To those considering an OW class...

[Jim Lapenta]

I don't know why I'm even responding to this thread as it is so old but to address the last poster. In my OW classes you are not just demonstrating kick styles. I am using that time to teach you buddy skills, pace, and proper skin diving techniques as a buddy team. I also use that to teach you mask clearing and mask removal and replacement. In addition I am assessing your fitness to take my course, your attitude towards safety, and your attention to instructions. I DO NOT train "resort divers" to dive with DM's or guides. Those who want to do that need to find another instructor.

I train divers to dive so that I would trust them with my life or more importantly with my kids life in the water. It is NOT up to the DM to decide who is safe in the water or capable. DM's and guides doing that have killed or injured people with too aggressive profiles, poor planning, and just plain arrogance. The last line of your paragraph directly contradicts your previous assertions. Individuals cannot know their own limits/capabilities if they have received less than adequate training in how to assess those items. The diver who relies on a DM or Guide to decide how much weight they use is someone I don't want to dive with. As is the one who does not know if a site is beyond their abilities or cannot rescue me in the event of an emergency.

 

[ZenDiver.3D]

Just this past weekend I made a terrible mistake and made an uncontrolled ascent from 42 ft. after getting to the bottom to discover I was not weighted properly. A minute and a half down and the same up - became deathly ill - vertigo set in - which inturn I was unable to do my dives on Sunday. (You have already paid - so what --- you are just out that money as well)

There seems to be allot of peoplewho feel the same way- about additional class/pool room time. If there were options for extended classes - maybe we would have more divers.

In midst of WHAT to do . . . . .??????

Wow, I am sure feeling sorry for you. A- you should have been thouroughly taught how to determine your weight and do a buoyancy check before you ever got to a pond/lake/quarry/sea. B- your course sounds hurry up and get out of my face style by the instructor. C- this would never have happened on my course. I have my guys know their Proer pool weight and then check their sea wieght once there. They adjust quite easily and are not over or underweighted. You should have too.

Thanks Pink Pride -
I don't want to throw in the towel - I guess I just need a slower pace class - to practice buoyancy - saftey stops, etc.
The last thing I heard from the DM while training a class of about 18 was "When yall get down the rope - move and get over, out of the way" so when I got to the end - I had to reach and hold on to my buddies hand - she had actually carried additional weight for me - but we didn't make the understanding clear how I was to tell her I needed additional weights. I was patting my weight bags etc, and as I started ascending when I let go of her hand ..... I was immediatley headed up - So therefore I gave her the thumbs up and proceeded up the rope - in the midst of ascending my mask started flooding - which felt like Mt. Rushmore entering in my face - stinging w/ burning salt water --- not to add I wear hard contacts- and fearing I would loose one of those as well. It was amazing how quick I descended to 42 feet. Lesson learned no matter HOW LONG you are in a dive you always have to do a saftey stop - or atleast slow down. Thanks again for the confidence in NOT giving up!!
Wannadive

OK where was the instructor? Because the DM better not have been leading or instructing any part of dive when all required skills have not been performed already.
You should have had the proper weight. NOT another student. That was a training problem for Both of you.

Please don't give up on this sport. Check around and find another shop/instructor to help you. Many are more than willing to help. Usually if they do, that diver will be loyal to them, so all win. Please go somewhere else. You have been given inadequate and dangerous instruction, based on what you've told us.

Hi, I'm not giving up either, but..
My class was scheduled to be 4 x 4 hours evenings with classroom at the LDS, then pool afterwards, plus 2 days of 2 dives each in a local pond. A bonus 5th dive in the ocean was included but that was after certification.
Night one was just class time, no pool, and got out an hour early. Class 2 was cancelled at the last minute by the instructor and no make up was added. Class 3 - about 1 1/2 hour class [includes paperwork and the drive to the pool] followed by 1 1/2 hours in the pool. The pool actually closed at 9 pm when the class was advertised to go until 10. Night 4 - short "refresher" class demanded by students, then the written test. Note: there was a home study book + video. Then we did about another 1 1/2 hour pool session. So we were in the pool a total of 4.5 hours and that included the swim / tread water test that took at least 20 minutes.
I felt okay after the last pool session. I got 100 on the test and things seemed to be getting easier each time.
Day one at the Pond was hard work. We were practicing skills - up and down - and in and out of the water. When we tried to swim out on the 2nd dive, everybody had issues - mostly bouyancy - so we had to come back in. Time was up as the dive shop had to open by noon [3hours]. The next day, I had to stop after dive one as I had some ear trouble [turned out it was the 1st sign of a cold].
I did hang out and later at the dive shop, everybody but me logged FIVE dives and I logged 4. The first dive was the snorkel dive that we never even mentioned until we were told to fill in the parameters in our dive log, which was then signed and stamped.
I tried to do my last dive Friday evening and it was the worst. There was a lot of pressure to finish what needed to be done before it got dark. We started later than planned due to compressor issues at the LDS. I had too much weight and knew it. I had had 26 lbs the first 2 days and I was crawling on the bottom, and then having a lot of trouble with bouyancy [yo-yo]. I had had a 2 week hiatus waiting for my ears to get better and I had been reading this board a lot. I asked the instructor if I could use 2 lbs less and he said "no", so I didn't. I wish I hadn't even asked. He ended up adding even more weight by unexpectedly pulling my weight pocket. Now I'm at 26 lbs in fresh water with a 7 mm wet suit. I am a 5'5" 130 lb woman. I had to use my hands to keep my face from smashing on the bottom! Bouyancy control was impossible. I tried just adding a small amount of air to the bc and waiting for the effect but the instructor kept signaling me to do 2 puff, then 2 puffs again. I went flying up. We were only told how to vent air through the oral inflator and I couldn't get it done. I was getting more stressed by the minute. After we did an emergency ascent with me breathing his octo, I couldn't orally inflate my bc [weight?] and I had dropped the octo. The instructor said nothing as I kept going under until I finally used the power inflator. By that time I was in full - can't catch my breath panic. The instructor got far away and directed me to swim in on my back. Obviously, I didn't die but I did hyperventilate all the way in.

You were also shafted. And the sheer amount of weight there is staggering! Didn't you do a buoyancy test ANywhere? Or did he just want rocks? Find someone else. Now. And they are there, just look more. Diving is definitely worth the effort.

I don't know why I'm even responding to this thread as it is so old but to address the last poster. In my OW classes you are not just demonstrating kick styles. I am using that time to teach you buddy skills, pace, and proper skin diving techniques as a buddy team. I also use that to teach you mask clearing and mask removal and replacement. In addition I am assessing your fitness to take my course, your attitude towards safety, and your attention to instructions. I DO NOT train "resort divers" to dive with DM's or guides. Those who want to do that need to find another instructor.

I train divers to dive so that I would trust them with my life or more importantly with my kids life in the water. It is NOT up to the DM to decide who is safe in the water or capable. DM's and guides doing that have killed or injured people with too aggressive profiles, poor planning, and just plain arrogance. The last line of your paragraph directly contradicts your previous assertions. Individuals cannot know their own limits/capabilities if they have received less than adequate training in how to assess those items. The diver who relies on a DM or Guide to decide how much weight they use is someone I don't want to dive with. As is the one who does not know if a site is beyond their abilities or cannot rescue me in the event of an emergency.

Yep, exactly what you said. I don't have to take that up now, thanks Jim.
Why do people think the DM is their personal babysitter/guardian angel? why do they think they should have to have actual skills or sense? Are there really that many People out there content to be inept and blame othersfor it or demand that others fix it? Jeez.
And you're right, there are many dm's not capable, but what about the sharp great dm's these people are endangering by expecting the dm to save/wipe their butts?

 

[orm]

Admittedly I haven't read all the posts in this thread, so forgive me if I'm repeating something someone else has said.

OW course in 2 days?
I'm not sure where this has come from as the Open Water course hasn't changed that much in the 14 years since I did mine. There have been skills that have been omitted or made optional - Buddy Breathing as an example, but the overall length of the course may have been shortened a little bit with the wider availability of materials to study at home, but when I started teaching ten years ago it was possible to rush a course out in 3 days. Not much has changed.

The big change
What has changed is the availability of the easier entry courses like DSD and Scubadiver. This has come from the fact that people have shorter amounts of time to donate to taking a course, by giving a shorter 2 day Scubadiver course, these people can be brought into the diving fold by giving vital instruction in areas that count... it's basically the first half of the open water course.

Scubadiver is dangerous as they don't learn all of the OW course?
The OW course certifies divers to go and dive with a trained buddy on a dive that is viable given their current level of training and experience.

In reality the OW divers are resort divers and probably only dive once or twice a year, in a resort in calm clear seas, with professional dive leaders, either Instructors or Divemasters.

If you work in the dive industry and come across the average 'resort diver' you see a lot of their 4 day OW knowledge pretty much forgotten, forcing you to go over the key points again. So why deny this market though long 4 day courses when the divers won't be diving in the situations that they have been trained for?

Surely it's safety fist and money second?
Wel yes, safety isn't compromised, but the availability is greatly increased. With more divers coming into the industry there is more gear bought, services hired, dive centres used, DMs done, IDCs taken, it all injects money into the diving system that pays for greater equipment development and researched, which ultimately make our sport that much more safer.



Again sorry if I've repeated anything.

Orm

 

[orm]

Do'h! Just seen that this was posted last year!

 

[kaerius]

The LDS I work for right now uses free pool/boat tries with just the octo and mask at the surface to draw in people to do discover scuba diving, which is then used to draw in people for more dives(optional extra DSD dives) or courses. The OW course is the by now common 3 day affair, but we usually let the people doing the courses join us on the intro dives for free for a few extra dives where they can work on things like finetuning their buoyancy(intros in the morning, course dives in the afternoon). We've got a guy who did his OW+AOW with us who's got about 15-16 dives done on the course, and now he's doing EFR and then rescue as well.

 

[davidctomlinson]

Chit, I thought it was normal to feel scared and unsure of myself when I first started diving. I only panicked about 8 times on my first dive.

I took the Discover Dive (a few hours and a walk-in), PADI online course (it took a week) , and PADI OWD (3 day weekend with about 4-6 hours in the pool).

Since then, AOWD, Nitrox, Deep Diving courses/certifications, and I now have about 25 dives in. However, I look at all the ways a diver can die, from reading forums, accident reports, news, etc., and I know I'm not ready for some of them. So, I dive with a dive master or instructor on all of my dives. It helps that I often dive with my boss (instructor level, 20+ years, 1200+ dives) and other experienced divers.

I now feel that I can survive in waters < 30 meters, and I'm OK in waters < 40 meters, but it's all a matter of experience. What to do in strong down/up currents, low air conditions, etc. I don't know that a longer OWD course would help.

 

[knowone]

I thought all those forums etc, were to look at all the ways a diver can dive.