Orange Grove fatality?

Please register or login

Welcome to ScubaBoard, the world's largest scuba diving community. Registration is not required to read the forums, but we encourage you to join. Joining has its benefits and enables you to participate in the discussions.

Benefits of registering include

  • Ability to post and comment on topics and discussions.
  • A Free photo gallery to share your dive photos with the world.
  • You can make this box go away

Joining is quick and easy. Log in or Register now!

Where I respectfully disagree is,"holding the instuctors accountable for cranking out certs". I think personal responsibility of the divers still apply. For example, I took drivers education when I was 16. One person in my class of 25 took his dad's car and drove very fast resulting in a wreck,where he suffered a traumatic brain injury. Sorry I can't hold the instructor responsible, and the accident victim knew he was doing wrong.

There is a Dunning-Kruger problem. When you have an instructor that thinks he's better than he is, telling a student that he's better than he really is, it can feed a false self-image. When you think you know more than you do, and you think you're better than you are, it's a recipe for disaster.
 
I have gleaned enough information from discussing this tragic incident to improve the training I provide to my students.

Consider this.

In my cavern course, I spend some time discussing the limits of cavern training and how as certified cavern divers they have to stay within those limits AND they have a responsibility to not take openwater divers into a cavern.

In my intro course, I review the limits of both cavern and intro to cave. We discuss their responsibility to cavern divers (don't take them into the cave), and to openwater divers (don't take them into overhead at all).

In my full cave course, we review the limits of all three levels and repeat the same process.

As an instructor YOU can instill a sense of responsibility in your students towards others that lack their training.

I also do not mince words. I tell them that people that encourage them to dive beyond their limitations are assholes, they need to be prepared to pull out the thumb, and they shouldn't be an *******.
 
Kelly my opinion is the instructors are the professionals and should be held accountable for what they do. In your example of the student in your driving class I think you are looking at it incorrectly. This student was not issued a license by the instructor. Now if your drivers ed instructor had issued him one to race in a NASCAR race would you not say this instructor was wrong? That is basically what we have going on in the industry. Some instructors are pushing gear and classes to people who are no where experienced enough to handle it if something goes wrong. The agencies don't care because it brings in $$$ and the instructor simply says well they did all the drills required to pass the class. If holding the instructors responsible for not saying "no you are not ready" is something that you feel is not correct then what do you propose? It seems to me the current way is not working and as technology increases the problem will only get worse in my opinion.

I am not a rebreather diver but everyone I know that is says that sidemount rebreathers are really tricky to dive due to the single counter lung. I am seeing these advertised as easy to dive and the greatest thing since sliced bread. They are being sold to cave divers who are no where near the level where they actually need them. I have been seeing pictures of people right after class scootering with a single tank as dilulant / bailout. I am betting if they have a CO2 hit this one tank will not be enough to get them out.

I just don't see the agencies being proactive in discouraging this reckless behavior and in my opinion it is due to the money involved.
 
I just don't see the agencies being proactive in discouraging this reckless behavior and in my opinion it is due to the money involved.

In my mind agencies set the standards and if the standard has been passed then they issue a card showing proficiency. If there is a recognizable problem, for example in some of the instances you mentioned, then having them change standards, or issue advisories to their instructors is a prudent thing to do. I agree there are problems in all areas, and you offer some good example,but somewhere in all the discussions of blame the agency, or blame the instructor,we leave out the diver having some personal responsibility. I know of too many instances of full cave student today, go to the Heinkel tomorrow, where I know the instructor well enough that this was never promoted, encouraged, or imagined. These behaviors are not new,we used to call it the Gold card syndrome,but some of have noticed a greater tendency with the advent of social media involved in cave diving.
 
Last edited:
Kelly swimming to the Henkel shouldn't be an issue for any full cave diver. Now scootering to the Hinkle on their brand new 250' fpm scooter that they just bought from their instructors shop should be a concern to the agencies. They can easily control this but stick their heads in the sand. I do agree the diver is responsible but if the agencies can't control their own "professionals" how do they think they are going to influence their students. I just don't see the agencies making any kind of effort to curtail this type of behavior and I believe it is because of the good ol boy network and the fact that money comes first.
 
Kelly swimming to the Henkel shouldn't be an issue for any full cave diver. Now scootering to the Hinkle on their brand new 250' fpm scooter that they just bought from their instructors shop should be a concern to the agencies. They can easily control this but stick their heads in the sand. I do agree the diver is responsible but if the agencies can't control their own "professionals" how do they think they are going to influence their students. I just don't see the agencies making any kind of effort to curtail this type of behavior and I believe it is because of the good ol boy network and the fact that money comes first.

Well; the "money comes first" aspect is often there.

There is a Scuba store in Southern Cal that is notorious for attempting to sell his new students a custom drysuit, expensive reg and computer package, AND a rebreather-all this to a brand new diver. A recipe for disaster.
 
In my mind agencies set the standards and if the standard has been passed then they issue a card showing proficiency. If there is a recognizable problem, for example in some of the instances you mentioned, then having them change standards, or issue advisories to their instructors is a prudent thing to do. I agree there are problems in all areas, and you offer some good example,but somewhere in all the discussions of blame the agency, or blame the instructor,we leave out the diver having some personal responsibility. I know of too many instances of full cave student today, go to the Heinkel tomorrow, where I know the instructor well enough that this was never promoted, encouraged, or imagined. These behaviors are not new,we used to call it the Gold card syndrome,but some of have noticed a greater tendency with the advent of social media involved in cave diving.

Cave diving, perhaps more than any other type of diving, requires good judgment. And the consequences of making a bad judgment call can easily be fatal. When I took my initial cave training it was an 8-day "zero to hero" class. Now, keep in mind that I already had prior tech training, including trimix, wreck, and a couple thousand dives ... including over 100 dives below 200 feet. So many of the requisite skills were familiar to me. What wasn't familiar was the mindset differences between cave and other forms of overhead diving. At the end, my instructor told me I'd achieved all the proficiencies, but he didn't feel good about giving me a full cave cert because I'd demonstrated a couple times that I lacked the ability to make good judgment calls. He gave me an apprentice cert and told me to go dive at that level for a while, then come back and see him ... which I did. In hindsight, it was the absolute right call ... despite the fact that I'd met all agency standards for a full cave certification.

The agencies cannot anticipate everything ... they can only provide a framework. It's up to instructors to put your skills and proficiencies into the context of the level of diving you're trying to do, and to factor in the types of judgment calls you make during the course of the class. I give my instructor all the credit in the world for having provided me with that level of training... and for making me fully cognizant of the potential consequences of the types of judgment calls he saw me making. It may well have kept me alive long enough to be sitting here typing this today ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
 
I know GUE recently published a letter from the editor of their magazine Quest where they pretty much said they will fully support any of their instructors who declines to issue a card to a technically competent student who seems to them to have issues with judgement or other similar issues.
 
I know GUE recently published a letter from the editor of their magazine Quest where they pretty much said they will fully support any of their instructors who declines to issue a card to a technically competent student who seems to them to have issues with judgement or other similar issues.
NAUI has always taken that position. They call it their "Loved One Policy" ... if you wouldn't trust this student to dive with someone you love, you should not issue them a c-card ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
 
I am not a rebreather diver but everyone I know that is says..../

You apparently don't know me. But you're mistaken in a few areas (as are the folks you do know) when it comes to sidemount rebreathers.

I am seeing these advertised as easy to dive and the greatest thing since sliced bread.
And from above
/...sidemount rebreathers are really tricky to dive due to the single counter lung.

Let's start by saying not all sidemount rebreathers have a single counter lung. Do some research.

Not that it matters...

I've been diving a KISS Sidekick for about a year now, and I have to say it really is pretty easy to dive - provided you are already a proficient sidemount cave diver. You'll want to take a technical CCR course with it, rather than just a short OW oriented course, and you'll want put in 10-20 hours on the unit before you even think about venturing into a cave, and once in the cave, you'll be well advised to restrict yourself to intro level dives for the first 40 hours or so. But it's not difficult to dive, and failures are easy to manage.

I keep hearing the issue with a single counter lung, but I have to say I just don't see the problem. The Sidekick is very flood tolerant, can be recovered from a nearly total flood, and if the unit is properly positioned you'll hear water gurgling in the exhale tower area (right next tot he OPV) long before you've got enough water in the unit to cause a problem, and if you've got water in the system, you can place the OPV at the low spot in the system, hit the ADV paddle and remove the water.

Assuming you had a counter lung failure where you exhaled and then had no gas to inhale due to the single counter lung design, you just need to go to your bailout reg bungeed under your chin. It's no different than failing to get your next breath on OC with a DIR hose configuration. There doesn't seem to be a great deal of worry about that.

/...are being sold to cave divers who are no where near the level where they actually need them.

What level is that exactly? 300' Eagles Nest dives? How about a much more sedate dive to Hendley's Castle or lower Lower Orange Grove?

Or are you suggesting it's all about penetration distance and unless you're doing 5000 foot plus penetrations there's no need?

You need to consider some of the advantages of a CCR before you define the "suitable" applications for a CCR.

CCR offers substantial advantage in decompression even at 90-100' depths. For example, a fairly short dive in Ginnie that might have an initial deco stop of 2 minutes at 20' on a CCR running a set point of 1.2 may have an initial deco stop of 2 minutes at 40 feet, with commensurately longer shallower stops.

Consider a dive in a low, tight and very silty side mount passage where you encounter old and buried line. Low viz is a given and if you have to stop and repair the line, near zero viz is a near certainty. That becomes a much riskier dive on OC where you have limited gas and limited time. And it becomes much more stressful on exit, if you encounter broken line that you have to fix, especially if you are racking up excess deco, in addition to cutting into your reserve gas. The resulting time pressure can lead to more pressure to exit faster, with a sloppier exit and potentially diver errors.

Let's also consider a dive up the Water Source tunnel, a dive to the Crypt, a dive to poke around those cool rooms and lines off the line to Challenge, a dive to Woody's Room, or perhaps a dive past the second T in the Spring Tunnel - all in the very touristy Peacock system. Those are normally dives that require hauling a stage, and in some cases a pair of stages. All of them can be done by dropping just a single stage of extra bailout gas per team member, and if you're going to be diving there a few days you can just drop the gas at key points in the system and not have to haul it until the final clean up dive. And you'll never use it, so your gas costs are much less than if you actually breathed those stages on every single dive.

Plus, given that Peacock is a shallow system, with a CCR you can do a single 4 hour dive, without carrying a stage, and since you don't have to cover the same boring bits from P1 to where ever it gets interesting, you can spend a lot more time in the interesting bits than you could with two 2 hour OC dives.

Consequently, I am of the opinion that a CCR is a useful tool even in touristy caves at normal 90-100' depths and normal single stage dive penetration distances.

have been seeing pictures of people right after class scootering with a single tank as dilulant / bailout. I am betting if they have a CO2 hit this one tank will not be enough to get them out.

To be fair, I've seem OC divers who were not in my opinion carrying enough bailout gas on their DPV dives either. It was a factor in a fatality at Ginnie a year or so ago.

CCR or OC, however, any pictures are probably not showing the staged gas the team may have placed in the system as additional bailout, so I try not to judge based on a picture or seeing a diver at just one point in the cave.

Most Sidekick divers I know have a long hose for bailout, so it's not just your bailout gas available for the exit, but also the team mate's gas as well. I don't know about you, but in my cave DPV class we practiced gas sharing while scootering out of the cave. The major difference with CCR is needing to manage the loop volume on the "no longer in use" CCR when significant decreases in depth occur during the exit, which might slow the exit a minute or so in total.

You're also possibly proposing a dual failure scenario where not only does the scooter fail, but also the CCR, and in a manner that forces the diver off the loop. I agree you need to plan for a CCR failure that puts you off the loop, but I think also planning for a simultaneous DPV failure is going a bit overboard. At some point you start calculating the risks of driving to the site and you just stay home.

CCRs also offer a couple of options in various failure modes where you can stay on the loop (electronics failures, etc) and that enable you to greatly extend the available gasses on exit.

As for CO2 hits, I've had failures in O2 delivery (plugged orifice), failures on the diluent side (hard to activate ADV due to IP creep in the diluent reg, and a leaking ADV), various sensor failure modes, and floods, and I've intentionally over breathed the loop in OW to see where the limits were at, but, knock on wood, I've never had an issue with scrubber break through.

That's not all luck however, as IMHO, the scrubber is the most controllable and reliable portion of the system with a CCR Sidekick. Use good sorb that has been properly stored, test the mushroom valves prior to every dive, pay very close attention to packing the scrubber (and the axial scrubber on the Sidekick is easy to pack well), don't get cheap and start pushing the scrubber time, and if you've get water in the unit, don't let it sit there. If you do all that a scrubber failure forcing you off the loop is very unlikely. A counter lung failure in a Sidekick is also very unlikely, given how it's made and how it's protected.

Now... that said, I still plan for enough bailout gas per diver to cover 2x our normal RMV over the entire exit from max penetration, and with a 2 person team that ends up being 4x the gas that would normally be needed. If you're thinking about arguing that 4x might not be enough, don't bother. If I have a 45 minute exit from a cave and I can't get my respiration rate below 4x I'm most likely going to die of something other than lack of gas.
 

Back
Top Bottom