 15 opportunities for gas management, 15 minor issues as will happen on any dive and 15 safe ascents - a whole lot better than a new diver arriving on the island fresh out of padi course. Christi has to have some line in the sand and 15 seems a reasonable number as 15 in a year is more than just a "vacation diver"

Also to be fair 15 quarry dives - even at 30 feet - can result in a huge learning curve. With the lack of good viz and the cold that goes along with most quarry dives that is some serious task loading and I would sooner dive with a 15 quarry dive diver than a 30 dive vacation diver. At Dutch springs, PA where I certified, 30 feet is thermocline territory and although the zebra mussles have improved viz you are still talking poor viz with COLD water - now that makes for beefy divers.

I have dived approx 250 dives and still consider myself a beginner - I shudder to think that my 8th dive was in Coz off of a cruise ship with Sand Dollar and a deep wall with a ripping current - mainly because despite my training I had no idea what potential dangers awaited me - Hey I was on a cruise line with RCL - they would never let anything happen to me - Whew - there but for the grace of God goes I
 
Hi Craig,

I have to disagree a little. The number of dives one has is in no way an indicator of a good diver. If those 15 quarry dives were all cluster-ups and were dives where bad habits were reinforced, then I'd say that number of dives wouldn't matter much. The opposite could be true as well. I've been with divers with 500 dives and to be honest they were total clusters in the water. In fact I did a rescue on a diver with about 450 dives a few years ago in FL and it was due to relatively minor equipment issues.

I'd rather dive with someone who has 15 solid correct dives where problems were solved than with someone with 15 poor dives.

Again, the number of dives a person has isn't necessarily an indicator of how well they will handle a problem underwater.


Randy, no one is saying that the number of dives is an absolute measure of diving abilities and even a diver with 500 dives on Santa Rosa wall could still be a lousy diver as their are so many components that go into diving, these include skills, attitude and maturity.

However as a surrogate marker for a dive op bieng comfortable about taking out a diver who arrives on their door steps I do think it is reasonable for Christi to expect that less than 15 dives needs a DM.

Frankly a 10 dive diver has just not had enough experience to be a safe competent diver and yes it is possible to have 450 dives and still not be a good diver but in reality if after 450 dives you are still not a good diver it is most likely an attitude issue and it unlikely that a DM is going to change that.

Every diver is different but when one arrives on her door step Christi has to make an evaluation as to their skills and the reality is that as a surrogate marker - aside from specific exceptions - dive number will correlate to some degree with ability.

Craig
 
Posted this in the original thread but may be more appropriate for this thread

Perhaps it might be time that the Cozumel Dive Assosc. come out with a flyer that needs to be signed by all divers explaining clearly what the role of the DM is. In my early dives in Coz I too was under the mistaken idea that a DM's job was to keep me alive at all costs and perhaps that was because I had the distinct fortune of diving with Pedro Pablo who is one of the few people I know who can guide a dive, find fishies and critters and also aid with all the issues that the divers might have. Clearly he is one of a very select bunch.

If divers were aware what the actual role of the DM was it might go a long way in making divers more responsible for their diving and the situations they allow themselves to be placed in, in Cozumel specifically. As an off shoot it would likely improve revenue to the dive ops as I am sure there are many divers that would spring for a private DM but dont as they are under the mistaken idea that the leading DM is their private DM.

Craig
 
How much diving do you have to do to go to 60-70 feet? For me, from the begining it was the first 40 feet getting my ears straight and in the 'groove'. 40 to 70 didn't seem that different. Other than getting to surface in a hurry, (which means bad stuff is happening anyway) what is the difference but numbers on a console?

Your certification agency wouldn't agree with your logic, and the issue isn't so much 60-70 feet its 80-130, which increases the risks of DCS, runaway ascents, going into deco, OOA emergencies, narcosis... etc...

When you did the Devil's Throat were you AOW? Should any dive op take a diver on that dive that isn't AOW? Deep diver qualification is a requirement of AOW, a dive shop with a AOW diver at least knows the diver has passed those requirements has had training for the depth. If they take OW divers there, even after judging them in the water for a few days, they still are just guessing that the diver can handle it. A guess versus an official qualification is pretty risky and would violates their PADI shop guidelines doesn't it?

Perhaps it might be time that the Cozumel Dive Assosc. come out with a flyer that needs to be signed by all divers explaining clearly what the role of the DM is.

If divers were aware what the actual role of the DM was it might go a long way in making divers more responsible for their diving and the situations they allow themselves to be placed in, in Cozumel specifically. As an off shoot it would likely improve revenue to the dive ops as I am sure there are many divers that would spring for a private DM but dont as they are under the mistaken idea that the leading DM is their private DM.

Craig

It sounds like some sort of 'ruling' on the matter will be forthcoming, if its true the DM and captain are facing the Harbor Master now and he is going to be ruling on the matter. The outcome of what he does such as fines or suspensions will be heard in the Cozumel dive op community and perhaps define the DM role more clearly.
 
Not sure what your point is.. I made no mention of how Christi makes an evaluation.

Randy, no one is saying that the number of dives is an absolute measure of diving abilities and even a diver with 500 dives on Santa Rosa wall could still be a lousy diver as their are so many components that go into diving, these include skills, attitude and maturity.

However as a surrogate marker for a dive op bieng comfortable about taking out a diver who arrives on their door steps I do think it is reasonable for Christi to expect that less than 15 dives needs a DM.

Frankly a 10 dive diver has just not had enough experience to be a safe competent diver and yes it is possible to have 450 dives and still not be a good diver but in reality if after 450 dives you are still not a good diver it is most likely an attitude issue and it unlikely that a DM is going to change that.

Every diver is different but when one arrives on her door step Christi has to make an evaluation as to their skills and the reality is that as a surrogate marker - aside from specific exceptions - dive number will correlate to some degree with ability.

Craig
 
You can have an AOW card with as few as eight or nine dives. Does that mean that you can handle a non-benign Cozumel dive where you may have multiple new factors causing stress?

What I am saying that a properly trained AOW diver who has had the skill sets drilled and mastered should be able to know what to do if the crap hits the fan. Every new dive can present factors that raise the stress level, whether it be cold water diving in a thick wetsuit and getting properly weighted or diving in low viz enviornments or drift diving for the first time. All of these can cause stress. A properly trained diver should know how to evaluate the factors and decide whether to continue to dive or thumb the dive based on his comfort level and experience. We all will stretch our comfort level at times to do dives we have not done before or we all would still be diving in the pool. Every diver has to decide for himself to continue or thumb the dive and his dive buddy BETTER come with him, no questions asked! That is NOT an option!
 
Not sure what your point is.. I made no mention of how Christi makes an evaluation.

Randy my original post was in reply to Christi saying that her dive op requires that divers with less than 15 dives make use of a DM if they are diving with her. Perhaps go back and read the thread so you can see what you were disagreeing with me about :).
 
So you would say it is all about the possibility of depth? In 'not advanced' areas there is always a hard bottom at 130 feet or so? Aren't you just as screwed at 250 feet as 300 or 500? My point being does 1500 feet matter?

Most of these divers seem to relax and then things are fine. Is it just me or is most of the challenge in one's own head?

Seriously though for you current equals advanced? In the Caymans can you not pay attention and go deep enough to kill yourself? It just seems, with the exception of the rare downwellings, most of all the 'issues' that seem to make some think Cozumel is advanced diving is mostly about divers given the opportunity to do stuff they have been trained not to do and thereby put themselves in danger.
Yes, it's mainly all in one's own head. Everyone responds differently to stressors. Everyone has a different panic threshold. Everyone has a different level of situational awareness. That said, the physical can also impact one's diving, in particular being out of shape can cause one to get out of breath after mild exertion (such as kicking against current to reach the wall), and narcosis can cause one to be "stupider" than usual. When I hit the downcurrent after 150 dives, I didn't panic, but I also didn't do the right think which would have been to move closer to or away from the wall (by some accounts) or move laterally (by other accounts). In fact, it didn't even dawn on me to try to inflate my BC. Of course we were at 90', which may have explained my sluggigh throught process, or maybe it was just from all the tequila the night before. All I could think about was kicking hard to keep from descending. Fortunately it ended before I got out of breath, but the reason why my buddy freaked is because she was getting out of breath and had never before sucked down her air so fast. I got a little unnerved when I was still at 80' and only at 500 psi, but experience told me I'd be OK and could continue my slow ascent. She still had around 1,000 left, but normally had great air consumption and would routinely finish a dive with half a tank left, so to her she felt like she was running out of air. That's the mind part.

Your job implies that you've been trained to deal with dire situations and likely have experienced incidents that have stretched your comfort zone a bit. For many, however, getting through open water training was hard enough without currents and depth. Now they're in Cozumel for their first post-cert dives and suddenly they're in a 3 knot current that they can't kick against, they can't see the bottom, breathing becomes more rapid, trouble getting one's buoyancy, breathing becomes more rapid, help I'm sinking, get me out of here! And off they go to the surface on their own, even though they've been trained not to leave their buddy and to make a slow controlled ascent. As for going too deep, it's easy to ignore one's training when "it's just another 10 feet and it looks so close" - chasing down a ray or shark to take a photo is a popular excuse, and of course, narcosis doesn't help any.

Grand Cayman (can't speak to the sister islands) has a deep north wall which usually has a light 0.5-1 knot current (been to 150' on it and I couldn't see any bottom from there), but the west side, where the cruise ships dock in Georgetown, has sites like Devil's Grotto which are about 30' max depth and no current. It also has some shore dives that are excellent for beginners, such as the Turtle Farm (max depth around 40' unless you swim way out to the wall) and Cobalt Coast (where the first "wall", really a slope, bottoms out around 70' and it's a long, long swim to the "deep wall" that would preclude beginners from getting out there). Bonaire is another excellent beginner spot, since the currents again are very light and a lot of the walls bottom out in the 100-140' range so there's less danger of accidentally going too deep. In both spots, shore diving is easy to do and very worthwhile and once beginners get their "feet wet" from boat diving, shore diving is a great way of developing independence from the DM as well as collateral skills like navigation and pre-dive planning (and you're forced to set up your own gear).

Cozumel, which is primarily boat diving, doesn't foster independence. In fact, it fosters the opposite. New divers have their gear set up for them and are told to stay with the group/DM at all times. Diving with a DM is not only suggested, it's actually mandated under Marine Park rules. No wonder newbies might freak out when they're suddenly alone.
 
Nobody should ever, IMO, do a dive where they expect the DM to do anything but indicate the desired course and point out cryptic critters. If you need the DM for anything more, you shouldn't be doing the dive except as a training exercise.

I agree with this 100%, and not just for Cozumel.
 
I ask my students, can you walk into a dive shop among a group of strangers and say I am a brand new diver and would like to go on the easiest beginner dive you have? You have to be responsible for yourself at the cost of your ego and peer pressure, if you can't do that don't dive. Way to many people jump on a boat and say take me diving and rely on a DM for there every need, then they don't pay attention during the dive briefing. Then point the finger at the DM for their problems ..
 

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