Upper Tank mounting points: Bungees and/or chokers

[Caveeagle]

I've been reading up on kr2y5's thread on FM tank positioning and am thankful for the documentation of his experimentation and learnings. I did buy a SM book, but the pics are not really good at showing the detail I am looking for.

**And before anyone jumps in with the obvious.. I am considering instructors, but also like to tinker with things a bit myself**

So, I tried my first attempt at SM this weekend using a HOG sidemount BC, D1 regs and a pair of HP100s filled to around 2000psi each.

Mostly, I am having trouble visualizing how to mount the tank front(top) attachments for both entry with hard clips to the chest D-rings, and using the loop bungees. I started off using the supplied hardware on the bungees (quick fasteners connected to large bolt snaps), and Dive Rite chokers on the tank necks. This sucked! Even with the bungees pulled all the way up (by my buddy), the fronts still hung too low. Plus, I found it impossible to reach the bolt snap to release the necks.

If anyone has close up pics of how they attach the fronts, I would appreciate it. I was thinking of going with shorter chokers made from paracord and keep the bolt snap on the tank side. I am just not sure how to manage the bungees once in the water. It seems like you need to bolt-snap then down so you can reach back and grab them. Do you just leave the extra hardware there dangling?

FYI on Rear attachments....
I have the currently attached to the cam-bands with around 2" of paracord. Based on tbone's comments on the other thread, I should shorten them to 0". Right now I have the regs in a valve-down orientation, so if my understanding is right, I want the rear points at 10-O-Clock (right side) and 2-0-clock (Left side).

 

[Bennno]

You don't need chokers, the bungee just goes over the hand wheel. In Florida, lot's of people use an extra loop of line with a boltsnap that goes over the valve so you can clip off the tank in the water and attach the top of the tank to the D-RIng. You don't really need that though, it's more of a convenience thing.

Based on tbone's comments on the other thread, I should shorten them to 0".

Yeah, I wouldn't do that. It makes the tanks more difficult to handle, especially when you're wearing gloves, it's a major PITA.

 

[tursiops]

15 minutes with an instructor/mentor will replace 150 confusing and contradictory posts.

 

[Caveeagle]

15 minutes with an instructor/mentor will replace 150 confusing and contradictory posts.

Or, one clear picture showing a good example.

Yes, I have at least one mentor available and several instructors I am considering. There are lots of other factors here, that I won't get into. I travel a lot for work and have odd hours and schedule. And honestly, lately am not good a planning things in advance. So I can sneak out for a quick dive in a nearby spring when a window of time opens up. Lining up time with a friend or instructor is not quite so easy.

So, your point is well taken.. but did not really tie back to my question.

 

[Caveeagle]

You don't need chokers, the bungee just goes over the hand wheel. In Florida, lot's of people use an extra loop of line with a boltsnap that goes over the valve so you can clip off the tank in the water and attach the top of the tank to the D-RIng. You don't really need that though, it's more of a convenience thing.

I think I understand how to loop the bungee over the knob. I want to understand how (and where) you tie that bungee down when entering the water so you can easily find it without help. And, why the sidemount BCs seem to all come with the bolt snap and fast-connecter on the bungee if nobody is planning to use them.

I was assuming that the choker with a bolt snap clipped to the chest D-Ring to give you a strong connection when entering the water and staging the tanks is not practical. Like this past weekend, there were lots of locals around the entry point. I felt ok setting one tank in the water, but wanted to leave the left side attached climbing in/out of the water, so I used a double-ender to attached my DR chokers to my chest D-Ring. This allowed be to keep at least one hand free when climbing out.

Yeah, I wouldn't do that. It makes the tanks more difficult to handle, especially when you're wearing gloves, it's a major PITA.

Thanks.. I definitely want to take in all opinions so I know what the options are for me to try. Having the rears on a ~2" cord worked 'ok' for the stage I am at. The fronts are my bigger issue, so I will probably leave them alone until I sort out the other issues.

 

[tbone1004]

no firm top attachment points needed as Bent said, however they are convenient. I use them on all of my tanks as I prefer to carry them in and out of the water attached to my rig for convenience.

ditch the ring bungee system. It does work in certain circumstances, but cave diving isn't one of the ones that it really merits the downsides.

With the HOG bcd, ditch the quicklink and bolt snap and replace it with a piece of paracord, cave line, basically anything to keep the bungee under control when not attached to a tank. The loop needs to be long enough to allow the bungee in it's relaxed state to chill out in a certain position under your shoulder. I'm not an anatomist but if you cross your arm under your armpit towards the back of your scapula and rotate your shoulder, you can feel a bone moving. This is the bottom bit of your scapula, and the bottom of the loop bungee should rest there. The cave line should be tight enough that it isn't loose to get caught up in anything, but not so tight that it is pulling on the bungee. This will then get tied to that weird slide lock with the offset loops. This slide lock should be in-line with the bottom of your sternum to promote proper bungee placement. You can put the d-ring on that, or leave it off, it is up to you, doesn't really matter. I don't put a d-ring there because it is stupid low on the harness and chose to put them back up at the top of the shoulder straps.

this is a little bit higher than where I put mine, but Edd likes his tanks up a little higher than I do. The important part of this is to make sure the bit between the bungee and the shoulder attachment is long enough to put the bottom of that loop in the right position.

The leash is literally just a loop of paracord, gold line, etc with a bolt snap on it that is slipped over the valve or prusik'd over the valve to clip off to the front d-rings. Again, this has to be long enough to allow you to get the valves in the right position, otherwise they have to be unclipped to get the tanks to ride back where they are supposed to. I don't like to unclip them as a bungee failure or release can allow the first stages to fall and could pull a reg out of your mouth.

also of note is that the cam bands are heavy and act to bring your center of gravity closer to your feet which is bad. I much prefer worm gears, especially in wetsuit diving. If you are using the ring bungees, then you can put a metal ring on the loop bungee itself, clip in and snap over the valve, just make sure that the line connecting the bungee to the front d-rings is strong enough. Paracord or gold line obviously is. The ring on the loop bungee gives you something rigid to grab with your thumb to hook the bungee as well which is nice with gloves on. I find it is unnecessary even with thick wetsuit gloves on and have since removed the rings from my rig since I don't dive with dry gloves, and usually my cold water diving is done backmount.

Also of note is that if you are putting your tanks back where they should be, don't use the 5th port on the bottom of the D1's as that will only cause you a tremendous amount of grief. It works for the razor guys because they don't put their tanks that far back, but if you have them all the way back, you can't use the 5th port unless the valves are pointing straight up or down.

 

[Bennno]

I want to understand how (and where) you tie that bungee down when entering the water so you can easily find it without help. And, why the sidemount BCs seem to all come with the bolt snap and fast-connecter on the bungee if nobody is planning to use them.

The boltsnap and the connector attach the bungee to the shoulder strap so you can find the bungee.

The 'strong connection' and the choker is used for the 'ring bungee sytsme'. DiveRite has a video on youtube explaining the ring bungee system. The HOG doesn't come with the extra ring though.

 

[kr2y5]

The bolt snap on the bungee is not meant to be connected to the tank. When the bungee is looped around the valve, the bolt snap does not serve any useful purpose, and I leave mine dangling from the D-ring (on my harness, there is actually an end loop next to a D-ring just for that purpose). When the bungee is not connected to the valve, the purpose of the bolt snap is to keep it somewhere in the front where you can trace back to it and grab it. Some instructors recommend tying a small bungee on the aside of a tri-glide and threading one end of the loop bungee through it to achieve the same effect with less hardware.

The bolt snap around the tank neck is only used to carry out of the water. Some instructors will tell you to use a double-ender instead, and unclip it to keep your D-ring uncluttered. I leave mine on, it does not bother me. In the water, this bolt snap is not carrying any weight, since the bungee does all the job.

I'm not sure my pictures have instructional value or whether I'm doing it wrong, but FWIW, this is how the left tank hangs off me. Hope this helps (and if anyone finds any problems with that, your feedback would be appreciated). Obviously, this is going to look differently in the water, this is taken in my house, and right now my heavy steel tank is sagging under the force of gravity. In the water, everything rises and falls in place.

Btw, ignore the second thicker bungee, I'm using that for my deco bottle.

New_IMG_20160705_110947.jpg

• kr2y5
• Jul 5, 2016

 

[Caveeagle]

That picture is great! Thanks a lot. It's gives a better visual of how you (can) attach your tank neck that the $50 sidemount book on my desk!

I did find the Dive Rite video on the 'ring' system. So at this point, I plan to try out both options..

1) ke2y5's method: Bungee down to the knobs. Supplied quicklinks to keep the bungees located on the shoulder strap. Paracord chockers are there for a hard attatch when carrying them out of the water.

2) The DR/Ring method: Insert a ring between the bungee and the quick-link, then bring the bolt-snap around the the chest strap attatch point. Us the chokers to attach a bolt snap to the tank neck and that attaches to the ring under your armpit. (I may try this just because I have some rings and the chokers already).


Re the picture above... Is that hose coming straight up off your 1st stage your 2nd stage short hose? In my case, it felt like my reg was tugging down a bit, but I had the hose pointing down and making a 'U' turn up to my neck with a 90* swivel.

 

[tbone1004]

1. is exactly how most people in cave country that I have seen are attaching if using the loop bungees. I have removed the quick links because I it still leaves the tank valves lower on the body. I have a very deep chest, so I have had to replace them with line. Not a problem at all, just a thing. A quick link limits how high it can go because it is a hard attachment. That bolt snap should never have to be removed or cut loose, and should never hold any weight, so I have replaced all of that metal with a piece of line.

2. I don't recommend this, but to each his own. This is extremely limiting in how high the tank will sit because the bottom of the o-ring has to basically be at the breaking point of your back/side and it's thoroughly annoying to strap in like this. Very awkward and really doesn't give you any benefits.

His first stages are rigged correctly if he wants them first stages up. I prefer them facing down, but the hose outlets are the same. Yes that is the secondary coming straight up. Both LP hoses should face up on the left bottle, and both should face down on the right bottle for ideal hose routing.