Jacket BC or Wing BC

[MauiScubaSteve]

Here we go again.

...

most of the bp/wing wearers actually spend time trying to get good trim and minimalized weighting, and removed all the sloppy hanging stuff that frequents the stab jacket diver ( like the 6 foot long high pressure hose to console trailling in the sand on the bottom behind the clueless). So instead of just significantly faster, sometimes a bp/wing diver will be almost exponentially faster than a stab jacket diver....the reverse scenario is so infrequent, common sense would indicate the bp/wing direction has something good going for it.

As I see it, a lot of BP/W divers were such incompetent divers they needed a crutch to force them into a decent diving posture. There are likely still exponentially MORE great divers diving in Vest BC's than there are great divers diving in BP/W's.

Sure, put some bad vest divers in free dive fins and then say "see I'm faster!" The only study of gear drag I have ever heard of was military, involving tow sleds, and body positioning made significant difference, while the difference between BC's was insignificant.

The human body with tank and hoses is a big drag. The difference between the various BC's is very, very minimal compared to the overall drag of someone diving. I contend that a well designed BC of any variety, with regards to streamlining, does not make a significant difference in the drag of the total package, so saying something like....

So instead of just significantly faster, sometimes a bp/wing diver will be almost exponentially faster than a stab jacket diver

.... is such a load of guano that it makes someone who does have great diving experience sound like some Catskill's inbred country bumpkin.

When a very, very opinionated person loudly, continually and forcefully states their opinion, over and over, without ever indicating it is just their opinion, not only may beginners and lurkers mistakenly think that opinion might be fact, but often it seems the opinionated person actually begins to believe that they are speaking fact.

Until someone does an apples to apples comparison I will continue to "whack the hornet's nest" with regards to the streamlining, red hearing, pile of guano, mythical BP/W opinions!

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

There are valid reasons for some new divers to consider BP/W's as possible BC's for purchase. Streamlining is not a valid reason, IMHO, and I will "wreck the train" if necessary, every time I see such ignorant propaganda!

 

[LakeCountyDiver]

There are valid reasons for some new divers to consider BP/W's as possible BC's for purchase. Streamlining is not a valid reason, IMHO, and I will "wreck the train" if necessary, every time I see such ignorant propaganda!

We know you will because you will have nothing else better to do. I don't even know where you find time to dive with all your "Train Wrecking"...

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

I prefer that interested viewers tuning into SB have relevant, realistic and educational input, not cyber diving, arm chair, fantasy that probably is as connected to friends sales of certain gear as the articles and advertisers in Sport Diver are connected.

 

[Teamcasa]

.....and the typical bp/wing diver has one other advantage over the hundreds of stab jacket wearers to each bp/wing wearer....most of the bp/wing wearers actually spend time trying to get good trim and minimalized weighting, and removed all the sloppy hanging stuff that frequents the stab jacket diver ( like the 6 foot long high pressure hose to console trailling in the sand on the bottom behind the clueless).

Sorry Dan, I just don't buy this. Sure, there are a larger percentage on new, less experienced divers that use a jacket BC. So what? Not all new divers are clueless or have no interest in becoming better divers. More than likely, there are more divers that care about their trim and dangling bits than there are BP/W divers. I would agree that technical, cave and wreck divers care a great deal about trim and they do use BP/W's. But let's not make the assumption that most jacket BC users are console dragging, reef bouncing newbies. Or that slapping on a BP/W will instantly transform them into a super-trimmed out God of the sea.

I've said this before: Gear selection is not a substitute for quality training and experience.

So instead of just significantly faster, sometimes a bp/wing diver will be almost exponentially faster than a stab jacket diver....the reverse scenario is so infrequent, common sense would indicate the bp/wing direction has something good going for it.

Speed while diving? I've frequently seen this argument on the boards but when actually diving, I just don't speed being a factor. (Unless being chased by something that can eat you.. )

 

[danvolker]

Sorry Dan, I just don't buy this. Sure, there are a larger percentage on new, less experienced divers that use a jacket BC. So what? Not all new divers are clueless or have no interest in becoming better divers. More than likely, there are more divers that care about their trim and dangling bits than there are BP/W divers. I would agree that technical, cave and wreck divers care a great deal about trim and they do use BP/W's. But let's not make the assumption that most jacket BC users are console dragging, reef bouncing newbies. Or that slapping on a BP/W will instantly transform them into a super-trimmed out God of the sea.

I've said this before: Gear selection is not a substitute for quality training and experience.

Speed while diving? I've frequently seen this argument on the boards but when actually diving, I just don't speed being a factor. (Unless being chased by something that can eat you.. )

My point above about the bp/wing subgroup of divers, is more about mindset...the much smaller group of bp/wing divers, as a group, have typically gone this route becuase they wanted to be more streamlined and to have a system that allows easier weight shifting and customization to achieve optimal trim and perfect fit.....and remember, the small/medium and large sizing of vest bcs is NOT custom fitting--while bp/wings systems are.

As to speed..this does not just mean you can go faster, it also means that you can go the same speed you had been doing before, but with much less effort....this meaning a good reduction in SAC rate. If you usually dive with 3 other people, and the group pace kept your heart rate normally around 100 beats per minute with your bc and fin system/setup.....what I am suggesting is that with optimal bp/wing set up, and optimal fins, that same pace with your buddies could mean your heart rate could drop to 75 beats per minute--which would lower your breathing rate...which could mean you could change to a 80 cu ft tank, instead of a 104 ---- After this change, the lower drag of the 80 could provide an even lower heart rate--less exertion, and make the sac rate better still. Anyway, this is where I am going with this concept. I am well aware that most divers do not try to swim upcurrent, or even dive in high current areas. Because of the area I live in, and the kind of diving I do, I will frequently long distances up-current against the Palm Beach drift current, or sideways to it, and speed and efficiency is critical fior this....some of the time upcurrent means just bellying to the bottom and using your hands a little in the sand...but in other areas it means actually swimming against the current, but low to the bottom.

We also have a cool tidal dive, in the channel of the Palm Beach Inlet....while you can try to time this for a free ride in, and a free ride out, often there are "eddy effects" which can have the current going opposite to the way you want to go--have to go, so you really better be able to hit 2mph or better for a stretch, when you need to...It is a pretty cool dive, for a shore dive... even on a day with lousy conditions...see video...YouTube - Best adventure shore dive in Florida....

 

[danvolker]

As I see it, a lot of BP/W divers were such incompetent divers they needed a crutch to force them into a decent diving posture. There are likely still exponentially MORE great divers diving in Vest BC's than there are great divers diving in BP/W's.

Sure, put some bad vest divers in free dive fins and then say "see I'm faster!" The only study of gear drag I have ever heard of was military, involving tow sleds, and body positioning made significant difference, while the difference between BC's was insignificant.

The human body with tank and hoses is a big drag. The difference between the various BC's is very, very minimal compared to the overall drag of someone diving. I contend that a well designed BC of any variety, with regards to streamlining, does not make a significant difference in the drag of the total package, so saying something like....

So instead of just significantly faster, sometimes a bp/wing diver will be almost exponentially faster than a stab jacket diver

.... is such a load of guano that it makes someone who does have great diving experience sound like some Catskill's inbred country bumpkin.

When a very, very opinionated person loudly, continually and forcefully states their opinion, over and over, without ever indicating it is just their opinion, not only may beginners and lurkers mistakenly think that opinion might be fact, but often it seems the opinionated person actually begins to believe that they are speaking fact.

Until someone does an apples to apples comparison I will continue to "whack the hornet's nest" with regards to the streamlining, red hearing, pile of guano, mythical BP/W opinions!

If I experience something 1000 times, and the repeatability shows a clear pattern, and I form a hypothesis or belief explaining this from the pattern, this IS the scientific method. This IS what I have done, and there are NO non-biased studies done, nor will any be done, that are going to deal with bp/wing efficiency and trim versus vest bc efficiency and trim. If the big BC mfg's were to commission such a study, it would be complete garbage and it would be science prostituted by profit--and it would show how science can SHOW ANYTHING as true, given enough money.

The military has ENTIRELY DIFFERENT issues it is interested in then we do as recreational or tech divers. Most of us do not need to strap on a HK 308 ( assault rifle) and 30 pounds of gear. Most of us do not need to jump out of a helicopter with our fins on. Most of us do not need to swim 2 miles underwater, then run out of the water and jog 5 miles to a safe haven ( or a fire fight). If anything, the military need for endurance for a dive after a HALO would be using fins like force fins, as you need a "low gear" to push your strapped on equipment and firepower over the long swim in, and still have your muscles absolutely fresh when you get out of the water. Again, this bears no resemblence to the discussion areas I am involving myself with.

I think the baby dives you have been stuck with in Hawaii and the Keys have colored your perceptions of reality. Face it, you just don't have the challenging adventure dives to utilize streamlining and efficiency , and your "cruise ship" quality tourist divers would not be able to handle anything like this if you did.

Too bad I can't get you out on a dozen of our adventure dives off of Palm Beach, and you could experience conditions where gear setups actually matter.

 

[Kern]

halleminnow.....
If I experience something 1000 times, and the repeatability shows a clear pattern, and I form a hypothesis or belief explaining this from the pattern, this IS the scientific method. This IS what I have done, and there are NO non-biased studies done, nor will any be done, that are going to deal with bp/wing efficiency and trim versus vest bc efficiency and trim. If the big BC mfg's were to commission such a study, it would be complete garbage and it would be science prostituted by profit--and it would show how science can SHOW ANYTHING as true, given enough money.

The military has ENTIRELY DIFFERENT issues it is interested in then we do as recreational or tech divers. Most of us do not need to strap on a HK 308 ( assault rifle) and 30 pounds of gear. Most of us do not need to jump out of a helicopter with our fins on. Most of us do not need to swim 2 miles underwater, then run out of the water and jog 5 miles to a safe haven ( or a fire fight). If anything, the military need for endurance for a dive after a HALO would be using fins like force fins, as you need a "low gear" to push your strapped on equipment and firepower over the long swim in, and still have your muscles absolutely fresh when you get out of the water. Again, this bears no resemblence to the discussion areas I am involving myself with.

I think the baby dives you have been stuck with in Hawaii and the Keys have colored your perceptions of reality. Face it, you just don't have the challenging adventure dives to utilize streamlining and efficiency , and your "cruise ship" quality tourist divers would not be able to handle anything like this if you did.

Too bad I can't get you out on a dozen of our adventure dives off of Palm Beach, and you could experience conditions where gear setups actually matter.

 

[Sas]

I think the baby dives you have been stuck with in Hawaii and the Keys have colored your perceptions of reality. Face it, you just don't have the challenging adventure dives to utilize streamlining and efficiency , and your "cruise ship" quality tourist divers would not be able to handle anything like this if you did.

Whilst I disagree with halemano and think he has no idea what he is talking about when it comes to BP/Ws given his zero experience with them, it is really not cool to patronise someone over the type of diving they do.

Especially given what you are mocking is the type of diving that this section of the forum is for.

 

[danvolker]

Whilst I disagree with halemano and think he has no idea what he is talking about when it comes to BP/Ws given his zero experience with them, it is really not cool to patronise someone over the type of diving they do.

Sas,
If you read halemano's posts to me, you will see clearly that he was being extremely abrasive ( at the very least). I did not attempt to be as nasty with my reply posting, but I did feel the need to at least give him a little needle back