Recovery diver dead, two others injured searching for body - North Carolina

[lowviz]

In other words, as opposed what people seemed to be thinking earlier in the thread, the process is far more complicated than it seems. Without the FFM, doing from an empty tank to a pony is a very simple process of dropping a regulator out of the mouth and inserting a new one. People were wondering how a mask flood could have happened during that process. If it is a FFM, a mask flood is a required step in a procedure that goes well beyond what is done in a beginning dive class. ...//...

I have to agree with that, but first a disclaimer. I have never done a real recovery. I have, however, trained with TeamLGS and hold certs for FFM, Blackwater, Search and Rescue/Recovery in both ‘normal’ conditions and under the ice.

My observations:

An FFM is a wonderful device that one really doesn’t want to remove. Yanking one off is quite a shock *personal experience*. Your entire face is bathed in air, never fogs, it almost never leaks water inward as it is a positive pressure mask. An FFM leak is typically an air leak out. You are completely isolated from the water and secretly want to remain that way.

Our ‘deconditioning’ training consisted of lying on one’s back (approximating entanglement), removing the FFM, getting onto the pony, and waiting for that golden line pull that signaled you made it to within the required ‘non-panic’ breathing rate (with water running down your nose). I think it was around 14-16 breaths per minute. When you finally got the ‘OK’ from your line tender, you don your standard mask and clear it. Signal ‘OK’ back and you can turn over and ascend.

I’ll stop here, but everything that agency teaches is meant to overcome one’s very last resort, panic.

 

[KeithG]

ERDI Home | SDI | TDI | ERDI

So training is "available" ( i also found a padi PSD course).

Is it required? Or just recommended?

Locally i found Underwater Search and Recovery Unit

The Dive Unit must follow the regulations set out under the Canadian Standards Association, among other Acts, and as such is required to follow the regulations set out for Commercial Divers. The Dive Unit has the ability to conduct diving operations using either S.C.U.B.A. equipment or Surface Supply equipment and conducts training and operational dives year round in bodies of water ranging from lakes and rivers to drainage ditches and stagnant swamps.​

 

[tbzep]

In other words, as opposed what people seemed to be thinking earlier in the thread, the process is far more complicated than it seems. Without the FFM, going from an empty tank to a pony is a very simple process of dropping a regulator out of the mouth and inserting a new one. People were wondering how a mask flood could have happened during that process. If it is a FFM, a mask flood is a required step in a procedure that goes well beyond what is done in a beginning dive class.

In addition, the article said that the diver was recalled to the surface by a monitor on the boat for an unnamed reason. We then learned that in normal procedures, the monitor keeps track of gas pressures for the divers. If so, the monitor might have noticed the rate at which the diver was going through air and recalled him because of the rapidly depleting gas supply.

I wouldn't call it complicated, but I do practice it. However, it isn't quite as easy and quick as popping out a normal reg and popping in another one. Digging a spare mask out of your pocket and putting it on is the time consuming part. If you are a couple thermoclines down in fresh water, you also get that sudden hit of cold water that sometimes feels like an ice pick in your head, though I believe his issue took place at 20 ft so the water wouldn't have been that cold for him.

As for mask flooding, it was my understanding that the diver that perished was OOA only, and the mask flooding was with the other two as they tried to assist. If the 2nd and 3rd divers were wearing FFM's that were in good operating order and were worn correctly, they wouldn't just get a flooded mask, even if if the masks got whacked a time or two. To practice flooded mask skills you pretty much have to loosen the straps and pull the thing away from your face. At least that's been my experience with the Guardian (which I am issued) and AGA (Interspiro Divators) to a lesser extent because they were provided by the instructors along with a comm system for my initial training. It is 2nd and 3rd divers' flooding issues that have me a bit confused on mask type.

 

[JohnnyC]

Spoken like someone whos never done an underwater recovery.

You'd be wrong.

It's a ridiculously high RMV for someone who is supposed to be a trained PSD in control of their faculties. If we assume an AL80, arguably the most widely used tank in the world, that's an RMV of 79 L/min. That's not "hard labor" level, that's panic level.

 

[ReefGuy]

You'd be wrong.

Not the first time I've been accused of being wrong here, and wouldn't be the first time if I was. Last time I was told I was wrong here, however, my analysis was backed by the results of the investigation. Lets see where this one goes.

 

[boulderjohn]

As for mask flooding, it was my understanding that the diver that perished was OOA only, and the mask flooding was with the other two as they tried to assist.

No, the OOA diver flooded as well. A third diver (second rescuer) also had a flooded mask, but that happened much later. Here is the relevant part of the story:

At that point, Poteat said, Long gave an indication that he was out of air. The second diver tried to help, and at some point, the masks of both divers came off, which caused the second diver to ascend too quickly, he said.

When he reached the surface, a rescue diver on the surface then descended to try to rescue Long, Campbell said.

Long descended to the bottom, back to a depth of about 82 feet, Poteat said.

When the third diver reached the bottom, he was in the process of maneuvering Long to get him to the surface when he experienced issues with his mask, Campbell said.

Jenkins explained the third diver’s mask began taking on water and he was unable to clear it. The pressure on his mask increased the further he dove, Jenkins said. That prompted the third diver to ascend quickly. Both he and the other diver were taken to the hospital for treatment.

Poteat said there was some indication that Long and the other diver attempted to use a regulator to access a secondary, smaller tank, called a pony tank. “It all happened so quickly,” he said, that they were unable to get a grip on the regulators.​

From this description, I assume that Long descended to 82 feet because he was unconscious following the initial problem when his mask flooded while trying to access the pony bottle. Long's flooding could be part of the process of removing the FFM to get to the only bottle, but why would the rescuer also have a flooded mask? This is speculation, but if Long panicked while OOA, that could account for it.

 

[tbzep]

but why would the rescuer also have a flooded mask?

That's what I'm wondering. I have to pull my Guardian mask away from my face to make it flood and I have never experienced squeeze with it. I'd like to know what gear they used and if they were FFMs, I'd like more detail of the circumstances that caused flood or squeeze. It isn't to point fingers. It's because I don't want the same thing to happen to me or anyone else doing PS diving.

 

[rkinder]

Before reading this post please understand where I am coming from. Background, I have served as an officer of a PSD dive team for 20 years, as well as an officer for 16 years in a specialized high angle swift water team. My first recovery was in 1977, with more than 100 victims recovered in many different conditions and depths. I am a commercial diving supervisor, a PADI MSDT, and a Public Safety Dive instructor for another agency. What I am about to write is not an attack on Captain Long or the department.

As to the death of Captain Long, I attended his funeral out of respect for a fellow PSD. While there I learned he received PADI PSD training and that the instructor is part of their team. I can’t comment on the training or on just how good a diver he was. My feelings are that the department tried to provide proper training to it’s members. As to on going training to perfect PSD skills I have no idea. On the other hand other area departments held them in high regard. The dive profile and conditions of the dive based on available information would be considered to be an advanced dive for most PSD divers. I can’t argue that the diver or the team was not fully prepared to perform this mission in that a number of problems occurred. Both with comm lines and full face masks, and redundant air. My general impression is that Out of Air in Full Face Mask had not been perfected. As to air use it is not unexpected when conditions are marginal and experience has not developed to a level of comfort. Three months ago I witnessed a new PSD go from 3000 to 800 psi in 12 min. their movements where not panicked, the diver maintained good buoyancy control but their respiratory rate was extremely rapid. It was their first dive out of open water in a different environment. This diver was taught by another instructor and agency as he gained experience he became much more efficient and continues to improve. This is the case for many of our PSD divers.

Membership in Public Safety Dive Teams varies across the country, in 24 states OSHA has no control over Government employees, in the other 26 states enforcement of the commercial diving standards is to varying degrees. With training enforced less than any other part of the standard. Most PSD’s have very few dives, generally less than 25, many have no certification above Open Water with no real PSD training. This is common in both paid and volunteer departments. In some cases the instructor has no real world recoveries or missions prior to becoming a PSD instructor.

To complicate matters teams often advance for many years and then changes of management/leadership undercut standards that exclude divers that should not be performing PSD missions. Often an officer will receive a call from admin. demanding an explanation as to why an officer did not allow (John Doe) to dive after all they are certified it does not matter that it has been 3 years since they made a dive. And eventually that officer that is holding the departments divers to high standards is replace or reassigned.

I do not think this is the case for Capt. Long's team in that those I met complemented the team and their management for improving the team, however, I do feel that they did not have enough experience based on known conditions to perform this mission. I hope that Captain Long’s death will not be in vane and can be a lesson to all Public Safety Divers to constantly improve their skills by diving and advancing their skills after each class. Which is another part of the problem a class is attended but what is learned is rarely perfected. To all PSD’s reading this post please dive and constantly improve your skill set to ensure a safe return to your family. And ask yourself and others on your team is there any reason you can’t make this dive. If they have any doubts please don’t let them dive. If you have any doubts please don’t dive.

In closing I can’t tell you how many divers felt I was an ******* for not seeing them as fully competent after just 15 to 25 dives. To the ones that made it to 200 dives with mentoring they began to understand that when they first arrived they just did not know what they did not know. This is a cold unforgiving world full of many hazards, with the penalty of death should you make a wrong decision.

Sincerely,


Bob Kinder

 

[Resqdivemedic]

Bob, well said. I have been a PSD for over 16 years with 12 or so recoveries made. You hit the nail on the head about improving and advancing skills. We just made a recovery 2 weeks ago in a local reservoir. Another local team had arrived at the scene just about when my team did.They had just received their PSD training last year. Come to find out they never did any additional training after the class. It showed. My team located the body within 2 minutes then bagged it underwater in zero vis with no issues. Even the chief of the department who called us said that this other team was just there to watch. Our team trains once a month in different bodies of water, at different depths, and using different scenarios. I think they realized their short comings after seeing our team in action and now want to train with us.
Its an unfortunate tragedy and I send my deepest sympathies to the Captains family and department. But, we tend to learn from these incidents and become better, and safer in the process. Training pays off.

 

[BinkyT]

Before reading this post please understand where I am coming from. Background, I have served as an officer of a PSD dive team for 20 years, as well as an officer for 16 years in a specialized high angle swift water team. My first recovery was in 1977, with more than 100 victims recovered in many different conditions and depths. I am a commercial diving supervisor, a PADI MSDT, and a Public Safety Dive instructor for another agency. What I am about to write is not an attack on Captain Long or the department.

As to the death of Captain Long, I attended his funeral out of respect for a fellow PSD. While there I learned he received PADI PSD training and that the instructor is part of their team. I can’t comment on the training or on just how good a diver he was. My feelings are that the department tried to provide proper training to it’s members. As to on going training to perfect PSD skills I have no idea. On the other hand other area departments held them in high regard. The dive profile and conditions of the dive based on available information would be considered to be an advanced dive for most PSD divers. I can’t argue that the diver or the team was not fully prepared to perform this mission in that a number of problems occurred. Both with comm lines and full face masks, and redundant air. My general impression is that Out of Air in Full Face Mask had not been perfected. As to air use it is not unexpected when conditions are marginal and experience has not developed to a level of comfort. Three months ago I witnessed a new PSD go from 3000 to 800 psi in 12 min. their movements where not panicked, the diver maintained good buoyancy control but their respiratory rate was extremely rapid. It was their first dive out of open water in a different environment. This diver was taught by another instructor and agency as he gained experience he became much more efficient and continues to improve. This is the case for many of our PSD divers.

Membership in Public Safety Dive Teams varies across the country, in 24 states OSHA has no control over Government employees, in the other 26 states enforcement of the commercial diving standards is to varying degrees. With training enforced less than any other part of the standard. Most PSD’s have very few dives, generally less than 25, many have no certification above Open Water with no real PSD training. This is common in both paid and volunteer departments. In some cases the instructor has no real world recoveries or missions prior to becoming a PSD instructor.

To complicate matters teams often advance for many years and then changes of management/leadership undercut standards that exclude divers that should not be performing PSD missions. Often an officer will receive a call from admin. demanding an explanation as to why an officer did not allow (John Doe) to dive after all they are certified it does not matter that it has been 3 years since they made a dive. And eventually that officer that is holding the departments divers to high standards is replace or reassigned.

I do not think this is the case for Capt. Long's team in that those I met complemented the team and their management for improving the team, however, I do feel that they did not have enough experience based on known conditions to perform this mission. I hope that Captain Long’s death will not be in vane and can be a lesson to all Public Safety Divers to constantly improve their skills by diving and advancing their skills after each class. Which is another part of the problem a class is attended but what is learned is rarely perfected. To all PSD’s reading this post please dive and constantly improve your skill set to ensure a safe return to your family. And ask yourself and others on your team is there any reason you can’t make this dive. If they have any doubts please don’t let them dive. If you have any doubts please don’t dive.

In closing I can’t tell you how many divers felt I was an ******* for not seeing them as fully competent after just 15 to 25 dives. To the ones that made it to 200 dives with mentoring they began to understand that when they first arrived they just did not know what they did not know. This is a cold unforgiving world full of many hazards, with the penalty of death should you make a wrong decision.

Sincerely,


Bob Kinder

Thank you Bob for attending this diver's funeral and thank you for sharing your many years experience and you perspective to help others learn for this terrible event.