Poor/dangerous behavior by instructor (not mine) -- what to do?

[Rhone Man]

Yeah, having read through the various posts I am slightly leaning towards the view you may have over-reacted a tad. Not saying what he did was prudent, but not worth yelling about and embarking on a crusade. If you dive long enough, you will see a lot worse (I suspect you would have a heart attack if you met "instructors" who regularly take uncertified divers into caverns in Mexico and Southern Europe). And agency standards are not laws. Nobody got hurt, or was put in a potentially threatening position, so probably I would have left it at a conversation with the instructor afterward if you felt really strongly about it.

I found it wildly unprofessional, and I am admittedly angry.

Maybe I am supposed to just chalk it up to "there are assholes out there, ignore them the best you can", but this is really unacceptable behavior in my mind, so yeah, I reported it to his shop. At that level, he should know better.

This is probably where I would disagree with you more strongly. Although they refer to it as a "profession", the truth is the standard required to be a scuba instructor is not very high, and most instructors keep it up for 2 years or less. Not knocking the more dedicated instructors out there, but dive long enough and you meet a lot of bad instructors. It is not like qualifying as a doctor or an architect - "profession" or no, many of them are just a bunch of young kids having fun before life gets more serious. I set my expectations accordingly.

 

[EastEndDiver]

"He knew this was a dive requiring extra training, he knew I didn't have it. He should never have suggested I try it without training in the first place, and it's mind blowing that he kept asking after I had already said no multiple times. That is a major problem."

You had a choice and decided against it by saying no.There is another thread about responsibility - basically it comes down to "You are responsible for You",because someone suggests something is criminalizing them correct? You had a choice in the matter and chose the prudent decision for yourself.Yet you allowed your dive buddy to leave.

 

[ktkt]

Ktkt...not quite sure why you are asking the question when your mind seems to be already made up.
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I tend to agree with with Mathauck and Jax on this one. You told the individual and his store. Not sure what you will accomplish (beside perhaps personal vendetta) by going further but I guess this is really up to you . One thing I have learn from experience is that it is always better to attempt to deal with conflict mano to mano with the concerned individual vs crusading and telling the world. Normally the latter will not solve anything and will just be a source of resentment for all involved.

Fair enough. I tried talking to him personally, and he didn't want to hear it. He already knew what was best for me. I thought what he did and his attitude about it were way out of line, so I told his shop. I wanted to know if contacting his agency was appropriate and/or productive, and I got a bunch of opinions on that; I probably won't bother because it seems unlikely to make a difference. Due to questions asked here, I thought some more about how I could have done things better this time, and how I'll do things differently next time I encounter such a person.

 

[RTee]

That reminds me, I ought to write a letter to the shop where I trained

(Tell them how much more I appreciate my instructors now that I know more and have seen a lot more divers and a few other instructors. I mean, I liked 'em in the first place, but these days, I think, "Wow, I had it good...")

Is it really to do that or just to tell more people about your experience and attempt to rally them to your side???

Just something for you to ponder..... I don't need an answer

 

[mathauck0814]

Is it really to do that or just to tell more people about your experience and attempt to rally them to your side???

Profile says OP from Berkeley, CA. They do causes well up north.

 

[ktkt]

Yeah, having read through the various posts I am slightly leaning towards the view you may have over-reacted a tad. Not saying what he did was prudent, but not worth yelling about and embarking on a crusade. If you dive long enough, you will see a lot worse (I suspect you would have a heart attack if you met "instructors" who regularly take uncertified divers into caverns in Mexico and Southern Europe). And agency standards are not laws. Nobody got hurt, or was put in a potentially threatening position, so probably I would have left it at a conversation with the instructor afterward if you felt really strongly about it.

Nah, no heart attacks, but I'm not going near those guys, and I personally will take an actual cavern course before ever hitting those spots myself.

This is probably where I would disagree with you more strongly. Although they refer to it as a "profession", the truth is the standard required to be a scuba instructor is not very high, and most instructors keep it up for 2 years or less. Not knocking the more dedicated instructors out there, but dive long enough and you meet a lot of bad instructors. It is not like qualifying as a doctor or an architect - "profession" or no, many of them are just a bunch of young kids having fun before life gets more serious. I set my expectations accordingly.

I guess I lead a charmed life, because my experiences with divemasters and instructors has almost always been good so far. Perhaps the standard is low, though, because we often don't speak up when we should, and that is a big part of what I am trying to get at here. But this guy was no kid; I'm not sure how long he has been teaching, but he has apparently been diving since I was three.

 

[Rogersea]

This is an interesting conversation. I think you did what was right for you. I am a reasonably experienced instructor, but I have never placed myself in this situation. It sounds like there was never any danger posed to any of the people on the dive.

This issue brings up something which often makes me scratch my head, and that is there are two paths to becoming proficient at any under water activity and that is through a sanctioned course and through experience garnered on your own. It sounds like the instructor in question was just a little overzealous in prompting you to do the swim through.. Your course of action should be to not dive with buddies who make you feel uncomfortable.

Many many divers who wreck dive have never taken a sanctioned course, in fact many of us taught ourselves how to wreck dive, cave dive etc etc without ever taking a course and now we teach others to do that very activity.


Anyway, without having been there my simplistic response is just dont dive with people who you find make you feel uncomfortable.

BUT KEEP DIVING!!!!!!!!

 

[ktkt]

Many many divers who wreck dive have never taken a sanctioned course, in fact many of us taught ourselves how to wreck dive, cave dive etc etc without ever taking a course and now we teach others to do that very activity.

Anyway, without having been there my simplistic response is just dont dive with people who you find make you feel uncomfortable.

BUT KEEP DIVING!!!!!!!!

a) I'm okay with that, but I bet you only try to teach willing participants, and don't try to hop into a wreck at night with someone you just met. It is one thing to nudge your students into trying new things and quite another to try to get someone you just met to do what you want.

b) Working on it -- I just need a dive buddy I can tote around with me on vacation so I don't have to show up and hope for a good one! (My favorite dive shop employee here offered to come along in my checked baggage, but he didn't make the 50lb cut.)

c) You bet

 

[Bubbletrubble]

If someone tells you very explicitly before going in the water "I already told you once, and I am telling you again now to emphasize it -- I am definitely not going inside the wreck," then going over to them and trying to point/motion them in is not really an invitation. It's trying to push your dive plan onto someone else when they very clearly told you they did not want that dive plan. I have been invited to do swimthroughs before, and an invitation is a lot nicer! (So far, I have taken all those invitations, but I like to go and pause right at the opening and get a feel for how much space I have before proceeding.)

If that's how things happened, I probably would have stuck around until the 2nd offer to do the swim-through...and then I would have given him the signal that my buddy and I were going to conduct our own dive. That's when I'd give him the "goodbye" wave. Clear and unambiguous.

If he chased us down and insisted that we follow him, hounding us as we finned off, then I would have to be a little less polite. My buddies and I have a very special hand signal that we've talked about using but have never had the occasion to use.

Some people are pushy. Some people are obstinate. Some do a poor job of reading others (low EQ). Unfortunately, it sounds like the instructor had a combination of all three qualities.

 

[TMHeimer]

ktkt, I think I'm missing something here. Of course, only you and your buddy were there, but I'll take your word that you were overly
pressured into going in. It's odd the instructor would do this in light of you told him that you guys would not go in the wreck (at all, I assume). One has to ask--why would he pressure you--and more than once--to go inside? You say one of his Wreck students was with him. Why would he have any interest in you guys going in since you weren't his students? Just trying to be a nice guy and show you something new? Something is amiss.