Pia, What amazes me is that you can release this mess. It seems like a lot of non-divers made an executive decision to somehow shoe horn scuba into this fitness Movescount thing. If you want to know what divers want, have a look at Mac Dive 2. In terms of tech you are seriously waisting your time. No self respecting tech diver is going to use Suunto, your market is with the recreational divers like me. I have now found my dive software for the future, just do yourself a favour and look at MacDive, it was developed over 2 years in consultation with divers.
Suunto DM4??????
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Starcruiser
Contributor
Thanks for the update, Pia. I will continue to use DM 3.1 until I have the ability to store all of my information locally in DM4. I have no desire, whether private or not, to use cloud storage.
As a manager with Suunto in North America I hear you.
Couple of quick things. First one of the reasons we have gone to Movescount is that it allows us to go to web based software. Making it much easier to keep the software up to date ( Windows 8?). We are now also MAC compatible.
That being said if you have tried Movescount ( And please try it) and are not satisfied the best way to get a change is to post feedback on the sight ( See bottom right corner of Movescount home page) Also let us know what you need and what needs to be changed. This direct feedback will move things much faster.
Thanks
Bill Porter
Suunto Regional Manager
Couple of quick things. First one of the reasons we have gone to Movescount is that it allows us to go to web based software. Making it much easier to keep the software up to date ( Windows 8?). We are now also MAC compatible.
That being said if you have tried Movescount ( And please try it) and are not satisfied the best way to get a change is to post feedback on the sight ( See bottom right corner of Movescount home page) Also let us know what you need and what needs to be changed. This direct feedback will move things much faster.
Thanks
Bill Porter
Suunto Regional Manager
Go ahead and update the look but leave all the features of 3.1 and add what features you see fit, then I will use DM4. I played around in movescount and I have no desire to use it again. I just used the dive planner in 3.1 to calculate my tissue loading and gas usage at the end of a series of dives. It was easy and painless. I then went to DM4 to do the same thing. I got the first dive planned but couldn't figure how to enter the other dives of the series. Maybe I just don't know how to do it and need instruction, but no help feature is found. A good piece of software should be at least as good as the last version. Please fix DM4. Offering DM4 to the world without all the features of DM3.1 feels like we were promised a candy bar but given only the wrapper. I will continue to use DM3.1 and continue to like my Suunto products. I am considering a Mac for my next computer and am excited to hear that DM4 will be Mac compatible. However, without a complete dive log and planner application DM4 would be of no use to me.
My opinion falls in line with everyone else, (and I've got a number of complaints of my own) it feels like a step backwards. It really acts like a buggy Beta version that is not supposed to be in the hands of mainstream customers. Furthermore, it feels like Suunto has lost the legal license to the old version of the software prompting an overly hasty release of an untested program while simultaneously removing both support for and easy access to their older version.
My first complaint in the DM4 experience: On the software download page they tell you that in order to import dives from any previous version of Dive Manager it must FIRST be upgraded to the newest 3.1 Version. Only, they don't just post a link to their old version. (Speaking as a consumer, this is an alarm bell in my head by the way) In order to get the link to download the old version you have to send a message to their helpdesk first. This is REALLY the easiest way they could think of to get a required software update to their customers? They make you jump through the hoops of creating an account or in my case, go through their "Lost Password" process. Finally get to send my request, even this process took three attempts before it actually sent.
Second complaint: Unlike the previous versions of Dive Manager, you cannot download the complete installation ZIP/EXE file, only a small download manager. I understand why they do this, customers will always download the newest version of software during any installation. This is completely useless when you don't have ready access to the internet while attempting an install/reinstalltion. While I was asking for the link to download ver 3.1
Dive Manger 3.1
I also asked for a link to download the full copy of DM4 to save for offline installations, giving them my reasons. They refused.
Third complaint: Immediately after installation I noticed that the software does not work with the resolution on my laptop. I use a netbook, and the default resolution is 1024 x 600. DM4 defaults to a larger format and so it cuts off the bottom of the 1/4 of the app. The only way to access this portion (including Dive Summary, Dive Details, Dive profile, etc) is to change the resolution on my laptop to 1024x 768, where it turns it into a sort of scrolling vertical virtual desktop. You cannot resize DM4 down so it all fits on the screen. Sounds like a personal problem, right? Netbooks (and their widescreen screen ratios) are getting terribly popular, especially for travelers like me living on the road. Furthermore, there is NO other application I use that requires I change my resolution just so I can see the whole application including Dive Manager 3. Every other program allows me to resize the application so it all fits on screen. DM3 actually lets you resize individual fields within the app to make certain areas bigger or smaller as desired. Along with this there appears to be a problem with displaying an appropriate number of dives. The list of dives in the upper left corner only shows a maximum of 3 dives at a time, with a scroll bar next to it. I have over 700 dives I'm importing from DM3, and scrolling through them 3 at a time is cumbersome and pointless.
Fourth: Import function had a partial failure though it didn't actually tell me that there was a problem during import. DM4 simply thinks I have only 19 dives during the year 2011 when in reality I have over 100 dives. No idea what went wrong, or how to fix it.
Then I tried downloading my Vyper Air to it as a test. Should be 30-40 dives in it's memory. There doesn't seem to be an analog to the DM3 download wizard, it simply begins downloading new dives as soon as it's plugged in. Only problem is it downloaded just 10 dives. Doesn't let you choose which dives you can download, or show you what dives are still in the dive computer's memory, or any of the sorting options included in the old download wizard. Just grabs and drops the new dives wherever it thinks is best.
Fifth: even if it was just eye-candy I liked how DM3 shows you what was displayed on the face of the dive computer during a given moment just by selecting a point on the graphic display of the dive profile. Same with the Tissue Saturation % scale, showing how you full different tissue compartments were during that point in the dive and which tissue (roughly) was the controlling compartment.
Along with the visuals, the Dive Summary is all too brief and as others have eluded to, it appears designed to appeal to children. Compare the information displayed and the ability to change information between DM4's "Dive Summary" and DM3's "Dive Details". Talk about a step backwards!
Sixth: Compare what is available under the "Settings" of both DM3 and DM4. With the old software you could choose what number you want the software to begin the log at. Useful when you switch computer brands (as I did from Oceanic to Suunto, at dive 300). With DM3 I could tell it to begin my Suunto log at dive 301 keeping my career # accurate. The custom fields you can apply, the personal information you can alter. And rather nice: you could choose a mix-up of metric and imperial to suit your needs. Lets say you want only metric measurements of depth and weight but you want temp in degrees F, or tank measured in Cubic feet rather than liters. All doable in the old DM3. DM4's Dive Settings options: Metric or Imperial, and choose your default tank(s). That's it.
So, those are my initial problems with the software itself. As an aside I have certain concerns about having my personal dive log anywhere accesssible either on the internet or a remote server, regardless of the ability to make it a "private" account. I'm especially troubled by it speaking as a dive professional. For one thing I just don't even see WHY anybody would want to see my dive logs, or why I would want to see anybody else's log. It's like I tell my students, a logbook is first and foremost a personal thing, what you want to remember about your personal dives. I don't get this push to make that public and it seems like it's just a poorly thought out program that has fallen over from Suunto's other product lines and isn't particularly applicable to divers.
I've only rarely had the need to print out dive logs but I have done it. The lack of print functionality is another hit against DM4. I also have multiple Suunto dive computers and for certain reasons I keep some of the logs separate by computer and I do it by having different user logins. I have also had need to download other people's dive computers for them and I need those to be kept separate for obvious reasons. Without multiple users/logins....another hit.
So, tell me I'm wrong. What possible reason could they have to remove MASSIVE amounts of functionality from their newest software while all but forcing people to roll over to the newest version immediately? Doesn't it just stink of a legal requirement to desist using the old version of the software?
My first complaint in the DM4 experience: On the software download page they tell you that in order to import dives from any previous version of Dive Manager it must FIRST be upgraded to the newest 3.1 Version. Only, they don't just post a link to their old version. (Speaking as a consumer, this is an alarm bell in my head by the way) In order to get the link to download the old version you have to send a message to their helpdesk first. This is REALLY the easiest way they could think of to get a required software update to their customers? They make you jump through the hoops of creating an account or in my case, go through their "Lost Password" process. Finally get to send my request, even this process took three attempts before it actually sent.
Second complaint: Unlike the previous versions of Dive Manager, you cannot download the complete installation ZIP/EXE file, only a small download manager. I understand why they do this, customers will always download the newest version of software during any installation. This is completely useless when you don't have ready access to the internet while attempting an install/reinstalltion. While I was asking for the link to download ver 3.1
Dive Manger 3.1
I also asked for a link to download the full copy of DM4 to save for offline installations, giving them my reasons. They refused.
Third complaint: Immediately after installation I noticed that the software does not work with the resolution on my laptop. I use a netbook, and the default resolution is 1024 x 600. DM4 defaults to a larger format and so it cuts off the bottom of the 1/4 of the app. The only way to access this portion (including Dive Summary, Dive Details, Dive profile, etc) is to change the resolution on my laptop to 1024x 768, where it turns it into a sort of scrolling vertical virtual desktop. You cannot resize DM4 down so it all fits on the screen. Sounds like a personal problem, right? Netbooks (and their widescreen screen ratios) are getting terribly popular, especially for travelers like me living on the road. Furthermore, there is NO other application I use that requires I change my resolution just so I can see the whole application including Dive Manager 3. Every other program allows me to resize the application so it all fits on screen. DM3 actually lets you resize individual fields within the app to make certain areas bigger or smaller as desired. Along with this there appears to be a problem with displaying an appropriate number of dives. The list of dives in the upper left corner only shows a maximum of 3 dives at a time, with a scroll bar next to it. I have over 700 dives I'm importing from DM3, and scrolling through them 3 at a time is cumbersome and pointless.
Fourth: Import function had a partial failure though it didn't actually tell me that there was a problem during import. DM4 simply thinks I have only 19 dives during the year 2011 when in reality I have over 100 dives. No idea what went wrong, or how to fix it.
Then I tried downloading my Vyper Air to it as a test. Should be 30-40 dives in it's memory. There doesn't seem to be an analog to the DM3 download wizard, it simply begins downloading new dives as soon as it's plugged in. Only problem is it downloaded just 10 dives. Doesn't let you choose which dives you can download, or show you what dives are still in the dive computer's memory, or any of the sorting options included in the old download wizard. Just grabs and drops the new dives wherever it thinks is best.
Fifth: even if it was just eye-candy I liked how DM3 shows you what was displayed on the face of the dive computer during a given moment just by selecting a point on the graphic display of the dive profile. Same with the Tissue Saturation % scale, showing how you full different tissue compartments were during that point in the dive and which tissue (roughly) was the controlling compartment.
Along with the visuals, the Dive Summary is all too brief and as others have eluded to, it appears designed to appeal to children. Compare the information displayed and the ability to change information between DM4's "Dive Summary" and DM3's "Dive Details". Talk about a step backwards!
Sixth: Compare what is available under the "Settings" of both DM3 and DM4. With the old software you could choose what number you want the software to begin the log at. Useful when you switch computer brands (as I did from Oceanic to Suunto, at dive 300). With DM3 I could tell it to begin my Suunto log at dive 301 keeping my career # accurate. The custom fields you can apply, the personal information you can alter. And rather nice: you could choose a mix-up of metric and imperial to suit your needs. Lets say you want only metric measurements of depth and weight but you want temp in degrees F, or tank measured in Cubic feet rather than liters. All doable in the old DM3. DM4's Dive Settings options: Metric or Imperial, and choose your default tank(s). That's it.
So, those are my initial problems with the software itself. As an aside I have certain concerns about having my personal dive log anywhere accesssible either on the internet or a remote server, regardless of the ability to make it a "private" account. I'm especially troubled by it speaking as a dive professional. For one thing I just don't even see WHY anybody would want to see my dive logs, or why I would want to see anybody else's log. It's like I tell my students, a logbook is first and foremost a personal thing, what you want to remember about your personal dives. I don't get this push to make that public and it seems like it's just a poorly thought out program that has fallen over from Suunto's other product lines and isn't particularly applicable to divers.
I've only rarely had the need to print out dive logs but I have done it. The lack of print functionality is another hit against DM4. I also have multiple Suunto dive computers and for certain reasons I keep some of the logs separate by computer and I do it by having different user logins. I have also had need to download other people's dive computers for them and I need those to be kept separate for obvious reasons. Without multiple users/logins....another hit.
So, tell me I'm wrong. What possible reason could they have to remove MASSIVE amounts of functionality from their newest software while all but forcing people to roll over to the newest version immediately? Doesn't it just stink of a legal requirement to desist using the old version of the software?
DiverDown99
Guest
Man! ~ I wish I had seen these posts before I spent most of today trying to make D4 work! What a @#$%^& piece of horrible software. Thanks everyone for the posts. Diddler you pretty well summed up all our issues.
Jim
Jim
I'm putting together a list of the problems I've experienced with DM4 with the intention to forward along to Suunto, starting with my first post above. The more I use it the more deficiencies I find. Some further issues I've uncovered:
DM4 does not seem to have any actual export function besides this online storage nonsense. DM3 would allow import and export of individual dives, groups of dives or all dives, as well as Backing up and Restoring the complete Database. DM4 only allows Importing, no complete database backup or restore. Not sure how we're supposed to do a backup or transfer dives to a different computer.
We can't seem to make almost any change to the individual dive logs on DM4. With DM3 we were allowed to make changes to date, time, Surface Interval, Dive Number, water temps, O2 %, P02 Max, etc. Also under the Air Consumption tab it lets us make changes to the tank specs, pressure specs, dive time and then recalculate to figure SAC rates. More importantly, we can't select multiple dives and merge them, or even delete dives from the logbook as far as I can tell. Can't select multiple dives in DM4 to see their profiles overlapping. Copying the dive log to the clipboard, adding multimedia to a dive, (pics, video) these were all useful functions in DM3 accessed just by right-clicking a specific dive.
DM4 doesn't seem to list by dive number at all. All I can see is how many dives I've done within a given calendar year. Not very helpful when trying to keep track of your career total number of dives.
Also did a bit more checking into the botched import job, for some reason it failed to import about 115 dives from the -middle- of my complete log. It didn't chop off the beginning or the end, just 115 out of the middle. No reason or pattern I can discern. Tried doing a manual export of just those 115 dives from DM3 and a new import into DM4, nothing happens. I select the file, choose open....and nothing. No error message, no status window and no additions to DM4's log. I also noticed that some of the dives recorded in the memory of my Vyper Air overlap some of the missing 115 dives. You'd think that DM4 would recognise these as new dives and try to incorporate them into the log but no, it just keeps on ignoring them.
Doesn't seem to have a Search function either. DM3 allowed us to search ranges of dives by Date, depth and dive time, as well as Gas model, Device and Deco dives. Can't find anything like that in DM4
I mentioned above that we've lost functionality found in DM3's download wizard, specifically sorting by target folder location, Dive location and Site while downloading the dives.
Anything else I've missed or hasn't been covered by someone else in this thread?
DM4 does not seem to have any actual export function besides this online storage nonsense. DM3 would allow import and export of individual dives, groups of dives or all dives, as well as Backing up and Restoring the complete Database. DM4 only allows Importing, no complete database backup or restore. Not sure how we're supposed to do a backup or transfer dives to a different computer.
We can't seem to make almost any change to the individual dive logs on DM4. With DM3 we were allowed to make changes to date, time, Surface Interval, Dive Number, water temps, O2 %, P02 Max, etc. Also under the Air Consumption tab it lets us make changes to the tank specs, pressure specs, dive time and then recalculate to figure SAC rates. More importantly, we can't select multiple dives and merge them, or even delete dives from the logbook as far as I can tell. Can't select multiple dives in DM4 to see their profiles overlapping. Copying the dive log to the clipboard, adding multimedia to a dive, (pics, video) these were all useful functions in DM3 accessed just by right-clicking a specific dive.
DM4 doesn't seem to list by dive number at all. All I can see is how many dives I've done within a given calendar year. Not very helpful when trying to keep track of your career total number of dives.
Also did a bit more checking into the botched import job, for some reason it failed to import about 115 dives from the -middle- of my complete log. It didn't chop off the beginning or the end, just 115 out of the middle. No reason or pattern I can discern. Tried doing a manual export of just those 115 dives from DM3 and a new import into DM4, nothing happens. I select the file, choose open....and nothing. No error message, no status window and no additions to DM4's log. I also noticed that some of the dives recorded in the memory of my Vyper Air overlap some of the missing 115 dives. You'd think that DM4 would recognise these as new dives and try to incorporate them into the log but no, it just keeps on ignoring them.
Doesn't seem to have a Search function either. DM3 allowed us to search ranges of dives by Date, depth and dive time, as well as Gas model, Device and Deco dives. Can't find anything like that in DM4
I mentioned above that we've lost functionality found in DM3's download wizard, specifically sorting by target folder location, Dive location and Site while downloading the dives.
Anything else I've missed or hasn't been covered by someone else in this thread?
You know, I had missed this point when I was scanning over the posts in the thread. I was actually impressed with the additions they're doing in the new D-series computers, I like and use the wireless transmitters on my Vytec DS and Vyper Air. And a trimix D9 (while outside my realm of use) is awfully sexy. Just think though, can you imagine being the proud new owner of one of these shiny computers and then you discover that you HAVE to use DM4? This would actually be a deal breaker for me, I would never purchase one of these computers based solely on the fact that DM4 is my only choice, and DM4 is all but unusable.
Some honest advice: start planning now for Dive Manager 3.2 that includes support for the new D-series models. I really think you're going to lose sales on this line if you don't.
Starcruiser
Contributor
Thanks for taking the time to go through the program as thoroughly as you are. I'll have to admit, after the initial shock at how bad it was, and the responses I saw on Suunto's FB page that basically said 'Sorry, this is it. You'll love it...' I gave up looking at the software. I'll wait and see if there's an improved version and look at that. You really have done a great job of picking what just isn't right with this. It's not even buggy beta software, this shouldn't be even considered an in house alpha.
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I was looking at a Swiss dive computer soem time ago - one of the reasons I did not buy it was that I could not download and edit my dives offline, not even with a 3rd party programm. I like my Cobra and I have recommened Suunto computers in the past, but with this piece of useless code....
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