nfarrar
Contributor
Spot on about the Hogs. You are a wise man.
Is Scubapro what it used to be?
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Spot on about the Hogs. You are a wise man.
mahjong
Contributor
A number of these posts couple product and marketing in drawing conclusions. When marketing creeps up and takes pains to couple itself with the product such that they are inseperable, I run for the hills. This is scuba gear, folks. Life support stuff. All companies need to market. Fact of modern capitalist life. But when marketing becomes part of the rationale for purchase, I'm gone. I have no experience with HOG regulators. But reading their website blurb on why it makes practical sense to buy their stuff exceeds my marketing threshhold. I do know who to ask for a wise and no-nonsense assessment about what's under the hood, though. And just out of curiousity I will do so tomorrow when I take my tanks in for reloading.
It's just out of curiosity, though, for I see no need to buy a new regulator. I suspect that most people who buy new are themselves relatively new to diving.
---------- Post added April 23rd, 2012 at 09:17 PM ----------
I think this comment is problematic. Where do you go for servicing that you feel you're getting fleeced? There is no substitute for a first-rate technician. Yes, they are not in abundance. And they DEFINITELY are NOT recent graduates of the "factory" class. If you can find a truly first-rate technician (not a website with a fixed location that knows how to service regs) then that technician cannot charge you enough ever to justify the complaint of "too much."
If you have pimple-faced "factory" class certificate recipients who in college majored in marketing then perhaps I can comprehend your defense of what almost smacks of a "disposable regulator" model. Use it for two years, dump it, and buy a new one. Statistically speaking, you will very likely live through it. But will you be fun to talk to at apres dive parties? That's the real question
.
It's just out of curiosity, though, for I see no need to buy a new regulator. I suspect that most people who buy new are themselves relatively new to diving.
---------- Post added April 23rd, 2012 at 09:17 PM ----------
I think this comment is problematic. Where do you go for servicing that you feel you're getting fleeced? There is no substitute for a first-rate technician. Yes, they are not in abundance. And they DEFINITELY are NOT recent graduates of the "factory" class. If you can find a truly first-rate technician (not a website with a fixed location that knows how to service regs) then that technician cannot charge you enough ever to justify the complaint of "too much."
If you have pimple-faced "factory" class certificate recipients who in college majored in marketing then perhaps I can comprehend your defense of what almost smacks of a "disposable regulator" model. Use it for two years, dump it, and buy a new one. Statistically speaking, you will very likely live through it. But will you be fun to talk to at apres dive parties? That's the real question
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It maybe problematic to you, to me the problem was the inspection, maintenance and repair of one the order of a hundred regulators each year. In my experience, the best way to accomplish this is with a university employed, dedicated regulator technician and when the load overwhelmed him ... send the overflow to Professional Scuba Repair. In no case would I use an LDS where the "tech" is also the tank monkey, the salesman, the floorsweeper and maybe the instructor and even owner (pimples optional).A number of these posts couple product and marketing in drawing conclusions. When marketing creeps up and takes pains to couple itself with the product such that they are inseperable, I run for the hills. This is scuba gear, folks. Life support stuff. All companies need to market. Fact of modern capitalist life. But when marketing becomes part of the rationale for purchase, I'm gone. I have no experience with HOG regulators. But reading their website blurb on why it makes practical sense to buy their stuff exceeds my marketing threshhold. I do know who to ask for a wise and no-nonsense assessment about what's under the hood, though. And just out of curiousity I will do so tomorrow when I take my tanks in for reloading.
It's just out of curiosity, though, for I see no need to buy a new regulator. I suspect that most people who buy new are themselves relatively new to diving.
---------- Post added April 23rd, 2012 at 09:17 PM ----------
I think this comment is problematic. Where do you go for servicing that you feel you're getting fleeced? There is no substitute for a first-rate technician. Yes, they are not in abundance. And they DEFINITELY are NOT recent graduates of the "factory" class. If you can find a truly first-rate technician (not a website with a fixed location that knows how to service regs) then that technician cannot charge you enough ever to justify the complaint of "too much."
If you have pimple-faced "factory" class certificate recipients who in college majored in marketing then perhaps I can comprehend your defense of what almost smacks of a "disposable regulator" model. Use it for two years, dump it, and buy a new one. Statistically speaking, you will very likely live through it. But will you be fun to talk to at apres dive parties? That's the real question
Actually servicing a regulator, even if it is, "life support," is slightly easier than fixing a running toilet, what you really need is a modicum of mechanical ability, a handful of tools, strong motivation (fixing one's own usually supplies that in spades) and a tiny bit of training. If you really thing that it takes more ... you've fallen for the "life support" marketing pitch, which only exists to appeal to and excite your amygdala rather than your fore-brain.
Ozwald
Contributor
I am probably one of the minority on the HOG regs. Although they are of a decent quality and very inexpensive as far as regs go if you can put say an MK17/25 and a A700/G250V and say that there is no noticable difference in the feel and quality......well that's just crazy.
And yes, I know that there is a huge discrepancy in price but IMHO there is a huge difference in quality as well. I had the HOGs....sold em. It's a personal thing. I am of the opinion that everyone wants to believe that they are up there with the Atomic's and the Scubapro stuff and that's okay but are they really.....I am not so sure. Bottom line is if you are happy than that's cool.
My wife has a bunch of "Coach" bags. She has a a few that are knock offs and she has a few that are real. They both do the same thing just as good as each other. In fact they look identical when you first look at them. It's when you look real close that you notice the difference.
And yes, I know that there is a huge discrepancy in price but IMHO there is a huge difference in quality as well. I had the HOGs....sold em. It's a personal thing. I am of the opinion that everyone wants to believe that they are up there with the Atomic's and the Scubapro stuff and that's okay but are they really.....I am not so sure. Bottom line is if you are happy than that's cool.
My wife has a bunch of "Coach" bags. She has a a few that are knock offs and she has a few that are real. They both do the same thing just as good as each other. In fact they look identical when you first look at them. It's when you look real close that you notice the difference.
mahjong
Contributor
"Actually servicing a regulator, even if it is, "life support," is slightly easier than fixing a running toilet, what you really need is a modicum of mechanical ability, a handful of tools, strong motivation (fixing one's own usually supplies that in spades) and a tiny bit of training. If you really thing that it takes more ... you've fallen for the "life support" marketing pitch, which only exists to appeal to and excite your amygdala rather than your fore-brain."
You left out two things: A book and experience-based comprehension of the theory behind different regulator designs and deep first-hand experience with the historical evolution of each regulator model made by each company--or at least as many of the major ones as is possible, the more the better. Almost anyone with some training can replace pieces and parts using a service kit. But only someone who really understands the theory and who has historically deep experience with a given model can anticipate problems and repair/rebuild in a way that corrects in advance of problems, and can TUNE a regulator to work as best as it possibly can. Indeed, some service kits coming from manufacturers have problems--sometimes only "some" of the service kits have problems, the ones in one batch from Cambodia instead of Thailand, say. A shim might be needed here, a filing down of an edge or surface there--all done in advance of the problem occuring. There are these technicians out there, and in fact the manufacturers rely on them for feedback, and I know of instances where they even consult with them in making design improvements. Typically, such technicians like to talk with you about your reg and the work done--this is because they have an artisan's passion for what they do. I will NEVER drop off a reg at a counter with a clerk and leave the shop without chatting with the technician who will service it. I called Scubapro and told them my requirements of a technician and they recommended to me the technician I should go to in my area: "That's the guy I'd want servicing my regs," is exactly what the Scubapro person told me (and there are at least three shops closer to me with authorized Scubapro technicians). And the guy they led me to is also the guy they consult with about many things regarding their regulators. I have been in the back of the shop at the work bench with my technician when he was on the phone talking with Scubapro about regulator design issues.
You will never find a technician with qualifications/experience the likes of which I described above also responsible for sweepeing floors, selling snorkels and fins, and planning/organizing trips to Cozumel. He may do some teaching in the shop that s/he might own, and s/he may go on an occasional dive trip with the shop--and this is not a bad thing. It not only keeps him/her in the water, but it also allows him/her to establish a personal relationship with many customers and it breaks the monotony of servicing hundreds of regs/year, something that is not only a business requirement but also necessary to stay on top of his/her craft--and it is, again, a craft. Some balance is a good thing.
You left out two things: A book and experience-based comprehension of the theory behind different regulator designs and deep first-hand experience with the historical evolution of each regulator model made by each company--or at least as many of the major ones as is possible, the more the better. Almost anyone with some training can replace pieces and parts using a service kit. But only someone who really understands the theory and who has historically deep experience with a given model can anticipate problems and repair/rebuild in a way that corrects in advance of problems, and can TUNE a regulator to work as best as it possibly can. Indeed, some service kits coming from manufacturers have problems--sometimes only "some" of the service kits have problems, the ones in one batch from Cambodia instead of Thailand, say. A shim might be needed here, a filing down of an edge or surface there--all done in advance of the problem occuring. There are these technicians out there, and in fact the manufacturers rely on them for feedback, and I know of instances where they even consult with them in making design improvements. Typically, such technicians like to talk with you about your reg and the work done--this is because they have an artisan's passion for what they do. I will NEVER drop off a reg at a counter with a clerk and leave the shop without chatting with the technician who will service it. I called Scubapro and told them my requirements of a technician and they recommended to me the technician I should go to in my area: "That's the guy I'd want servicing my regs," is exactly what the Scubapro person told me (and there are at least three shops closer to me with authorized Scubapro technicians). And the guy they led me to is also the guy they consult with about many things regarding their regulators. I have been in the back of the shop at the work bench with my technician when he was on the phone talking with Scubapro about regulator design issues.
You will never find a technician with qualifications/experience the likes of which I described above also responsible for sweepeing floors, selling snorkels and fins, and planning/organizing trips to Cozumel. He may do some teaching in the shop that s/he might own, and s/he may go on an occasional dive trip with the shop--and this is not a bad thing. It not only keeps him/her in the water, but it also allows him/her to establish a personal relationship with many customers and it breaks the monotony of servicing hundreds of regs/year, something that is not only a business requirement but also necessary to stay on top of his/her craft--and it is, again, a craft. Some balance is a good thing.
Eric Sedletzky
Contributor
In some ways I think Scubapro is a sinking ship.
Like I said, their products are decent but way over priced and that is the hype end of it.
Just because something is much more expensive that another product doesn't mean the quality equals the increase in price.
Scubapro has insisted on only selling their regs through an "authorized dealer" with stringent price guidelines. They support this model by advertising hype. When you pay full price for a SP reg you are paying 110% retail, when you get a 10% discount you are paying 100% retail.
Some dealers have adopted the 10% discount as their regular everyday price.
However, there is a whole black (or grey) market of SP regs. Leisure pro and other outlets used to sell SP at way below the allowed 10% discount and some say that SP was actually letting unsold regs out the back door to these discounters and then pretending that they had no control over it, that the products were being brought in from Europe. I say Bull sh_t!
If that was the case there's no way regs from Europe could beat prices on US soil. Things are more expensive in Europe not less and then there's duty to pay.
Nobody will probably ever know the real truth but I have my beliefs.
So as the overpriced LDS sinks so will SP since they insist on attaching themselves to certain stores that they can move in on.
Companies like hog are going to win regardless if you think their regs are not as good. At half the price they *might* be 1 or 2% less of a reg to the extremely finicky diver who can tell the difference, not 50% less of a reg.
Some may like them better.
I don't like strong arm tactics, but I do like SP regs (the old ones) and I have found a way to get parts so I can do my own work.
BTW, anybody with any mechanical ability at all can learn to work on regs. There is a learning curve for sure and the reg being worked on needs to be researched thoroughly. But I also think the do it yourselfer working on their own stuff has a tendancy to be way more anal about every aspect of the service or rebuild. There are techs out there that I wouldn't let fill my tire let alone work on my regs.
The really good ones are far and few between and who says they aren't overloaded, stressed, and underpayed?
One last thing. As more and more instructors become independent there will be a bigger market for alternative gear companies.
Also dive shops that are sick of being bullied will have a chance to sell gear that they have flexibility with.
The power SP holds (or used to hold) will some day be gone.
Like I said, their products are decent but way over priced and that is the hype end of it.
Just because something is much more expensive that another product doesn't mean the quality equals the increase in price.
Scubapro has insisted on only selling their regs through an "authorized dealer" with stringent price guidelines. They support this model by advertising hype. When you pay full price for a SP reg you are paying 110% retail, when you get a 10% discount you are paying 100% retail.
Some dealers have adopted the 10% discount as their regular everyday price.
However, there is a whole black (or grey) market of SP regs. Leisure pro and other outlets used to sell SP at way below the allowed 10% discount and some say that SP was actually letting unsold regs out the back door to these discounters and then pretending that they had no control over it, that the products were being brought in from Europe. I say Bull sh_t!
If that was the case there's no way regs from Europe could beat prices on US soil. Things are more expensive in Europe not less and then there's duty to pay.
Nobody will probably ever know the real truth but I have my beliefs.
So as the overpriced LDS sinks so will SP since they insist on attaching themselves to certain stores that they can move in on.
Companies like hog are going to win regardless if you think their regs are not as good. At half the price they *might* be 1 or 2% less of a reg to the extremely finicky diver who can tell the difference, not 50% less of a reg.
Some may like them better.
I don't like strong arm tactics, but I do like SP regs (the old ones) and I have found a way to get parts so I can do my own work.
BTW, anybody with any mechanical ability at all can learn to work on regs. There is a learning curve for sure and the reg being worked on needs to be researched thoroughly. But I also think the do it yourselfer working on their own stuff has a tendancy to be way more anal about every aspect of the service or rebuild. There are techs out there that I wouldn't let fill my tire let alone work on my regs.
The really good ones are far and few between and who says they aren't overloaded, stressed, and underpayed?
One last thing. As more and more instructors become independent there will be a bigger market for alternative gear companies.
Also dive shops that are sick of being bullied will have a chance to sell gear that they have flexibility with.
The power SP holds (or used to hold) will some day be gone.
JamesK
Contributor
I have owned my Mk20/G250 and Mk25/G250 for 10 years now and never had a problem with them. I love them. Phenomenal setups IMO. I have no problem recommending ScubaPro now a days either. They still make excellent gear. However, with brands like Dive Rite and HOG on the scene (I own a handful of DR, and am replacing my Buechat regswith HOG), I do not see a reason for me to spend that kind of money anymore.
All in all, I don't know of many regs that are just plain crap for recreational diving. I have certain things I look for in a reg, and many brands/models do not offer that, but that does not make them crap.
All in all, I don't know of many regs that are just plain crap for recreational diving. I have certain things I look for in a reg, and many brands/models do not offer that, but that does not make them crap.
mahjong
Contributor
You may be right about the sinking ship and who, in the LR, wins or loses. I honestly don't know and don't care. It is beside the point. It has to do with the nature of the larger business environment, which I believe does NOT serve the scuba market very well, esp the regulator market. You can criticize SP's response (tactics or whatever you call them) to this business environment. I will not argue, because it is not what is at issue to me. My concern is the product and I do not buy new regulators.
Regs made in response to and specifically to succeed in today's cutthroat business environement are of no interest to me. This is why I dive mainly MK10s and R109s.
Incidentally, what is the basis of the accusation of "advertising hype"? SP is not exactly like Coke or Pepsi with advertising, are they? They don't advertise on TV or before movies at local cineplexes, do they? They advertise in Scuba magazines, like many other companies. And they produce glossy catalogs. Catalogs are a good example of my point: The older Scubapro catalogs are genuinely informative and educational. They describe every detail about a product, including very technical details. They had complete diagrams of the internal workings of their regs in the catalogs. This changed at some point when marketing became more about image than information--probably some time in the 1990s. This change also roughly marks the cutoff of products for me. I prefer the products made prior to the marketing turn from info to image. This doesn't mean the stuff that came after the turn is all bad. But it does mean that there are considerations going on in product redesigns that involve more than just performance issues. These other nonperformance issues complicate things more than is necessary. And, yes, they also tend to be the basis of jacking up prices.
Regs made in response to and specifically to succeed in today's cutthroat business environement are of no interest to me. This is why I dive mainly MK10s and R109s.
Incidentally, what is the basis of the accusation of "advertising hype"? SP is not exactly like Coke or Pepsi with advertising, are they? They don't advertise on TV or before movies at local cineplexes, do they? They advertise in Scuba magazines, like many other companies. And they produce glossy catalogs. Catalogs are a good example of my point: The older Scubapro catalogs are genuinely informative and educational. They describe every detail about a product, including very technical details. They had complete diagrams of the internal workings of their regs in the catalogs. This changed at some point when marketing became more about image than information--probably some time in the 1990s. This change also roughly marks the cutoff of products for me. I prefer the products made prior to the marketing turn from info to image. This doesn't mean the stuff that came after the turn is all bad. But it does mean that there are considerations going on in product redesigns that involve more than just performance issues. These other nonperformance issues complicate things more than is necessary. And, yes, they also tend to be the basis of jacking up prices.
Hatul
Contributor
silver02ca
Registered
I have used/serviced many makes/models of regulators over the years and still prefer scubapro all the time.
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