Tip for OW classes?

[Bubbletrubble]

If they cannot learn in the scheduled amount of time set out for the course that they paid for then they can pay me or the LDS for additional time they require.

Do you make this policy clear to all of the people before they sign up for a class with you? If so, then I suppose at least they would know what they were getting themselves into. Under such circumstances, I would think that the student would feel significant pressure to "get" the skills as quickly as possible and move onto the next one.

To be honest (and I'm not saying this to be mean at all), if I were a prospective basic OW student, I don't think I would want to sign up for a group/semi-private/private class with an instructor who articulated a position such as yours. The primary focus seems to be on the instructor getting paid...rather than doing what it takes to develop a safe, confident, competent diver.

 

[RonFrank]

Getting certified runs about $500 in our area. There are no tips in that price nor should there be. We did buy our instructors dinner.

Tipping in the USA has become way too commonplace and this seems to be growing. IMO its so cheap business owners can get away with not paying the staff, and that is BS. Just because you interact with the public should not mean that you need to tip. Do we tip sales folks, store clerks, or cashiers? No. But wait staff and hair dressers yes. Why? Because long ago tips became common place in these professions and the industries stopped paying a real wage. That is wrong, and I wish it never happened.

Let's not model the dive industry from the food service industry. Unfortunately DM's work as part of their training, which opened the door for free DM's. Just keep a supply in training, and there is a work force that is not only free, but paying. So DM's can never hope to see a wage.

Instructors were paid $25 for classroom/pool and $25 for OW checkout dives per student. That has likely gone up as I have not been paying attention but still, not much. The irony is the instructors do most of the work, and the LDS does very little. What the instructors don't do is handled by the retail staff. Basically ensure the paperwork is complete and the money is collected. The LDS owners supply the facilities and set the prices.

I honestly don't understand how a $500 class can loose money. A1 scuba handles 1000 new students a year or did in 2004. That's $500,000 in gross profit annually. The shops say it's a loss leader. I would love to see the numbers behind this loss..... and the new students also buy the lions share of new equipment.

 

[hypertech]

Do you make this policy clear to all of the people before they sign up for a class with you? If so, then I suppose at least they would know what they were getting themselves into. Under such circumstances, I would think that the student would feel significant pressure to "get" the skills as quickly as possible and move onto the next one.

To be honest (and I'm not saying this to be mean at all), if I were a prospective basic OW student, I don't think I would want to sign up for a group/semi-private/private class with an instructor who articulated a position such as yours. The primary focus seems to be on the instructor getting paid...rather than doing what it takes to develop a safe, confident, competent diver.

Why should they need to? If you can't finish in the time allotted, why shouldn't you expect to pay for extra instructor/pool time?

Anytime you are hiring someone to provide a service, if you need more time, you expect to pay more.

Its not a bad idea to be clear about it upfront, but I don't think it would be surprising to be expected to pay for extra time if you need extra time. Now, if that heads towards people never finishing on time and always having to pay more, then thats a separate issue. I'm assuming this is the scenario of the student here and there that needs a little more and not the norm.

 

[oly5050user]

Getting certified runs about $500 in our area. There are no tips in that price nor should there be. We did buy our instructors dinner.

Tipping in the USA has become way too commonplace and this seems to be growing. IMO its so cheap business owners can get away with not paying the staff, and that is BS. Just because you interact with the public should not mean that you need to tip. Do we tip sales folks, store clerks, or cashiers? No. But wait staff and hair dressers yes. Why? Because long ago tips became common place in these professions and the industries stopped paying a real wage. That is wrong, and I wish it never happened.

Let's not model the dive industry from the food service industry. Unfortunately DM's work as part of their training, which opened the door for free DM's. Just keep a supply in training, and there is a work force that is not only free, but paying. So DM's can never hope to see a wage.

Instructors were paid $25 for classroom/pool and $25 for OW checkout dives per student. That has likely gone up as I have not been paying attention but still, not much. The irony is the instructors do most of the work, and the LDS does very little. What the instructors don't do is handled by the retail staff. Basically ensure the paperwork is complete and the money is collected. The LDS owners supply the facilities and set the prices.

I honestly don't understand how a $500 class can loose money. A1 scuba handles 1000 new students a year or did in 2004. That's $500,000 in gross profit annually. The shops say it's a loss leader. I would love to see the numbers behind this loss..... and the new students also buy the lions share of new equipment.

Tips are there for someone to show appreciation for a service.Many times a instr may go to extra lengths to get a student to a level that they can be certified. The instructor may be getting paid on a per head or course basis and is not compensated for the extra time it may take.Definitely deserves a tip. If the cost of the course is raised to accomodate the extra time that may be involved then EVERYONE pays a higher fee to learn to dive.Is it fair to he people who "get it" 1st time around as 98% of my students do? To pay an instructor $25. to comlete academic/pool sessions for a course is an insult to the instructor.That comes out to like $6. an hour just to do module 1 alone...Instructors should be paid hourly.This way he/she does their job correctly without fear of not making any money for the time spent.If a student required excessively more time than what a group class requires,that person should be charged for it on a private basis.

 

[Zeagle Eagle]

You should do a good job, because it is the right thing to do. If you don't like your pay then get a job that pays more.

 

[TMHeimer]

Why should they need to? If you can't finish in the time allotted, why shouldn't you expect to pay for extra instructor/pool time?

Anytime you are hiring someone to provide a service, if you need more time, you expect to pay more.

Its not a bad idea to be clear about it upfront, but I don't think it would be surprising to be expected to pay for extra time if you need extra time. Now, if that heads towards people never finishing on time and always having to pay more, then thats a separate issue. I'm assuming this is the scenario of the student here and there that needs a little more and not the norm.

Yeah I agree. I think what oly5050 is saying is that it depends on the dregree of the problem. If someone has trouble with a particular skill there is the DM to help. If someone has difficulty with a lot of skills or starting diving in general (fears of some sort), this would go beyond resonable time the instructor or DM has to spend with them. In school, the teacher usually will spend time after hours helping slow students. But if the student is failing too many things, they must repeat the grade--the teacher isn't going to private tutor him for hours and hours.

 

[hypertech]

You should do a good job, because it is the right thing to do. If you don't like your pay then get a job that pays more.

rofl, because people are in the scuba training business for the excessive profits.

I do it because I enjoy it and I enjoy introducing people to the sport. A tip in the form of a $20, a gold star, or just a - Hey, thanks a lot for your help, we had a good time, let's me know my efforts are worth while.

 

[Bubbletrubble]

Anytime you are hiring someone to provide a service, if you need more time, you expect to pay more.

I disagree. It really depends on the terms of payment to which both parties agree for the service(s) rendered.
Some people are paid for services on a per-job basis. They are paid the same if the job takes 1 unit of time to complete...or 10 units of time.
Some people are paid for services per unit time spent on the job.

When it comes to scuba training, I wouldn't naturally expect to have to pay more for a little extra practice with the instructor. Perhaps my expectations may be attributed to the way in which scuba instruction is advertised in my neck of the woods -- cost per student. If it were advertised as cost per hour until skill proficiency is achieved, then I suppose I would expect to pay more in the event I took longer than the class-allotted time.

 

[vladodessit]

Tips are there for someone to show appreciation for a service.Many times a instr may go to extra lengths to get a student to a level that they can be certified. The instructor may be getting paid on a per head or course basis and is not compensated for the extra time it may take.Definitely deserves a tip. If the cost of the course is raised to accomodate the extra time that may be involved then EVERYONE pays a higher fee to learn to dive.Is it fair to he people who "get it" 1st time around as 98% of my students do? To pay an instructor $25. to comlete academic/pool sessions for a course is an insult to the instructor.That comes out to like $6. an hour just to do module 1 alone...Instructors should be paid hourly.This way he/she does their job correctly without fear of not making any money for the time spent.If a student required excessively more time than what a group class requires,that person should be charged for it on a private basis.

Pay is for the end result, in my opinion. I am a dentist. You come with severe pain to the office. Tooth needs to be taken out. I charge you certain fees. Let's say $150, what is 50 percentile UCR (usual and customary) fee for the area, so it's competetive, not too high, not too low. We agree. I anesthetise you, as per usual procedure. When I start taking out a tooth you start screaming and swinging you arms. It turns out you have a phobia of dentists since childhood and some pressure feeling makes you scared and you cannot control yourself at this point. I anesthetise you some more, using more advanced techniques. You still scream and don't let me do it even admitting that it doesn't hurt, you are just scared. After spending 1 hour trying to calm you down we figure it won't work. I prescribe you pain killers and medication to make you calm with instructions on how to use prior to you next appointment. Meanwhile, Ms. Smith, who has been a nice patient of the practice for many years, left due to waiting for me for too long. She left very upset and told front staff that she will find another dentist and will tell all her friends not to come to my office.

You come next time, a bit sedated. I anesthetise you again. I start taking the tooth out, you don't scream but still jerk a little. Due to your sharp movement I break the root. I have to open your gums, drill out some bone and take out remaining piece, put sutures. All of it through a stressfull time with you jerking your head around uncontrolably, shaking your legs so that the whole chair is moving, asking for a break every 5 seconds. We are finally done. Now I have couple of questions:

1. What will happen if I tell you at this point that $150 will not cover the procedure since it was much more difficult and time consuming then I anticipated?
2. Will you tip me and/or my staff?

 

[vladodessit]

Oh, I just thought of another analogy that had to do with dental office. How about this:

You come to the dental office. Nice lady meets you, takes you to the room. Room is clean and setup with sterile instruments for your procedure. Lady is reassuring you that it will not be as bad as you think. She talks to you trying to take your mind of procedure. She holds your hand during the injections, is very careful with suction w/o sucking your tongue into it, wipes you face with during the procedure, jokes with you to relax you. After the procedure instead of sending you to the mirror she is carefully cleans your face from residue of procedure with wet towel. Then she brings you warmed up moist towel to put on your jaw muscles, so they stop hurting from keeping open. On your next appointment it all repeats but she also remembers you by name, remembers you like SCUBA and talks about it. Or, she is also CPR certified, trained in BLS and would be the one to perform CPR in case you collapse in the office for whatever reason.

Now questions:
1. Should you tip her?
2. Would your opinion change if you found out she is paid minimum wage due to saturated job market?
3. How about if you found out she is not getting paid since she is on her internship and has to work for a month for free to get her diploma?