PADI Junior Open Water Diver

[DevonDiver]

Excellent point. I'll rephrase.

I find it disturbing that you, as an instructor, don't know the standards from having read them and have instead been relying on hearsay.

It's a matter of when he finally got around to reading them.

I'd only find it disturbing if he'd previously been teaching junior divers based on that assumption.

I've never taught a junior open water course, and I wouldn't have been absolutely clear about that standard unless I'd checked... which I would have done if anyone ever talked me into doing a kids class.

 

[Crowley]

To clarify on standards: Diver Age Restrictions, p23 General Standards And Procedures, Key Standards can be summarised as follows:

10 - 11 year olds - maximum depth for training is 12M, after certification, must dive with a certified parent, guardian or PADI Pro to a maximum of 12 metres

For 12 - 14 year olds, maximum depth for training is 18M and after certification they must dive with a certified adult.

PADI pros are required to honour the 10 - 11 year old diving depth restrictions when supervising junior divers but we are NOT required to stick to a hard and fast limit of 18metres when diving with any other open water certified diver, aged 12 and over.

All the forms required to be signed by student and parent/guardian and instructor alike require that these limits be adhered to when beginning training for a 10-11 year old but one could suggest there is a legal grey area because who makes these rules? PADI is clearly not a law-maker, but I wouldn't want to fight the issue if these standards were broken and something went wrong.

For the maximum depths - some dive centres stick religiously to the "adult" training limits, for liability or local legislative purposes. Others do not. A diver is certified to dive in conditions in which they are trained, yes, but the conditions at 20 metres might be very similar indeed to the conditions at 18 metres when diving in the same location - but transferring a tropical resort course OW certification to the Pacific North West means that a PADI shop over there has the right to insist on further training before even getting in the water.

But - the decisions to break those training limits are, technically, the responsibility of the diver, not whomever they are diving with on the day.

As for the original post, the Junior OW depth limitations are often mis-interpreted and I've heard plenty of people say that they thought the restrictions apply to all Junior divers, not just 10-11 year olds. I would suggest that this is because (a ) they took somebody else's advice and (b ) Thought it was perfectly sensible advice and therefore didn't question it.

There are a lot of standards, and it's impossible to remember them all when you don't teach something regularly. For those who think it's disturbing that an instructor can't remember all the standards - consider that in this case, the instructor was wrong, but if they had enforced restrictions on all junior divers to a maximum depth limit of 12m they would be doing something with just that little bit of extra risk removed.

Good grief! Just think - a PADI instructor doing something too safe! What is the world coming to!?

Cheers

C.

 

[Ste Wart]

There are a lot of standards, and it's impossible to remember them all when you don't teach something regularly. For those who think it's disturbing that an instructor can't remember all the standards - consider that in this case, the instructor was wrong, but if they had enforced restrictions on all junior divers to a maximum depth limit of 12m they would be doing something with just that little bit of extra risk removed.

Good grief! Just think - a PADI instructor doing something too safe! What is the world coming to!?

Cheers

C.

On this very rare occasion I'm going to have to disagree with you Crowley.

There are a lot of standards, yes, hence why we have the manual and all instructors (and future DM's) are required to have it. There is no excuse for not knowing a standard.
And we should all make the effort to refresh our memories on a regular basis. I always run through core courses when a new manual comes out so as to check that nothing mega has happened e.g removing the fin pivot.

Although it does amaze me how people can fail the standards exams in the I.E It's open book ferrchrissakes!!!!!!!

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

....

also when conducting more than three dives in one day the maximum depth is 12m/40ft. Also the depth restrictions apply only to Training dives. The 70 feet limit is for the Deep Adventure Training dive.

....

Brian, I am confused by this part (these parts);

With regards to number of "training dives" in a day; my understanding is that a PADI student can not be taken on more than 3 training dives in one day and any CW training counts as a training dive. Do the new Standards allow a PADI student to be taken on more than 3 training dives in one day? Is there a limit for how many training dives an Instructor can do in a day? Is it max depth 40' for all dives if conducting more than 3 dives in one day? Or maybe just the last dive? Or dives 4,5,6....?

What if a PADI Instructor had 4 individual, private, AOW Students? What if the Instructor has "written permission" from PADI to conduct the AOW Deep dive at the Corsair? Could not the Instructor make 4 107' training dives in one day?

With regards to Adventure Dives; are you saying the Standards are now different than from '08? This is the exact wording from the '08 IM;

"Dive Depth Limits
The maximum depth for any Adven-
ture Dive is 30 metres/100 feet. For
12-14 year olds, the maximum depth
for any Adventure Dive is 21 me-
tres/70 feet. For 10-11 year olds the
maximum depth is 12 metres/40 feet."

(I underlined and bolded)

 

[BrianKon]

Brian, I am confused by this part (these parts);

With regards to number of "training dives" in a day; my understanding is that a PADI student can not be taken on more than 3 training dives in one day and any CW training counts as a training dive. Do the new Standards allow a PADI student to be taken on more than 3 training dives in one day? Is there a limit for how many training dives an Instructor can do in a day? Is it max depth 40' for all dives if conducting more than 3 dives in one day? Or maybe just the last dive? Or dives 4,5,6....?

With regards to Adventure Dives; are you saying the Standards are now different than from '08? This is the exact wording from the '08 IM;

"Dive Depth Limits
The maximum depth for any Adven-
ture Dive is 30 metres/100 feet. For
12-14 year olds, the maximum depth
for any Adventure Dive is 21 me-
tres/70 feet. For 10-11 year olds the
maximum depth is 12 metres/40 feet."

(I underlined and bolded)

Oops, sorry about that everyone, it was late last night I did not mean to say more than three dive, I meant to say "when conducting three dives in a day the max is 40 feet"

According to the 2011 PADI manual, 15 years and older max depth is 100 feet. (Deep Specialty) Pg. 58 as previously posted.

Brian

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

Oops, sorry about that everyone, it was late last night I did not mean to say more than three dive, I meant to say "when conducting three dives in a day the max is 40 feet"

According to the 2011 PADI manual, 15 years and older max depth is 100 feet. (Deep Specialty) Pg. 58 as previously posted.

Brian

Since the topic of this thread is pretty much PADI Standards, precise typing is recommended.

"when conducting three TRAINING dives in a day the max depth FOR THE 3RD TRAINING DIVE is 40 feet"

That last sentence is very imprecise; 15 years old and older, 100' is the max training depth for the Adventure Dives and the "recommended" depth limit for an AOW certified diver, 130' is the max training depth for the Deep Specialty and the "recommended" depth limit for divers with deep training. "Experience" is also used in the recommendation in that an OW certified diver could go to 100' with advanced "experience" and an AOW certified diver could go to 130' with deep "experience."

AFAIC, Knotical answered all the important Q's in this thread, years ago;

In general, PADI recommends maximum depths after certification be the same as the maximums during training, so for your specific question, 60 feet.

To expand, I first double checked by searching on words like "depth" in the Instructor Manual.

For 10-11 year olds, the maximum depth is 40 feet, both in training, and after certification.

For 12-14 year olds in training, the maximum depth during the Open Water course is 60 feet.
This increases to 70 feet during the AOW course.

For age 15 and above the maximum depth during OW training is 60 feet.
During AOW training it is 100 feet.
And during Deep Diver Specialty training,130 feet.
Only those age 15 or older can take the Deep Diver specialty.

After certification, recommended maximum depths are 60 feet for novices, 100 feet for AOW, and 130 feet with the Deep specialty.
I did not find a specific recommendation for 12-14 year olds with Junior AOW, but suggest that the training maximum of 70 feet would be appropriate.

Also, the Training Standards only apply to the students AFAICT. If I was working off Key Largo, I could take one Deep Specialty student, age 15, to the sand at the Duane (120'+) on morning dive #1, back down to just above the main deck of the Duane (100') on dive #2, then after lunch take a second 15 year old Deep Specialty student to just above the sand at the Bibb (130') on afternoon dive #1 and back down to the port rail/companionway of the Bibb (~100') on dive #2.

If the second student was diving 2 dives for fun off another boat in the morning, am I violating Standards on his Deep Specialty training dives?

I do not have an '11 PADI IM available at home, only at the dive shop, so I can not look to see if Standards have changed since Knotical's post. :shocked2:

 

[Ste Wart]

I do not have an '11 PADI IM available at home, only at the dive shop, so I can not look to see if Standards have changed since Knotical's post. :shocked2:

Why don't you log onto the PADI website and download it?

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

Well; I have tried, now just failing on my 4th or 5th attempt. AFAIR, I have never successfully logged on to the new PADI Pro site, but when I am attempting to create new account it says my member number is already associated with an account. If only I knew the user name and password, 'cause nothing I have tried works. This always seems to come up on a weekend or holiday and I haven't remembered to call when they are answering the phone.

 

[TMHeimer]

I'd only find it disturbing if he'd previously been teaching junior divers based on that assumption.

I've never taught a junior open water course, and I wouldn't have been absolutely clear about that standard unless I'd checked... which I would have done if anyone ever talked me into doing a kids class.

That's what I was thinking way back when the OP was taking heat. Same thing for a DM would be: If you've never DMd a charter and only DMd OW classes with shore checkouts would you have on the tip of your tongue the info. needed for boat duty? Is it expected that all Instructors know all the standards exactly at all times?

 

[Ste Wart]

That's what I was thinking way back when the OP was taking heat. Same thing for a DM would be: If you've never DMd a charter and only DMd OW classes with shore checkouts would you have on the tip of your tongue the info. needed for boat duty? Is it expected that all Instructors know all the standards exactly at all times?

Perhaps not.

But.

I have heard several instructors claim that jOW's can only go to 12 metres. Clearly they haven't read the manual and are quoting directly from hearsay. Could you trust an instructor who doesn't bother to read the manual?