Poor/dangerous behavior by instructor (not mine) -- what to do?

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Hi ktkt,
Make no mistake, you did everything right.
1. You did not bow to peer pressure.
2. You dived your plan BUT your buddy left you behind to follow his/her instructor.
If you ever going to dive with this buddy again, U2 should have a serious talk on "dive plan".

As for that instructor, avoid diving with him/her at all time.
 
I guess I lead a charmed life, because my experiences with divemasters and instructors has almost always been good so far. Perhaps the standard is low, though, because we often don't speak up when we should, and that is a big part of what I am trying to get at here. But this guy was no kid; I'm not sure how long he has been teaching, but he has apparently been diving since I was three.


I did a dive once, a guided wreck dive with a pretty high current. I would have been comfortable doing the dive just with my buddy, but that wasn't the way things were done here. We were on the lee side of the boat when I thumbed it, and unfortunately the mooring ball was on the windward (currentward?) side. I would have been comfortable with a free ascent, but the guide turned and ducked back into the wreck. We hopped back in to signal that we were uninterested in being inside the hull of a vessel at moderate depth with such a low amount of gas, but for whatever reason could not get his attention with our powerful light beams inside the dark wreck. We bailed, and in no way was I happy about leaving a guy inside, but we were already on borrowed gas and getting close to the edge of our reserves.

The funny thing was that I'd done many dives with this guide before, and other members of our team had been diving with this guide over a period of several years. Sometimes good people make bad decisions.

I don't care much for guided dives unless I can bring the dive guide into the dive team. I'm happy to pay for a local teammate, but I tend to ignore shepherds.
 
ktkt, I think I'm missing something here. Of course, only you and your buddy were there, but I'll take your word that you were overly
pressured into going in. It's odd the instructor would do this in light of you told him that you guys would not go in the wreck (at all, I assume). One has to ask--why would he pressure you--and more than once--to go inside? You say one of his Wreck students was with him. Why would he have any interest in you guys going in since you weren't his students? Just trying to be a nice guy and show you something new? Something is amiss.

At this point, I think all that's missing is good judgement on the instructor's part. The other divers were all from his shop, and I can only assume he wanted to show them something "cool", but went about it all wrong. I know *I* would definitely not want to be inside a wreck with someone who didn't want to be there (or put my students in that position!), so I can't really figure out what he might have been thinking.

Bubbletrubble, somehow I never remember the one finger salute in time, whether underwater or not ;p
 
Bubbletrubble, somehow I never remember the one finger salute in time, whether underwater or not ;p
I was talking about biting my thumb. :wink:
Abram, servant of the house of Montague, found the gesture quite insulting. Unfortunately, that literary incident ended rather tragically.
 
Cudos to ktkt. Like all professions, the profession of dive instructor has within its membership all levels of competence and limitless variations in style. Thank you for calling this inappropriate conduct to the attention of the dive center, who will hopefully make correction. The vast majority of instructors with all certifying agencies are competent, conscientious and pleasant. When you encounter one who is not, I hope you will continue to make an appropriate report.
DivemasterDennis
 
I always like to get both parties involved talking about an incident. The truth is generally not found by only looking at one perspective. Where was this and what was the name of the wreck? I assume this was not in CA as you indicate you were not wearing exposure protection. Knowing how deep, current, vis, etc also helps provide a frame of reference.
 
Hi ktkt,
Make no mistake, you did everything right.
1. You did not bow to peer pressure.
2. You dived your plan BUT your buddy left you behind to follow his/her instructor.
If you ever going to dive with this buddy again, U2 should have a serious talk on "dive plan".

As for that instructor, avoid diving with him/her at all time.

I have been following this post.

You did the right thing IMHO.

Any diver can call any dive for any reason.

I would take it in as a learning experience.Seasoned divers have Lots O' those.

I had a bad experience with an Instructor/shop a few years ago. A no win scenario. I voted with my wallet and switched my LDS and never looked back.

Keep diving!
 
One thing I learned years ago is to never write a letter when you are pissed off. I did that once regretted it ever since. Not saying the instructor was right in any way shape or form but it still better to cool off then handle the situation IMO.
 
One thing I learned years ago is to never write a letter when you are pissed off. I did that once regretted it ever since. Not saying the instructor was right in any way shape or form but it still better to cool off then handle the situation IMO.

There are few things other than possibly fistfights, that are properly accomplished under the influence of anger.
 
As an instructor who creates silt-outs for training in both wrecks and caves I'd be very interested in the specifics of the overhead in which the instructor chose to demonstrate silt-out conditions. There are relatively safe places to conduct such training. Perhaps the instructor was trying to encourage you to experience something that can be extremely stressful to divers in a location that is safe for such training? However, maintaining student or group control in such environments in zero visibility requires highly specialized instructional techniques and through training in touch contact and guideline deployment.

Some agencies prefer instructors to simulate zero visibility through the use of blackout masks which allow the instructor to better lifeguard a student, but this is done at the expense of allowing the student to really experience what silt is capable of doing to visibility and to experience how patience and stillness can help matters. Blackout masks make training safer, but perhaps jeopardize the diver who finds himself or herself in silt for real for the first time without a lifeguard. Real silt-outs in training make training more dangerous, but perhaps help reduce the stress of a real silt-out when it happens for the first time.

There is a saying that "the more you bleed in training, the less you die in combat," but the training environment needs to be one in which combat is less likely to occur. Make no mistake, there is no such thing as a safe dive. We kid ourselves that "safety" even exists. We can do our best to minimize the likelihood of an accident, but there are no absolutes.

While you did the right thing by saying, "No way!" since it was beyond your idea of comfort and safety, perhaps you should be flattered that the instructor thought you were diver enough to handle such an educational experience.

I can't judge the instructor's behavior based upon the information provided. Last week, I found myself in a total silt-out that was created by my cave instructor candidate 300 feet inside a low silty tunnel when he played a panicked diver on the long hose for a student. He didn't realize that his actions put me in it for real as I was behind the team and off the line. I should have been on the line in anticipation of any possible problems during their gas-sharing exit, but the tunnel was such that I couldn't get lost. I did however get stuck since the line was run through a line trap which required negotiating the problem in zero vis. The silt-out was created at the end of the day just prior to the park closing where it wouldn't impact the safety and enjoyment of others and we were 100% known to be the only team in this particular location.

After the dive, I suggested ways to make that situation safer for future training which the candidate agreed would have been better. While a highly skilled and experienced cave diver and training director for another organization, the candidate wasn't perfect. No one is perfect. But, unless the situation was truly dangerous, I wouldn't sweat the small stuff. Most instructors are out there doing their best to teach in an industry that all but blocks their efforts to learn how to teach better and safer courses. I have offered to teach instructors how to teach such things more safely, but thus far no dive center has been interested.
 
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