Poseidon Jetstream/Odin

[jjoeldm]

Odins don't freeze due to its upstream design. Additionaly, there has been no failure to date, according to US Navy, of an Odin.

I don't believe that the US Navy monitors sport or tech diving. There have been so many thousands of dives on Poseidons that they aren't aware of or even care about. Well, not because they don't care, I'm sure, but it would be impractical to collect such data. Certainly no one's ever asked ME about my dives with my Poseidons.

A more relevant point would be, what DOES happen when an upstream reg does fail?? It's not hard to figure this out, it's like math. Which is better, a reg that fails open or one that fails closed?

They don't have to be expenisve to service. You can find techs on the web that will service them for the same price as a "normal" reg. Ask Michael Rainone.

There will be many places around the world that will not have the tools or the parts to service or repair these regs and I've met a lot of unhappy Poseidon divers renting regs in faraway places, sometimes when they just crack the valve a little too fast and their Poseidons might have to be rebuilt in a place that can't rebuild them.

There is no need to run an Odin or a Cyclon's IP at 180PSI.

The Odin's IP is recommended to be set at 145 - 152, the Cyklon 5000 at 174 psi. Forgetting the Odin which fails closed, modern regs have a much lower setting from around 120 to about 140-50 at the top end than the Cyklon at 174, a ridiculous pressure. There is just no reason for the added pressure, the Poseidons are old technology. Instead of a nice even flow of air, you get that "reassuring" blast of air, but the volume is the same.

It's the same thinking with high pressure cylinders. Why? You can get the same volume in a low-pressure cylinder so WHY would you subject your regs to these high pressures?

They breathe minimally "wet" when not level. The pro side to this is that you can breathe them in any position-maybe wet, but you CAN breathe. For this reason alone, they make an excellent choice as a backup reg.

I think that's the reason why it's a terrible backup. Why add a problem? You don't know what condition a buddy will be in when you are deep or far back and with a mouth full of water, unable to breathe and fighting off panic, that "wet" breathing Poseidon might be the last straw. Do your buddy a favor, hand him a reg has good volume but that also breathes dry.

All this talk about replacing the cover on a reg. Ask Bob3 what he would use in a mucky, murky environment? Cyclon no doubt. If you want to remove the diaphram of a reg.-holding that little thing underwater, then trying to put it back in correctly-then that's fine. Here's a better idea: Bring along another Odin 2nd stage. If the first one get's dirty, don't go cleaning it. Just unscrew it and place the fresh new one on.

There was a time when the Cyklon was the regulator of choice because there really was no other choice, but today there are a LOT of good regs that don't have Poseidon's fatal flaws. I would NEVER recommend Poseidons to a budding tech diver and really, why put anyone through it?

Poseidons were the default when its faults could be accepted in exchange for the volume of gas they delivered. There is just no longer a reason for such a trade-off.

You even appear to concede each point. The Odin fails closed, the Cyklon 5000 has a much higher IP at 174 than any reg in regular service and both regs breathe a little wet. Knowing that there are regs out there that have none of these problems and that cost less to buy parts for, why would you recommend a Poseidon?

I own an Apeks TX50 and a Poseidon Odin. Both are great and I wouldn't say the Apeks is better or worse than the Odin-just different.

I would be interested in buying your Cyclon 5000, jjoelm.

Make a serious offer, I'll sell it and the Odin. Or better yet, I'll trade for your TX50.

JoeL

 

[buff]

Crap!

I just got booted off this board after making a lengthy response to each of your poor arguments concerning the Poseidon Odin or Cyklon 5000.

I'll let Michael Rainone respond. He knows the U.S. Navy much better than I do(worked on the Navy's regs. for years) and he is a much faster typist.

Mike

 

[Lost Yooper]

Bob3 just had his Cyclone (I believe) freeze up on him (very cold water). They're not impervious to freezing, but it's tough to do. IMO, the extreme cold waters is where they shine. Other than that, yuck .

Mike

 

[jjoeldm]

Originally posted by buff
Crap!

I just got booted off this board after making a lengthy response to each of your poor arguments concerning the Poseidon Odin or Cyklon 5000.

I'll let Michael Rainone respond. He knows the U.S. Navy much better than I do(worked on the Navy's regs. for years) and he is a much faster typist.

Mike

Mike,

For long-winded rebuttals I find that using an offline text editor works best. Cut-and-paste it over there, make your edits, then cut-and-paste it back in, correct the formatting and you're ready to smack whoever you feel needs it!

I look forward to having my logic shot full of holes.

JoeL

 

[Bob3]

Logic???

There's nothing LOGICAL about not liking Poseidon regs, its only a personal preference thing.
All the arguments against them are sort of pointless with the exception of the price gouging thing on parts. Now that Viking s the new distributor, there are parts available at a fraction of the "old" cost.

Hey, the Apeks are still nice regs, even if they've had a couple of recalls in the past year.
:mean:

 

[jjoeldm]

Originally posted by Bob3
Logic???

There's nothing LOGICAL about not liking Poseidon regs, its only a personal preference thing.
All the arguments against them are sort of pointless with the exception of the price gouging thing on parts. Now that Viking s the new distributor, there are parts available at a fraction of the "old" cost.

Hey, the Apeks are still nice regs, even if they've had a couple of recalls in the past year.
:mean:

Bob,

I think you'd actually have to rebut the logic before I could comment.

JoeL

 

[Bob3]

OK, but I have to actually get some WORK done here first.;-0 (sorry for the 4-letter word)
Put on yer Kevlar & Nomex!:mean:

 

[jjoeldm]

Originally posted by Bob3
OK, but I have to actually get some WORK done here first.;-0 (sorry for the 4-letter word)
Put on yer Kevlar & Nomex!:mean:

Bob,

It's a plan. You work, I'll put my feet up and await your wisdom.

JoeL

 

[buff]

Want your “logic” shot full of holes? Here’s comes my shotgun.

Failure of upstream design:
According to the regulator technicians for the U.S. Navy(Michael Rainone) who both maintained and tracked performance of the Navy’s regulators there has never been a failure of a Poseidon Odin. The Navy does not track or maintain records on civilian diving, however, with its thousand and thousand of dives per year the U.S. Navy has created a significant volume of data on which to base their confidence in this design. This doesn’t mean a failure won’t happen but that it is extremely improbable.

“Sometimes when they just have to crack the valve a little too fast and their Poseidon’s might have to be rebuilt in a place that can’t rebuild them”. Rebuilding a reg. cause you just opened up the valve too fast?..are you just making this one up?” Well, I can’t imagine all the kind of trouble you can get into if your reg. isn’t serviced correctly to begin with. And I can imagine there are many poor techs out there. But I have “cracked the valve fast” on my Odin many times and never had a problem. I have adjusted the diaphram and it isn’t a major production and I’m not a technician. The design of the Cyklon and Odin are virtually maintenance free-just ask techs. Can the setup of the design be a little sensitive to adjust? YES, but that doesn’t make it a failure prone design.

Expense of the Poseidon’s to service:
Bob3 has real world experience here-and so do I. You can pay a lot of money to service ANY regulator-if you want to. Michael Rainone serviced my Poseidon for what it cost me to get my Apeks TX50 serviced. In addition, I communicated with many Poseidon reg. techs and they all charge about the same as it would cost to service a lesser reg. And with the new distributors for Poseidon in the U.S. parts should be cheaper than ever.

High I.P.s
You can set the Cyklon’s IP to 145 with no real loss of gas delivery. What is the great concern over a high IP? Mechanical failure? The Cyklon is built to handle that pressure. Barotrauma from a free flowing reg? Pulmonary barotrauma can occur with pressures as high as just 60PSI. You will have barotrauma at 120, or 145, or 175 PSI. With regards to the particular flow curve of reg. that’s a personal preference if you like it or not-it’s that and only that-personal preference.

Breathing “on the level”
Yes, you can get a wet breathe from a Poseidon reg. but it isn’t the “mouthful of water” as described. You can breathe a Poseidon from any position and I would think that for this reason alone it would be a rescue diver’s reg. of choice. It may breathe a little moist but it does breathe in ANY position. When was the last time you had to rescue someone in flat, horizontal position? I can see it now. Trying to signal to your buddy, “No, you can’t be in that position” “You must be horizontal, with your head not tilted to breathe-stop doing that!!” I wouldn’t care if my the reg. saving my life was a little wet - only that I could breathe from it and there are many fine breathing regs out there today that can only breathe in a level plane. Those regs might breathe well for deco bottles or primary regs but not in the awkward breathing positions of buddy breathing or rescue diving.

I agree that there are many more fine choices for regs out there today. I believe that the Poseidon Cyklon and Odin are two of them-not the only ones but two of the many. I own an Apeks TX50 and it’s just as nice as my Odin but it’s different-but only slightly-come on it’s a regulator!!. This whole hate of Poseidon came about with the DIR phenomenon-many of their concepts I like, but this irrational dislike of Poseidon isn’t one of them. I bought my Odin for the simple reason that they are the best cold/ice water reg. made. Now I see that you’re in Atlanta and you probably don’t do a lot of that down there so that wouldn’t be of concern to you-not a lot of regs freeze up in Florida. The right tool for the right job.
I would buy those regs from you but I have 3 regs already. If you think they are such bad regs then destroy them so that no one else ever falls into Poseidon’s deadly trap! Don’t put your fellow divers at risk by selling them. Is it that you don’t care about putting a diver at risk or that they really aren’t that bad of regulator and what it all comes down to is just what Bob3 said “It’s personal preference”?

You were right that this cut and paste thing works better. Thanks for the idea.

Mike

 

[jjoeldm]

Quoting Mike in BOLD text:

Failure of upstream design:
According to the regulator technicians for the U.S. Navy(Michael Rainone) who both maintained and tracked performance of the Navy’s regulators there has never been a failure of a Poseidon Odin. The Navy does not track or maintain records on civilian diving, however, with its thousand and thousand of dives per year the U.S. Navy has created a significant volume of data on which to base their confidence in this design. This doesn’t mean a failure won’t happen but that it is extremely improbable.

I think you already gave the answer. IF your regs are serviced by US Navy technicians and maintained under their strict regimen and I'm SURE checked and serviced far more often a rec or tek diver's reg, yes, you might have a good service record, but as you say, "the Navy does not track or maintain records on civilian diving," so this has no relevance for this discussion about the real world, except that under ideal servicing conditions they work.

“Sometimes when they just have to crack the valve a little too fast and their Poseidon’s might have to be rebuilt in a place that can’t rebuild them”. Rebuilding a reg. cause you just opened up the valve too fast?..are you just making this one up?” Well, I can’t imagine all the kind of trouble you can get into if your reg. isn’t serviced correctly to begin with. And I can imagine there are many poor techs out there. But I have “cracked the valve fast” on my Odin many times and never had a problem. I have adjusted the diaphram and it isn’t a major production and I’m not a technician. The design of the Cyklon and Odin are virtually maintenance free-just ask techs. Can the setup of the design be a little sensitive to adjust? YES, but that doesn’t make it a failure prone design.

Cracking the valve too fast will result in the seat getting slammed -- this is elementary regulator stuff. If you're cracking your valve too fast "many times" then maybe you were not taught to care properly for your life-support equipment or maybe you've forgotten and been very lucky. The Poseidon seats are notoriously problematic in the real world. This discussion doesn't get held over-and-over on every list because Poseidons are trouble-free, it's discussed because there IS an issue.

Expense of the Poseidon’s to service:
Bob3 has real world experience here-and so do I. You can pay a lot of money to service ANY regulator-if you want to. Michael Rainone serviced my Poseidon for what it cost me to get my Apeks TX50 serviced. In addition, I communicated with many Poseidon reg. techs and they all charge about the same as it would cost to service a lesser reg. And with the new distributors for Poseidon in the U.S. parts should be cheaper than ever.

Others have maintained that Poseidons are expensive to maintain. That was not my primary point here. My point is that all Poseidon hoses and fittings are proprietary and thus expensive. Any new diver should know that. I didn't when I bought mine and found out not only that a Cyklon requires a Poseidon-only long hose, but that the Odin requires a totally DIFFERENT proprietary hose/long hose. That adds a lot to cost -- a hundred bucks (in 1994) a pop. And you didn't address at all the reality of service of your Poseidons around the world. Many more dive operations cannot and will not service a Poseidon than other regs for two reasons: they are touchy (as you admit) to tune and require special tools that are totally different than other regs' toolsets. My experience in places that SHOULD service Poseidons (Akumal) was just the same.

High I.P.s
You can set the Cyklon’s IP to 145 with no real loss of gas delivery. What is the great concern over a high IP? Mechanical failure? The Cyklon is built to handle that pressure. Barotrauma from a free flowing reg? Pulmonary barotrauma can occur with pressures as high as just 60PSI. You will have barotrauma at 120, or 145, or 175 PSI. With regards to the particular flow curve of reg. that’s a personal preference if you like it or not-it’s that and only that-personal preference.

Sorry, but BS. I HAVE set a Cyklon to 150 and it breathed like a piece of crap. There is a REASON that Cyklons come from the factory set at 180+ PSI and that they recommend that they be set this high. It's because they don't WORK lower. If they did, why would they set it this high? It's an inherent reality of their pilot valve system, it's simple physics.

Breathing “on the level”
Yes, you can get a wet breathe from a Poseidon reg. but it isn’t the “mouthful of water” as described. You can breathe a Poseidon from any position and I would think that for this reason alone it would be a rescue diver’s reg. of choice. It may breathe a little moist but it does breathe in ANY position. When was the last time you had to rescue someone in flat, horizontal position? I can see it now. Trying to signal to your buddy, “No, you can’t be in that position” “You must be horizontal, with your head not tilted to breathe-stop doing that!!” I wouldn’t care if my the reg. saving my life was a little wet - only that I could breathe from it and there are many fine breathing regs out there today that can only breathe in a level plane. Those regs might breathe well for deco bottles or primary regs but not in the awkward breathing positions of buddy breathing or rescue diving.

But the issue is not whether you CARE but if you are in fact, saved, when you're panicky, swallowing water and choking when you grab that reg. The problem with the Poseidons is the side position of the shower-head design. If you try to hand it off and purge it you have to have your head slighty tilted to get it dry. If it's not, it will still be partially full of water and breathe wet. Think back to your snorkeling days. If your snorkel had even a little water, but was enough to close the tube AND YOU DIDN'T HAVE A FULL BREATH, it can be a problem, you'd probably have to surface to clear it. Same here, if you hand off any reg it will be wet, but most regs clear from the top down, just like a mask. Poseidons don't and therefore require the head-tilt to clear. In an emergency that could be a problem. If you are choosing regs based on the possibility that you MIGHT be upside down when needing air . . . well. You're a better man than I.

I agree that there are many more fine choices for regs out there today. I believe that the Poseidon Cyklon and Odin are two of them-not the only ones but two of the many. I own an Apeks TX50 and it’s just as nice as my Odin but it’s different-but only slightly-come on it’s a regulator!!. This whole hate of Poseidon came about with the DIR phenomenon-many of their concepts I like, but this irrational dislike of Poseidon isn’t one of them. I bought my Odin for the simple reason that they are the best cold/ice water reg. made. Now I see that you’re in Atlanta and you probably don’t do a lot of that down there so that wouldn’t be of concern to you-not a lot of regs freeze up in Florida. The right tool for the right job.
I would buy those regs from you but I have 3 regs already. If you think they are such bad regs then destroy them so that no one else ever falls into Poseidon’s deadly trap! Don’t put your fellow divers at risk by selling them. Is it that you don’t care about putting a diver at risk or that they really aren’t that bad of regulator and what it all comes down to is just what Bob3 said “It’s personal preference”?

This has nothing whatsoever to do with DIR as far as I'm concerned. This comes from owning an Odin and a Cyklon 5000 for about 8-10 years, give or take. It also comes from some very good tech divers knowing exactly how regs work and are engineered and then taking a hard look at each piece of gear, how it works, how it fits into the whole and how it is used and maintained. That part at least is DIR. Each device you use has a strictly defined purpose. And using a piece of equipment that is as touchy, proprietary and as problematic as the Poseidon regs does clearly not fit within these parameters.

There was a time when owning Poseidons said you were at the top of the heap, gear-wise or that you were a tekkie, a distinction that wasn't lost on a lot of divers who didn't understand the design and physics of the regs, but who understood the cachet. I think there are a lot of Poseidon die-hards who bought these regs based on another Poseidon die-hard's advice and now want to believe that they have made the best choice. I know, I've been there. Poseidons do work, but they are a high-performance pre-Ford Jaguar compared to the modern, easy to maintain and powerful Lexus or Mercedes or NEW Jag. Sure, there are people who think those Jags that had to be tuned every other block were cool in part because they weren't made by FORD but the reality is that the new Jags are better cars. Same with regulators. What was once a great reg in its time is now dated. But the mystique surrounding these tools has kept diver buying them year-after-year.

If you love your Poseidons and they work for you, that is what is most important. My purpose here is not to criticize anyone for using Poseidons, but to warn new tech and OW divers about choosing equipment carefully and taking everything into consideration: ease of use, cost of accessories, parts and maintenance, ability to get service, problems with design (high IP) and safety.

Why buy a touchy, costly, decade-old design, no matter how nicely it's machined and finished, when there are regs out there that breathe as well if not better and don't have the drawbacks? There is a lot to be said for simplicity of design and Poseidons are anything but.

You were right that this cut and paste thing works better. Thanks for the idea.

De Nada,

JoeL