New to the sport (Purchasing Related)

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scubatoys:
There is definately a difference between some on line shops that have no warranty and boot leg their gear - and an actual shop that does training, service, etc, but also sells on line... at about the same prices - and with full manufacturers warranty!

Larry

One other important difference that you missed for those of us who dive Scubapro gear is, unless you want to break/bend the SP rules, there is not much opportunity for price competition with "those other guys". Thankfully, there are a few enlightened LDSs that have seen the light and found ways to be competetive and still provide that not very important mfgr warrenty.
 
I like to give my LDS first consideration, and so far they've been really good to me. It's an individual choice, but I always like to see what kind of deal they'll cut me before I turn elsewhere. Actually, my one internet purchase didn't go so well - between shipping costs & brokerage fees getting it into Canada, I only ended up saving about $20 over the $260 my fins would've cost at the LDS. And I had to wait a week to get them instead of that instant gratification of having it in my hands now!

For something like a mask, I'd really recommend buying at your LDS just so you can be sure you get a good fit. Different masks fit different faces, and you want to make sure that you get something that doesn't leak constantly. I suppose you could do the fitting at the LDS and then buy it online instead, but I think that's kind of dishonest.
 
jbichsel:
When I can buy an Aqualung reg, SeaQuest BC, etc. from an authorized dealer in Texas, with full warranties, pay to have it shipped to Colorado, and still save $200+ on each item from what the LDS's want here, how can I argue?

I think one problem is that most LDS's don't make money on classes. Instruction is a 'break even' or even a loss. The gear is the 'cash cow'. That's where the problems of quality instruction come into play. Since most instructors at an LDS become an equipment salesperson first and instructor second, the emphasis is put on quantity of sales rather than quality of instruction.

An Aqualung Legend LX at an LDS here is $595 or more just for 1st and 2nd stage. Then there's the octo and gauges. I know what cost is, and the markup is ridiculous. How about a mask for $120 when I can get the exact same thing for $30?

From the frequency that the LDS owners are out of country on dive trips, it seems to be to fund their hobby. I'm nopt knocking capitalism or free market, but sanity must enter the picture.

Here in Colorado, people have no problem come October when the peaks start to turn white, running out and dropping $1,000+ on skis and bindings, $400+ on boots, $400+ on jackets, pants, etc. I ski also, but I sure don't pay retail. It is somewhat easier to sell ski equipment and lessons around here when people can just look around and see mountains and know that you can use that gear 5-9 months out of the year, with only a 1-2 hour drive.
But scuba becomes more difficult as Colorado has no beachfront property yet, the lakes are cold, Surprisingly, there are quite a few divers in Colorado. I heard that we have the highest number per capita in the nation. But everyone still wants a deal when it comes to diving here.

I'm all for supporting the LDS's as I may soon be one myself, sort of. However, there needs to be some way to meet the wants and needs of the diving community who don't have "Bill Gates" money.

Purchasing Aqualung products online is suppose to be against their policy. Some dive shop owners bend the 'rules' set down by some of the big name manufacturers and they are hurting the LDS in a different market who's pricing is inline with what the big name dictates.
So let's say I am a LDS and I have a customer that I know bought a Seaquest BCD from a store selling it online, I would call my Aqualung rep and sqawk. He would tell the online dealer to desist and may theaten to cut their supply if they did not comply.
So jbichsel, the LDS is trying to play by the rules the manufacturers dictate and they suffer when you buy from someone bending the rules.
Someday dive equipment manufacturers will change their way of doing things;
1. don't set prices
2. sell any gear to any bonfide retailer without geographical restrictions or protected areas
3. allow prices to be posted online
4. allow online selling
5. stop requiring booking programs and then shipping all the leftover cr@p
6. let the LDS run their own business

You guys are blaming the LDS for price gouging then buying elsewhere when the blame should fall squarely on the dive equipment suppliers shoulders and their outmoded policies.
If you don't like the way your LDS sets prices complain to Aqualung, Scubapro, and all the major manufacturers who are screwing the industry with their antiquated ways of doing business. Better yet, BOYCOTT any brand that fixes prices and availablity.

whew, that feels better
:crafty:
 
AtomicWalrus:
I like to give my LDS first consideration, and so far they've been really good to me. It's an individual choice, but I always like to see what kind of deal they'll cut me before I turn elsewhere. Actually, my one internet purchase didn't go so well - between shipping costs & brokerage fees getting it into Canada, I only ended up saving about $20 over the $260 my fins would've cost at the LDS. And I had to wait a week to get them instead of that instant gratification of having it in my hands now!

For something like a mask, I'd really recommend buying at your LDS just so you can be sure you get a good fit. Different masks fit different faces, and you want to make sure that you get something that doesn't leak constantly. I suppose you could do the fitting at the LDS and then buy it online instead, but I think that's kind of dishonest.

I totally agree! Give the LDS a chance to sell to you. If they have the item or will get it in for even a few bucks more than online shopping then I would buy from the LDS, otherwise it may be up to them to be more competitive.

cheers,
 
weekender:
which online shops have no warranty? LP does if you are attempting to slander them. also what is" boot leg their gear" are you implying that your competition is dishonest and you are a sactuary of integrity online? im curious why you are permitted to make such post when they are so oblviously advertisements and attempts to discredit your competition. i have never heard a bad thing about your business on this board or any other. you should let your happy customers speak for you. they certainly do a better job representing your business then you do. i've always been impressed with your satified customers post and also your website and pricing. with that said im not impressed with your cheap shots and again wish you would put your personal business addvertisments in its rightful place. just some thoughts from an independent intructor who shops online and makes recomendations to people.

It is my understanding that many manufacturers do not permit online selling, or do so only on a retailer-by-retailer basis. ScubaToys honors these rules, and gets permission to sell online, run pricing specials, etc. (For example: LDS's used to not be allowed to sell you a Zeagle online, and ScubaToys wouldn't. Leisurepro would. Many manufacturer's won't sell to LP, and yet LP constantly has their stuff to sell... hmmm.) There have been many, many questions about where LP "gets their stuff." (Do a general search on "LeisurePro" and "grey-market" or "scubapro" or "lawsuit" to see more.) Why do you think LP can't pass along manufacturer's warranties? If I were Larry, or any LDS, I'd stay pretty pissed at a "grey market" store that forced my margins down. I bought a few things from LP back in the day before I started getting discounts from the local LDS's and ScubaToys opened up here just because of the incredible savings. I was always very sure that what I was buying wasn't a high maintenance item and that I wouldn't need customer service regarding the purchase. (Spend 10 minutes on the the phone with LP, and then call ScubaToys...you'll see.)

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I don't care too much about the "support your local LDS" theme, but I do care about supporting a good, ethical, customer-focused business over an "allegedly" grey-market business notorious for questionable practices and bad customer service.

And, just so you know, I am not "in league" with ScubaToys, as they are not the closest shop to me, and I have a long-term relationship with another shop. (Although I do refer local students to them.) I've even had a pretty good discussion or two with Larry about some of his "opinions". Ask him what he thinks of PADI or Bonne Terre mine, for example :wink: .
 
Allen42:
It is my understanding that many manufacturers do not permit online selling, or do so only on a retailer-by-retailer basis. ScubaToys honors these rules, and gets permission to sell online, run pricing specials, etc. (For example: LDS's used to not be allowed to sell you a Zeagle online, and ScubaToys wouldn't. Leisurepro would. Many manufacturer's won't sell to LP, and yet LP constantly has their stuff to sell... hmmm.) There have been many, many questions about where LP "gets their stuff." (Do a general search on "LeisurePro" and "grey-market" or "scubapro" or "lawsuit" to see more.) Why do you think LP can't pass along manufacturer's warranties? If I were Larry, or any LDS, I'd stay pretty pissed at a "grey market" store that forced my margins down. I bought a few things from LP back in the day before I started getting discounts from the local LDS's and ScubaToys opened up here just because of the incredible savings. I was always very sure that what I was buying wasn't a high maintenance item and that I wouldn't need customer service regarding the purchase. (Spend 10 minutes on the the phone with LP, and then call ScubaToys...you'll see.)

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I don't care too much about the "support your local LDS" theme, but I do care about supporting a good, ethical, customer-focused business over an "allegedly" grey-market business notorious for questionable practices and bad customer service.

And, just so you know, I am not "in league" with ScubaToys, as they are not the closest shop to me, and I have a long-term relationship with another shop. (Although I do refer local students to them.) I've even had a pretty good discussion or two with Larry about some of his "opinions". Ask him what he thinks of PADI or Bonne Terre mine, for example :wink: .
First of all, LeisurePro does make a point of offering their own warranty to replace any lack of one from the factory, and while everyone's individual experience will vary as to their service they don't really market themselves as a high service provider. Can you name a single retailer that offers best in class customer service along with generally the lowest price? I bet alot of small retailers accused Walmart of some sort of unquantified unfair business practices when Walmart was putting them out of business. What I am continuously impressed about with LP is their vast array of products, second to none in depth compared to other online retailers, and their consistantly lower prices, which are clearly listed on the web site (none of that "call for the lowest price").
 
weekender:
which online shops have no warranty? LP does if you are attempting to slander them. also what is" boot leg their gear" are you implying that your competition is dishonest and you are a sactuary of integrity online? im curious why you are permitted to make such post when they are so oblviously advertisements and attempts to discredit your competition. i have never heard a bad thing about your business on this board or any other. you should let your happy customers speak for you. they certainly do a better job representing your business then you do. i've always been impressed with your satified customers post and also your website and pricing. with that said im not impressed with your cheap shots and again wish you would put your personal business addvertisments in its rightful place. just some thoughts from an independent intructor who shops online and makes recomendations to people.

I was not specifically naming any site... and I stand corrected, I should have said "There is definately a difference between some on line shops that have no Manufacturers warranty" instead of "some on line shops that have no warranty". I was really not trying to make a "cheap shot". There are many places on line that offer full manufacturers warranty - not just me - and many places that do not - not just LP.

The thing concerning a company that has grey market - or boot legged goods - and that is a standard term - just means not from the manufacturer - not implying they stole it... but the problem arises when if the manufacturer is not selling to them - how are warranty issues corrected. They normally accomplish that by simply replacing a problem unit - and eating the cost of doing it. But how would a company replace something if they don't have it - and can't get it from the manufacturer??

Many of the manufacturers are making great strides to cut of the supply of grey market goods... ScubaPro is even going to start serializing their fins so they can track where they are going. If you had a bad Atomic Reg that needed replacing - LP has been out of them for months. Atomic found who was supplying them and cut them off. So what can they do?? Or if you had one of the Atomic Regs that had the Bad Spring issue, and the warranty papers never got sent in to the manufacturer because you bought grey market, did you find out about the recall? How many guys are doing a 100 ft dive on a reg that that has a bad spring that can shut off air supply at depth?

In my original post - I was just trying to point out there are differences between full service dive shops that sell on line and are authorized dealers, and sites that are not. I understand there are lots of different kinds of people in the world. Some will steal equipment, some will buy stolen equipment, some will buy from a site that is not an authorized dealer, some will insist they are authorized, some will only buy from a local shop they can walk into. There are many kinds of people - so there has to be many different business models.

I was trying to point out differences, and not "slam" any specific company - if it came up that way... please accept my apologies...
 
yknot:
What I am continuously impressed about with LP is their vast array of products, second to none in depth compared to other online retailers, and their consistantly lower prices, which are clearly listed on the web site (none of that "call for the lowest price").

Again this is a function of the manufacturs MAP (minimum advertised price) policy. For example, I'm not allowed to put an Aeris Elite on our page below the $799 price the manufacturer has set. If I did, they would take away my dealership... So to maintain full warranty coverage - and authorized dealer status, it's marked at that price. Now is someone calls up and wants to order a setup of gear, we can work out a package deal and save them money - but the authorized dealers are really stuck with having to list a Map price - but you can still "call for the lowest price".

Hope that explains that one.
 
Well I must say that I have learned a lot on this subject over the past week or so. In short, it sounds like a mess to me. I cant believe the industry is set up that way. Changes need to made.

I ordered 2 sets of fins and 2 snorkels online for 157.45 shipped to my door. If I had "supported" my LDS these same items would have cost me 298.00 + tax.

I dont see how anyone could even try and make the case that I should have bought these items from my LDS.

I never go in to any store and blindly make a purchase. I always check out the pricing on the net first so as to not get bent over the counter at some chain.

So in this case, I just did what I always do. The only difference is the price was anywhere from 50-70% higher at the LDS.

Unless my LDS can at least get in the ball park on their prices, I will be taking my business online.
 
that most LDS shops charge "a lot" is to be able to afford to dispense free advice, provide a pool, etc.

On the other hand, the reason most LDS shops insist you purchase mask,fins,snorkel, book, class and then rent gear for the OW dives is because well over 90% of new SCOOBER divers quit in 1 year.
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/swift/

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