In my case I dive near the kelp beds, and on the surrounding areas. The value is not getting my head cut off by a cruising jet ski or fishing boat. Large or small vessel can do alot of damage to ones head. I think logic plays a part in the emphasis on value on this one. Just because we have been accustomed to doing things a certain way over time does not necessarily make it a safe practice. It just means an incident has not presented its self and my point is by looking at the potential and not ignoring it would be a wise move on my part. I wanted others to know this and do feel strongly about sending out this message.
Shouldn't DSMB be required as part of training?
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In my case I dive near the kelp beds, and on the surrounding areas. The value is not getting my head cut off by a cruising jet ski or fishing boat. Large or small vessel can do alot of damage to ones head. I think logic plays a part in the emphasis on value on this one. Just because we have been accustomed to doing things a certain way over time does not necessarily make it a safe practice. It just means an incident has not presented its self and my point is by looking at the potential and not ignoring it would be a wise move on my part. I wanted others to know this and do feel strongly about sending out this message.
I don't think that anyone denies that DSMB are a useful tool. Continuing education is essential in diver development, obviously additional skills are added to a diver's toolbox. I agree with the others that most new divers would be too over tasked to add deploying a DSMB from 20 feet, I see this adding too many uncontrollable ascents during OW classes if this were implemented.
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per response in the other thread, this is a region specific requirement and as such can't be mandated by any of the agencies. Not sure who said it was in PADI, but it's not a requirement in their basic OW curriculum, nor should it be, they aren't useful in most diving situations.
In your situation, if you were in FL for example, you would be required by law, with very harsh punishments, to tow a dive flag of a certain size for your whole dive. Why would you send a dsmb when you are towing a dive flag? No point
If you are diving off of a boat in NC, Caribbean, etc, you would ascent up the anchor line, and if a dsmb was to be sent, the DM would shoot it because only one for the group has to be shot.
OW classes are so short they don't teach proper buoyancy, trim, propulsion, weighting, etc etc. You have most divers not being truly comfortable performing simple tasks like mask removal and replacement while hovering, you can't expect them to inflate a marker buoy and shoot it to the surface without bringing them with it. It's just not realistic. In your situation this is where the mentor style of coned is especially important, you need to have experienced divers in the area exposing new divers to these skills and working with them, not something that needs to be taught in an hour at a class, it can't be done in that short of a time period.
Similar region specific skills are taught in that fashion depending on where you are located. DSMB's are not important enough in most diving situations to require a skill like that to be taught at that early of a level.
In your situation, if you were in FL for example, you would be required by law, with very harsh punishments, to tow a dive flag of a certain size for your whole dive. Why would you send a dsmb when you are towing a dive flag? No point
If you are diving off of a boat in NC, Caribbean, etc, you would ascent up the anchor line, and if a dsmb was to be sent, the DM would shoot it because only one for the group has to be shot.
OW classes are so short they don't teach proper buoyancy, trim, propulsion, weighting, etc etc. You have most divers not being truly comfortable performing simple tasks like mask removal and replacement while hovering, you can't expect them to inflate a marker buoy and shoot it to the surface without bringing them with it. It's just not realistic. In your situation this is where the mentor style of coned is especially important, you need to have experienced divers in the area exposing new divers to these skills and working with them, not something that needs to be taught in an hour at a class, it can't be done in that short of a time period.
Similar region specific skills are taught in that fashion depending on where you are located. DSMB's are not important enough in most diving situations to require a skill like that to be taught at that early of a level.
I now teach the dsmb in my ow classes. In low vis situations that are common around here there are times when you can't use the bottom or the surface as a visual reference. Shooting a dsmb as a team encourages and reinforces good buddy skills.
One person inflates the bag while the other holds the reel or spool. Once the bag is inflated and on the surface the buddies now have a visual and tactile reference should they miss the upline. I teach a workshop to give divers the skills and knowledge to do it safely. It's not hard and well within the capabilities of a well trained ow diver.
Can you do it in one of the one or two weekend, 6 hours in the pool courses? Probably not. But then those people are often barely competent to go to ow. It takes a half hour or so to teach to someone in the pool. Then they get to practice.
I use a 36 inch model that I sell. It has maybe 10lbs of lift at the surface fully inflated. The chance of it dragging someone to the surface like some of the larger ones are capable of is greatly reduced. You can swim it down. We deploy and pull it back down again without much effort.
It provides a line to the surface. Once you get up if you need to you can deploy the larger one.
It's also just a fun thing to do that demonstrates Boyles law, provides a task loading exercise that is actually useful, and is easy to learn. I have 7 and 8 yr old snorkeling and skin diving students deploying the little ones in the deep end of the pool with little effort.
One person inflates the bag while the other holds the reel or spool. Once the bag is inflated and on the surface the buddies now have a visual and tactile reference should they miss the upline. I teach a workshop to give divers the skills and knowledge to do it safely. It's not hard and well within the capabilities of a well trained ow diver.
Can you do it in one of the one or two weekend, 6 hours in the pool courses? Probably not. But then those people are often barely competent to go to ow. It takes a half hour or so to teach to someone in the pool. Then they get to practice.
I use a 36 inch model that I sell. It has maybe 10lbs of lift at the surface fully inflated. The chance of it dragging someone to the surface like some of the larger ones are capable of is greatly reduced. You can swim it down. We deploy and pull it back down again without much effort.
It provides a line to the surface. Once you get up if you need to you can deploy the larger one.
It's also just a fun thing to do that demonstrates Boyles law, provides a task loading exercise that is actually useful, and is easy to learn. I have 7 and 8 yr old snorkeling and skin diving students deploying the little ones in the deep end of the pool with little effort.
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SMB is different than DSMB, when did it go away from a distinctive specialty or something in the deep diver course? I can accept SMB use, but I would love to watch the hilarity that will ensue when the vast majority of PADI OW instructors I know try to shoot a DSMB. Using an SMB is easy as cake, and that's an important skill because it's the law in quite a few states in this country, but unless you can copy the standard that says where DSMB use is taught, I'm skeptical.
I would literally pay the price of an OW course to go watch a new PADI Instructor try to demonstrate DSMB deployment and watch them try to get their students to do it, it would be worth that much. I call complete and utter bullsh!t. Dive flag use is 100% different from this and unless you can post the standard where it says DSMB use is required, I won't believe it.
PADI Open Water skill requirement:
That is the last standard I saw, I have only ever seen surface tubes, have never seen an instructor actually teach the DSMB. Not saying it doesn't happen Jim is proof, but deploying one at the surface rather defeats the point in my opinion.
I would literally pay the price of an OW course to go watch a new PADI Instructor try to demonstrate DSMB deployment and watch them try to get their students to do it, it would be worth that much. I call complete and utter bullsh!t. Dive flag use is 100% different from this and unless you can post the standard where it says DSMB use is required, I won't believe it.
PADI Open Water skill requirement:
- Inflatable Signal Tube Use — Deploy an inflatable signal tube at the surface, or deploy a delayed surface marker buoy (DSMB) from underwater.
That is the last standard I saw, I have only ever seen surface tubes, have never seen an instructor actually teach the DSMB. Not saying it doesn't happen Jim is proof, but deploying one at the surface rather defeats the point in my opinion.
It's either or.
there still is a distinctive specialty for it, but I don't teach it since I think it's a waste of a course.
OW students can learn to deploy an SMB underwater. It's not THAT hard of a skill. But I do go case by case on deciding to teach it on the surface or underwater.
In my AOW courses it's mandatory for all dives and every course I teach after that too.
---------- Post added May 7th, 2015 at 03:14 PM ----------
You copied the standard yourself. SMB or DSMB use is required for the course. It's in the course.
there still is a distinctive specialty for it, but I don't teach it since I think it's a waste of a course.
OW students can learn to deploy an SMB underwater. It's not THAT hard of a skill. But I do go case by case on deciding to teach it on the surface or underwater.
In my AOW courses it's mandatory for all dives and every course I teach after that too.
---------- Post added May 7th, 2015 at 03:14 PM ----------
You copied the standard yourself. SMB or DSMB use is required for the course. It's in the course.
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we aren't talking about SMB's, we are specifically talking about DSMB's due to the OP being in kelp forests where towing isn't an option. I think the surface use is pretty important, and I'm glad PADI opened up the option for DSMB use for those areas where surfacing isn't safe, but it is important to differentiate because shooting a SMB couldn't be any simpler, DSMB use is difficult to execute properly, especially in blue water, and in a normal PADI dive shop course I would love to see them try.
Can we clear up that an smb and dsmb is the same thing. What we are really discussing is when it's deployed. PADI requires either or.
Enough with the PADI OW class bashing. I'm so tired of hearing it. Open water students can be great divers, and they don't know skills are hard unless you tell them.
Enough with the PADI OW class bashing. I'm so tired of hearing it. Open water students can be great divers, and they don't know skills are hard unless you tell them.
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they're not the same thing though.
Essentially 3 marking devices
SMB's, you tow these, dive flags, etc. but can also be safety sausages that are towed throughout the duration of the dive.
DSMB's, you shoot them from depth to mark position prior to surfacing
Safety Sausages, essentially the same as DSMB's, but the difference is that DSMB's will usually be closed with an OPV vs. either an open bottom, or a closed design for surface use only.
Now, here is the VERY important difference. SMB's are used to mark your position to local traffic. DSMB's are generally to mark your position on your safety stop because you are deep enough where overhead traffic is irrelevant during the dive, but now you need the surface to know you are within striking range or whatever else you are signaling. Neither of these have to be enormous, just big enough to make people aware of your position, 1m for DSMB's is common, SMB's can be smaller, 12x12 is minimum size for the flag in Florida so most are that size, and with the buoy and mast, they are usually between .5 and 1m tall. Safety Sausages are what is VERY important that ALL ocean divers need to have and be proficient at using and what I believe PADI is emphasizing in their current course. These are the ones you use when you need to be found. I'd argue that we might be arguing semantics, but it's still a difference. My SMB is different than my safety sausage, and those are different than my DSMB. If I am towing my SMB, I don't carry a DSMB, but the safety sausage stays with me.
DSMB is a DSS 1m, so it's pretty useless as a safety sausage. It is only 1m tall, it isn't that big, and while it has reflective tape on it which helps, it just isn't tall enough for Carolinas diving where the seas may be 1m or more.
https://www.deepseasupply.com/index.php?product=85
SMB is on order, it's the Mako tow float deal, pretty slick unit if you aren't flying to your destination since it can be used as a surface flotation device which is super convenient. They also have an inflatable one which is pretty slick as well
Hawaiian Hard Float | MAKO Spearguns
Safety Sausage is a Hog 72" deally
Cave Adventurers - hog safety sausage - Marianna, Florida USA - Never Undersold!
Yes this can serve double duty as a DSMB because it has an OPV, but the DSS one is much smaller profile, and is easier to carry in travel. The 72" is also a bit overkill for Caribbean type diving where the waves are pretty calm. I would choose this due to cost/performance, if I had to choose one since it can perform double duty, and is a closed design with something like 20+lbs of lift so you can hug it if you have to ditch your rig in an emergency. My Hog is in Yellow for better night visibility, vs. the DSS in Orange for day time viz.
Essentially 3 marking devices
SMB's, you tow these, dive flags, etc. but can also be safety sausages that are towed throughout the duration of the dive.
DSMB's, you shoot them from depth to mark position prior to surfacing
Safety Sausages, essentially the same as DSMB's, but the difference is that DSMB's will usually be closed with an OPV vs. either an open bottom, or a closed design for surface use only.
Now, here is the VERY important difference. SMB's are used to mark your position to local traffic. DSMB's are generally to mark your position on your safety stop because you are deep enough where overhead traffic is irrelevant during the dive, but now you need the surface to know you are within striking range or whatever else you are signaling. Neither of these have to be enormous, just big enough to make people aware of your position, 1m for DSMB's is common, SMB's can be smaller, 12x12 is minimum size for the flag in Florida so most are that size, and with the buoy and mast, they are usually between .5 and 1m tall. Safety Sausages are what is VERY important that ALL ocean divers need to have and be proficient at using and what I believe PADI is emphasizing in their current course. These are the ones you use when you need to be found. I'd argue that we might be arguing semantics, but it's still a difference. My SMB is different than my safety sausage, and those are different than my DSMB. If I am towing my SMB, I don't carry a DSMB, but the safety sausage stays with me.
DSMB is a DSS 1m, so it's pretty useless as a safety sausage. It is only 1m tall, it isn't that big, and while it has reflective tape on it which helps, it just isn't tall enough for Carolinas diving where the seas may be 1m or more.
https://www.deepseasupply.com/index.php?product=85
SMB is on order, it's the Mako tow float deal, pretty slick unit if you aren't flying to your destination since it can be used as a surface flotation device which is super convenient. They also have an inflatable one which is pretty slick as well
Hawaiian Hard Float | MAKO Spearguns
Safety Sausage is a Hog 72" deally
Cave Adventurers - hog safety sausage - Marianna, Florida USA - Never Undersold!
Yes this can serve double duty as a DSMB because it has an OPV, but the DSS one is much smaller profile, and is easier to carry in travel. The 72" is also a bit overkill for Caribbean type diving where the waves are pretty calm. I would choose this due to cost/performance, if I had to choose one since it can perform double duty, and is a closed design with something like 20+lbs of lift so you can hug it if you have to ditch your rig in an emergency. My Hog is in Yellow for better night visibility, vs. the DSS in Orange for day time viz.
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