In Coz: You, Your Buddy, Your Group and Your DM. Who should do what?

[flots am]

Goooood. Would you agree that is uncommon for cruise ship divers, especially newbies...??

Not really.

My buddy and I dive from cruise ships pretty much every year.

The only generalization you can make about cruise ship divers is that they arrived on a ship.

flots.

 

[peeweediver]

This has been an interesting thread to read. I am taking away from this discussions new things to talk to my students about as well as people who come on our trips. When the shop I teach with sponsors trips, I go as a tourist, not as an instructor. However, everyone on that trip looks to the shop owner or me first, rather than the DM. I should be getting paid, I just realized....wait, I don't get paid for teaching either, just a serious hobby. Anyway, discussions about who does what are part of my class discussions, but this thread has emphaiszed that you can't talk about this too much. I do explain to students to never be rushed or pushed by a DM because they don't die for you. Talking about each person's responsibility as discussed in this thread will become more of my student chats...thanks.
We do, as a species (divers, that is) look out for each other, especially those we see struggling. the hard part is knowing when to chat with someone on your boat that you can see is nervous when you don't know them. I do and have occassionally been told to mind my own business (usually by the spouse/buddy). But, I'll keep doing it. Whether one is advanced, thinks they are advanced, or wishes they were advanced or whether a dive site is or is not advanced by anyone's estimations only matters if people think about their skill level realistically and have the courage to call a dive. Unforunately, I tell my students that a dive operastion can't be expected to assess their comfort level or their ability to respond to certaiin situations. My take-away from this thread is to emphasize even more that this is your experience, your life, and your rational thought process that has to decide the day.
Thanks for letting me read your posts.

Rob

 

[Randy43068]

Uhm no.

Randy my original post was in reply to Christi saying that her dive op requires that divers with less than 15 dives make use of a DM if they are diving with her. Perhaps go back and read the thread so you can see what you were disagreeing with me about .

 

[Brules]

First, with experience elsewhere are you saying conditions in other warm water location PREVENT the new diver from going below 100 feet?

Second, I think saying get hurt is an over generalization. How many die or disappear really? For bent, I don't think THAT many get bent in comparison to the numbers diving there. I haven't read anything to say numbers are higher in Cozumel than any other dive destination. In fact I have read that Cozumel is perhaps better prepared for accidents than some other areas of the world.

Third, what would be the critera for turning away a diver? I agree there probably should be a line, but where would you draw it? Especially since you are only a dinner and a website away from your own op.

Yes, a lot of other warm water locales don't have the reefs right up on a 1500' cliff......where you can enter a swim through on the sand side at 70-80', yet you come out the swim through on the wall side at 90-100 and it is straight down. At 100' you are in the begining of the NARC zone. Next time you are down there watch your fellow divers when on the wall, you will always have newb divers who are so engrossed in the dive/scenery/wall/coral they blithely swim along never even looking at the depth/air.....as they slowly descend a little deeper and a little more - then the DM bangs his tank and motions for them to come up from 110-120-130 etc.

Toss in a ripping current, rare downwelling, DM turning into a swim through that the stragglers dont see and it can quickly go bad.

My whole point is that yes, Cozumel has many many advanced sites that are regularly dove daily by hundreds and hundreds of brand new divers without much concern.

PADI and other agencies have hard rules/reccomendations as to diver certifications and depths for VERY good reasons....

 

[Sideways]

Lot's of good points, views, and observations in this thread. I don't know, from my 30 dives in Coz, if I would classify it as strictly advanced. Does it have advanced dives and potentials? Sure. Drift diving does have a unique set of issues and concerns. One of the biggest hazards for me in Coz is the sheer amount of boats buzzing over head while surfacing. Even though Coz can be advanced, I've had much harder dives in other locations. I think all divers PERIOD should have a SMB, whistle, and mirror at the minimum.

Oh... and as far as old, or folks not in shape like Ken and Barbie being stereotyped... I don't suscribe to it. I'm 48, a lil overweight and do just fine

 

[cvchief]

Yes, a lot of other warm water locales don't have the reefs right up on a 1500' cliff......where you can enter a swim through on the sand side at 70-80', yet you come out the swim through on the wall side at 90-100 and it is straight down. At 100' you are in the begining of the NARC zone. Next time you are down there watch your fellow divers when on the wall, you will always have newb divers who are so engrossed in the dive/scenery/wall/coral they blithely swim along never even looking at the depth/air.....as they slowly descend a little deeper and a little more - then the DM bangs his tank and motions for them to come up from 110-120-130 etc.

Toss in a ripping current, rare downwelling, DM turning into a swim through that the stragglers dont see and it can quickly go bad.

My whole point is that yes, Cozumel has many many advanced sites that are regularly dove daily by hundreds and hundreds of brand new divers without much concern.

PADI and other agencies have hard rules/reccomendations as to diver certifications and depths for VERY good reasons....

Again to my point though, 1500 feet doesn't matter a hill of beans after what 250 or 300 feet? Are you saying you can't drift below 110-130 in these other locations? Seriously, I am asking. I mean if a wall drops to 400 feet instead of 1500 is it safer?

 

[Sorrows]

If divers were aware what the actual role of the DM was it might go a long way in making divers more responsible for their diving and the situations they allow themselves to be placed in, in Cozumel specifically.

Look, I may be in a minority here with all you rugged individualists, but protecting the safety and well-being of those he is leading and getting them back to the boat safely is the DM's #1 job. Sure, sometimes you need the expert fish-spotter more than you need the lifesaver, and it's great when the DM has a sense of humor, but let's not kid ourselves which is the most important ability in a DM. They are, after all, certified in rescue for a reason.

Last year in Palau, I got a leak in my air hose. No biggie, it wasn't leaking that fast, easy conditions, and my son and husband were with me. But the DM hovered around me like I was a newly-hatched chick. Personally, I found that reassuring rather than annoying. I was a potential catastrophe and he dealt with it. Awesome.

I like what (Chief?) said:

As for the DM, I would say I think divers should be *prepared* to have a DM who is useless for their safety, but they should EXPECT a DM who puts their safety and care at the top of the list. I don't think a tour guide only DM is acceptable.

 

[Sideways]

Look, I may be in a minority here with all you rugged individualists, but protecting the safety and well-being of those he is leading and getting them back to the boat safely is the DM's #1 job. Sure, sometimes you need the expert fish-spotter more than you need the lifesaver, and it's great when the DM has a sense of humor, but let's not kid ourselves which is the most important ability in a DM. They are, after all, certified in rescue for a reason.

Last year in Palau, I got a leak in my air hose. No biggie, it wasn't leaking that fast, easy conditions, and my son and husband were with me. But the DM hovered around me like I was a newly-hatched chick. Personally, I found that reassuring rather than annoying. I was a potential catastrophe and he dealt with it. Awesome.

I like what (Chief?) said:

As for the DM, I would say I think divers should be *prepared* to have a DM who is useless for their safety, but they should EXPECT a DM who puts their safety and care at the top of the list. I don't think a tour guide only DM is acceptable.

I agree... I actually posted this in the "Missing" thread...

I always Evaluate the level of ability and "Give a crap" that our DM has on each outing. That aids to determine my awareness level, kinda sad, but it's honest.

 

[Sorrows]

First, with experience elsewhere are you saying conditions in other warm water location PREVENT the new diver from going below 100 feet?

Absolutely! Take Bonaire, for example; you get in, sink to where you are a bit above the reef and start finning out, slowly getting deeper and always seeing the bottom. So you have more of a sense of how deep you are, I think, than you do on a wall--particularly if the viz is good. If there's still light and you can still see a fair bit around you, this could give you a false reading of how deep you are. (okay, maybe not you, but definitely me!)

Also most places I've been to in the Caribbean (Bonaire, Roatan, Cayman) require a check-out dive; not so in Cozumel, of course. The idea that new divers are going to these depths without any sort of advanced training is crazy, IMHO. Yes, I understand that there are hundreds, thousands of people who do so and survive to tell the tale. What does that prove? How many people have gotten behind the wheel impaired by alcohol and gotten to their destination without incident? It's called luck. But some time, some where, somebody's luck is going to run out.

 

[peeweediver]

Interesting. Twice in Bonaire and the check-out dive was, "try your weights by our pier then have fun". In Roatan, DM led us for the whole check-out dive to make sure we understood the house reef and shore diving topography. So, check-out is in the eye of the beholder. Best DM-guide experience...Bonaire, a couple in their 70s jumps off the back of the boat. I'm at 50-60/ft, the wife comes past me pretty fast heading down trying to locate her inflator hose. I turn and head down to catch her at 90ft, get her straightened away and back up to 60 with hubby. I looked up to see the DM at 50 ft watching the end of the saga. Back on the boat, I asked the DM, did you see her sinking and what had you planned to do? He replied" It's 110-120 to the sand, I was going to get her when she hit bottom if she hadn't figured it out". Oh well.

Rob