Diving Education Today

[rstofer]

I'm not advocating 100 hours/12 diver for everyone, a good base can be had in about 50 hours with 6 dives, half the time.

Works for me! But I'm not satisfied with 6 dives. I don't think 6 supervised dives in cold water leads to guaranteed retention.

The mentoring thing does work. It helps the new diver, it gives the experienced diver a change to get back to basics and reinforce basic skills. And it's fun to watch someone "get it." Often that's a lot more fun than seeing the same thing that you've seen on thousands of dives before. Going diving with a new diver is often like going out with a new set of eyes.

But it puts an awful burden on the 'mentor'. Any failings in the training of the OW diver are now their responsibility. That's fine if the mentor is really qualified - like an instructor. But just an AOW diver or another OW with 50 dives or something like that just doesn't impress me. Maybe someone with 1000 dives. Then again, I'm not impressed by instructors with 100 dives.

You proposed 50 hours, 6 dives for OW. Fine but I would propose 100 hours 21 dives. Get some bottom time! Then dive with a mentor. Or anybody else for that matter.

I just think that, if retention is to be a metric (and I don't agree that it should be) the new diver needs sufficient exposure to really be independent. And I really believe those first 20 dives, or so, need to be with an instructor.

Maybe I'm taking too much on myself, but those do not sound like situations that would bother me much. But one again, you're confusing mentoring with insta-buddies ... not the same thing, though an experienced mentor or instructor can often help even an insta-buddy.

I retain the memories just to remind myself why I never wanted to be a dive professional.

There are people who can better handle these memories. But I can tell you for certain that it is terrifying to surface and find a diver has disappeared. Sure, after we did a search at varying depths and for varying diameters, we discovered she had gone back to shore. But we didn't know it when we surfaced!

Frankly I think that anyone going out on a small boat with any role other than sitting there with a life jacket on should be able to tie a bowline left or right handed, coming and going. Extending that to divers in cold water ... you'd best be able to do it with mitts (or these days for some, dry gloves) on.

Yup! The bowline is the most useful knot on the planet. Of course I do a bit of sailing so I use them all the time. You should also be able to tie one behind your back.

And you should be able to throw a tugboat-bowline while running down the dock. You never know when you might need to toss a line to an errant boater or swimmer.

I won't get into whether or not the line floats and whether the rescue team anchored the bitter end before tossing the line. I will say the class lost $100 worth of line. Not my squad, of course. We just drove over the line and fouled the prop! From a Man Overboard class on SF Bay...

Richard

 

[Kingpatzer]

Economy has always drove industry. Not all industries were regulated. The food industry for example. Greed drove people to sell sub-standard food and it worked well until sickness and death caused government involvement.

Demonstrating my point. When talking about aggregate populations, reason does not drive behavior, incentives do. The economic incentive will not be ignored. That's not a matter of ethics. Ethics don't come into play in group dynamics. It is merely the reality of aggregate behaviors given particular rules to the game.

I do not see "my quest" as hopeless. Do I expect to personally change big business? No, I doubt that would happen. I do think however if people open their eyes to the big picture, it may change some attitudes towards teaching. Too many people imo believe anything they are told by companies that only want their money.

I don't see this as ethical to just turn a blind eye.

So are you stating that you believe members of this board to be unethical?

 

[InTheDrink]

If we can turn the conversation off certification and agencies for a moment...

For me the key thing is personal improvement. I want to improve. I do not want to be 'adequate'. I do not want to be able to dive at the minimum level.

I want to be amazing. I want to be safe, skilful and knowledgeable. I'm not diving because I have to, I'm diving because I love it. And anything I can learn to make me a better diver I want to embrace.

For me this is the key. It's not about minimum standards. Minimum standards should be the exception not the rule. Why?

Because being a good or great diver makes diving an amazing experience (not that I'm either by a long shot) no matter what the local conditions. Diving is a joy in its own right. It does not need any fishes. The absolute pleasure one has when on a dive, for the first time, when you manage to pan out, back fin, is amazing. Is it necessary? Well no, not to stay alive. But to continue to learn, and love diving? That for me is what it's all about. I'm pretty new to this diving thing but already I look at some instructors and wonder where the hell they learned to dive. Cos they're ****.

This isn't about standards, its about creating the conditions where someone isn't satisfied with being adequate. It's about creating conditions where there is always something to learn, something to achieve, something to strive for. It is this which sates the human condition, not some quick win.

Dive until you're the best then try to find someone better. Repeat.

Love.
J

 

[DCBC]

Ethics don't come into play in group dynamics. It is merely the reality of aggregate behaviors given particular rules to the game.

I teach as an individual, not as a group (I'm not possessed, nor do I suffer from multiple personality disorder).

So are you stating that you believe members of this board to be unethical?

If they are the ones certifying divers that shouldn't be out of the pool, YES!

 

[FishOutUvH2O]

My post #297 provides some information. It's getting quite long to read the whole thread, but if you're able to sift through the cynicism, you may find it interesting.

I read post #297, which I appreciate you pointing out. I'm not sure I agree with the swimming part. I believe if your stupid enough to think that you should be in any body of water deeper than a bathtub without knowing how to swim, then thank you for removing your DNA from the gene pool (no pun intended).

I still don't see a problem with the PADI OW course. I do think it's pretty good. . . As a very basic start. Although I will concede that the limits they recommend should be tightened to exclude diving without a more experienced diver. Where I truly agree with you that some agency standards (no names. . .PADI) are pathetically asinine, are the advanced ratings. How the hell can you have the experience necessary to be a "Master Diver" at 50 dives?!?! Or even worse a "Divemaster" at 60 dives?!?! And then my favorite, an Open Water Instructor at a mere 100 dives!!! I'm heading toward 300 dives and I'm still learning my butt-hole from my elbows.

So, my fear is that cherry OW divers are getting stuck with these clowns who are actually arrogant enough to think they're an experienced DM or instructor with all of 60-100 dives because the card in their wallet says they are.

 

[Kingpatzer]

I teach as an individual, not as a group (I'm not possessed, nor do I suffer from multiple personality disorder).

You teach as an individual. But the scuba industry functions as a collection of groups inter-related groups. Populations don't function as individuals. While it is often easiest to talk about issues from the personal perspective, when talking about how groups function that is rather meaningless. Group behaviors are a thing all to themselves.

Your ideal goal is not achievable through self-regulation.

 

[Thalassamania]

The scuba "industry" does not teach. I too teach as an individual, virtually unaffected by the vulgarities and stupidities of the scuba "industry."

 

[Kingpatzer]

Thal, as long as people want to learn to dive, they will find someone to teach them. And the two top drivers will be "how much and how long." Your situation as you've described it here seems relatively unique. But even if everyone where in precisely similar situations, then all you've done is turn the clock back to the time when a group of instructors get together and go "You know, there's an opportunity here for us to make a really good living here . . ."

 

[Thalassamania]

The two top drivers for whom? Perhaps the people you work with, clearly not those that I do.

As to "if everyone where in precisely similar situations," is what what you that where we all in the same circumstances there'd always be someone sufficiently gready to shortcut the program, shortchange the student and redefine the language so as to make clear communication almost impossible? Perhaps you're right ... but I, for one, am proud to have stood up against that crap for my entire career, despite the lies, character assassination, and missrepresentation I've been subjected to.

 

[DCBC]

I read post #297, which I appreciate you pointing out. I'm not sure I agree with the swimming part. I believe if your stupid enough to think that you should be in any body of water deeper than a bathtub without knowing how to swim, then thank you for removing your DNA from the gene pool (no pun intended).

Yes I agree it's suicide. It is however a criminal offense for someone to aid you in taking your own life. Why would you being a scuba instructor be any different?

I'm heading toward 300 dives and I'm still learning my butt-hole from my elbows.

Me too; I'm still on the learning curve. I think the "Zero to Hero" concept is a product of an instant gratification Society. The level of knowledge and experience required, just isn't what it once was. With the requirements going down, this can be expected.

So, my fear is that cherry OW divers are getting stuck with these clowns who are actually arrogant enough to think they're an experienced DM or instructor with all of 60-100 dives because the card in their wallet says they are.

I agree; a slippery slope indeed.